"Crusader" metal... interesting! I've heard a few other bands playing with this sort of sound, and I quite like the ideas.

It's a pity about the obsessive need to employ death metal vocals at inappropriate places... and I stand by everything I've ever said about prog metal and form. This tends to suffer from the same impression that if you go off at a sudden tangent, you can hide the fact that you lack the imagination to develop what has gone before.

The quasi-operatic vocals are nice - but tend to confuse things a little. Are the band going flat out for a sound that evokes the era of Knights Templar, or are they going for a vaguely Wagnerian approach to it? The latter seems more likely, and is somewhat lazy, IMO.

Although my comments lean hard on the negative, I do think that there are some great symphonic sounds and ideas there - but the overall standard of musicianship lets it down for me. It's one thing to have and realise great ideas, but quite another to combine those ideas into works of art.

But don't let that stop any prog metal fan from checking it out (as if anything I said would... ) - I think you were right to draw attention to this band, as there is certainly some potential there.

I'm interested to see what the prog metal fans will make of it...

Valarius wrote: I'll have to hear some songs before I judge, but usually I don't like metal bands with female vocals because they do a lot of that growling/shouting stuff... I'll have to check them out anyway.

Check out The Gathering, they have female vocals ONLY (at least their newer albums starting with Mandylion, the previous ones suck anyway).

Epica is not really progressive metal...more along the lines of symphonic goth metal.  Epica reminds me of bands After Forever, Penumbra, Within Temptation and Nightwish...

Certif1ed wrote: It's a pity about the obsessive need to employ death metal vocals at inappropriate places... and I stand by everything I've ever said about prog metal and form. This tends to suffer from the same impression that if you go off at a sudden tangent, you can hide the fact that you lack the imagination to develop what has gone before.

"Growling" is associated with other more sombre/dark musical genres that you are evidently not as familiar or comfortable with.  It's not an "obsessive need to employ" death style vocals, it's the genre and style of music the band is interested in playing.  The band has plenty of imagination by including the good and the bad, or if you prefer, the good and the evil - the angel and the devil.  Epica is perhaps not the best example as the music is OK but not much better than average.  For a better feel for the genre, After Forever, Nightwish, Tristania, Within Temptation and Penumbra all have a little more to offer...musically speaking.  Some of these bands do occasionally cross into progressive metal territory, but the genre of music here is definitely deeply rooted in gothic music.  Think more along the lines of Evanescence and Lacuna Coil but with more symphonic undertones and the occasional death vocals...

Epica are influenced by Kamelot, who are power metal with a few progressive elements, so something got into epica.  At certain point I've really liked this band and listened to 'The Phantom Agony' many many times, now I don't listen to it, but i remember many of the beatufil moments in their music.

Their new album, which I've heard only once, is less interesting IMO, it is more bombastic but I didn't find any of the songs really interesting.

Vanwarp wrote: Certif1ed wrote: It's a pity about the obsessive need to employ death metal vocals at inappropriate places... and I stand by everything I've ever said about prog metal and form. This tends to suffer from the same impression that if you go off at a sudden tangent, you can hide the fact that you lack the imagination to develop what has gone before. "Growling" is associated with other more sombre/dark musical genres that you are evidently not as familiar or comfortable with.  It's not an "obsessive need to employ" death style vocals, it's the genre and style of music the band is interested in playing.  The band has plenty of imagination by including the good and the bad, or if you prefer, the good and the evil - the angel and the devil.  Epica is perhaps not the best example as the music is OK but not much better than average.  For a better feel for the genre, After Forever, Nightwish, Tristania, Within Temptation and Penumbra all have a little more to offer...musically speaking.  Some of these bands do occasionally cross into progressive metal territory, but the genre of music here is definitely deeply rooted in gothic music.  Think more along the lines of Evanescence and Lacuna Coil but with more symphonic undertones and the occasional death vocals...

I am perfectly aware of most musical genres, although I totally disagree with the silly subgenre labelling that people seem to have a fetish for - and I feel comfortable with genres that would make your brains curl out of your ears in protest!

It's contextually inappropriate in my opinion.

Maybe I should have made it a bit clearer...

vogre: Kamelot - that was the band I was trying to think of for comparison - thanks!

vogre wrote: Epica are influenced by Kamelot, who are power metal with a few progressive elements, so something got into epica.  At certain point I've really liked this band and listened to 'The Phantom Agony' many many times, now I don't listen to it, but i remember many of the beatufil moments in their music.

Simone Simons does a song with Kamelot on "The Black Halo" (Kamelot's new release). They have a video of it (The Haunting) on Kamelots website... I think it's pretty well done. Also, Epica has toured with Kamelot... that might be a good show!

Certif1ed wrote: I am perfectly aware of most musical genres, although I totally disagree with the silly subgenre labelling that people seem to have a fetish for - and I feel comfortable with genres that would make your brains curl out of your ears in protest! It's contextually inappropriate in my opinion.

Unfortunately, labeling musical subgenres is necessary to help those looking for similar bands who play the same genre and style of music they crave...however silly that might sound to you.

Contextually is one of those words that I find very confining when talking about music in general.  It doesn't leave much room for the music to spread beyond what it already is...just my 2 cents!

Certif1ed:

"I stand by everything I've ever said about prog metal and form."

"contextually inappropriate..."

In my view, these statements are very confining!  It really doesn't leave much room for the music to spread beyond what it already is...forget about form and inappropriate use of growling vocals in prog music...it's all good for adding more variety/diversity/originality to the music.

Vanwarp wrote:   Certif1ed: "I stand by everything I've ever said about prog metal and form." "contextually inappropriate..." In my view, these statements are very confining!  It really doesn't leave much room for the music to spread beyond what it already is...forget about form and inappropriate use of growling vocals in prog music...it's all good for adding more variety/diversity/originality to the music.

