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JJLehto 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
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Points: 34550
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 Topic: The thin line between insanity and genius.
Posted: March 11 2011 at 15:12 |
 Dean wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
Well now that you've settled that Dean I guess that makes you some type of genius!
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And I'm mildly dyslexic.
damn. 
Does that mean I'm mildly genius? |
Sadly so. If you couldn't tie your shoes or remember your address then you'd be a super genius.
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Luna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 28 2010
Location: Funky Town
Status: Offline
Points: 12794
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Posted: March 11 2011 at 07:16 |
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That reminds me: I have a friend who has been diagnosed with ADHD and dislexia for a few years now, and he is far from genius.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 11 2011 at 07:12 |
(De)progressive wrote:
Wow, in my absence so much stuff seem to happened here.
Well about the mental illnesses many can say the odds are quite few, and when it happens it can be considered as a coincidence which maybe really is, but I'm sure there is a definite relation with neurological problems of well known scientists, musicians, artists which is generally taken granted of their remarkable talents in their own areas, while they haven't much suffered from their illnesses as a real insane human being, just with the lack of their some abilities cause their life to become a bit hard in some perspectives. |
I see where you are coming from, but surely everyone has some lack of ability that affects their lives, and everyone has talents that mark them as above normal in someway. Normal is not a narrow band of average abilities, it's a generalisation of many abilities and traits. There are several well documented cases of comedians who are bipolar, but they are anomalous - there are more comedians who are not and more people suffering from bipolar-ism who are not comedians. Some clouds look like this:
but not all of them.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 11 2011 at 07:04 |
JJLehto wrote:
Well now that you've settled that Dean I guess that makes you some type of genius!
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And I'm mildly dyslexic.
damn.
Does that mean I'm mildly genius?
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What?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 11 2011 at 06:58 |
Negoba wrote:
So Rob, after dealing with lots of "gifted" people. The line between "Asperger's" and "gifted" is mild. You're a smart guy. I suspect you married a smart girl. We're living in a era of selective breeding for uber-nerds. (Mine are 10 and 8, if I'm projecting on you ignore me.)
So frankly, I'm preparing my kids for being out of the norm. While it doesn't