It is, but it needs to be contextually appropriate.

Just because you don't understand what I'm getting at, there's no need to dismiss it, young grasshopper

Certif1ed wrote: It is, but it needs to be contextually appropriate. Just because you don't understand what I'm getting at, there's no need to dismiss it, young grasshopper

Oh, I understand the confining nature of your musical tastes, and there's nothing wrong with having musical preferences, but to state that the use of death vocals "needs to be contextually appropriate" is in my view, very narrow-minded of you.  I'm afraid you're the one who doesn't get it...   

Vanwarp wrote: Certif1ed wrote: It is, but it needs to be contextually appropriate. Just because you don't understand what I'm getting at, there's no need to dismiss it, young grasshopper Oh, I understand the confining nature of your musical tastes, and there's nothing wrong with having musical preferences, but to state that the use of death vocals "needs to be contextually appropriate" is in my view, very narrow-minded of you.  I'm afraid you're the one who doesn't get it...

IMO the use of death vocals in a beauty and the beast way is not appropriate in 90% of all such music that I've heard. That includes ALL of Epica and ALL of After Forever.

IMO it's much more appropriate to use many styles of vocals, including growling, but only in appropriate situations. The problem with Epica is that the man always growls, and the woman always sings in an operatic way. Nightwish have the same problem (with the operatic singing).

IMO the perfect example of adequate and at the same time very diverse vocals is Ayreon's Into The Electric Castle. It also features death growls ... for the character "Death", which seems fitting.

Trouserpress recently posted a good definition of what is prog for him. It boils down to prog artists should not be limited to their genre when choosing the elements of their music. Epica don't seem to be free in that regard, because the use of growling seems to be a must for them. They are confining themselves to the beauty and the beast pattern.

Vanwarp wrote: Certif1ed wrote: It is, but it needs to be contextually appropriate. Just because you don't understand what I'm getting at, there's no need to dismiss it, young grasshopper Oh, I understand the confining nature of your musical tastes, and there's nothing wrong with having musical preferences, but to state that the use of death vocals "needs to be contextually appropriate" is in my view, very narrow-minded of you.  I'm afraid you're the one who doesn't get it...

You cannot possiby understand my musical tastes, or you would not have thought that they were confining.

Everything has a context - it is not confining at all, but may be the exact opposite. Therefore, to state that a particular style should have a context is merely an observation of its nature, and to find something out of context is a polite way of saying that it plain doesn't work.

The composer chooses the context - not the listener, therefore it is not me who is doing any confining, but the composer and the rules of music.

To use a mulitplicity of pigeon-holes or subgenres is confining in the extreme I would casually observe...

Form is one of the 5 basic elements of music. To ignore it in music is akin to ignoring gravity in architecture.

You might be surprised what I do get with regard to music

Certif1ed wrote: Trouserpress recently posted a good definition of what is prog for him. It boils down to prog artists should not be limited to their genre when choosing the elements of their music. Epica don't seem to be free in that regard, because the use of growling seems to be a must for them. They are confining themselves to the beauty and the beast pattern.

If you agree with Trouserpress definition of prog, then I really don't understand what the problem is since he says exactly what I've been saying.  Prog artist should not be limited (not confined) to their genre when choosing the elements (death growls/opera singers/whatever vocal style you want...) of their music.

Simply said, they chose beauty and the beast vocal styles to convey their "gothic style" music to the masses, instead of just using one voice, one single form of vocal pattern.  For this genre and style of music many find the use of "beauty and the beast" vocal stylings to be appropriate, in this context.  It's not a pattern at all, it's a little bit like you said, conforming to form within the genre and style of music they are playing...   

Certif1ed wrote: You cannot possiby understand my musical tastes, or you would not have thought that they were confining.

I understand your statements which reflects much about your musical tastes, however confining I may find them to be... 

Certif1ed wrote: Everything has a context - it is not confining at all, but may be the exact opposite. Therefore, to state that a particular style should have a context is merely an observation of its nature, and to find something out of context is a polite way of saying that it plain doesn't work.

When stating something plainly doesn't work, that's is a clear thought that cannot be misunderstood.  It is one's own opinion about the music at hand.  It doesn't mean you're opinion is true or correct.  Much of what you consider to be out of context may be as you say, the exact opposite for others who enjoy whatever it is you found to be "out of context."  

Certif1ed wrote: Form is one of the 5 basic elements of music. To ignore it in music is akin to ignoring gravity in architecture.

Form is...form.  Where does it say (music theory) that artists (bands) should conform to certain vocal styles for to use death growls in certain particular genres and styles of music is not conforming to the 5 basic elements of music?

If that's not "confining" music to remain with certain boundaries, I don't know what is?

Certif1ed wrote: Music has a way of "confining" itself within boundaries. It's up to composers to find those boundaries and push them in an appropriate and contextual manner.

Yes, but I'm afraid your definition of "appropriate contextual manner" and mine, differ considerably.

Certif1ed wrote: I said that I don't think the vocals work in that context - and you seem to be saying that I cannot say that, because the band can do what they like and it will always work. This would infer that you are saying that you could pick up a bunch of instruments, play any old thing for an hour on each and create a masterpiece.

No, if the music does not follow the basic rules of music theory...it will or has the potential to sound extremely sh*tty - no chance for a masterpiece - I don't think so.  However, the choice of vocal styles really has nothing to do with music theory but more to do with the genre and style of music one wishes to convey.  I don't know of a better way of explaining it...the band is in a way "conforming" to a particular genre or subgenre of music.  In Epica's case it is Symphonic Goth, in this context the music and vocals do work, compare it to the other bands I mentioned and you will find common ground as well as perhaps more interesting use of orchestrations...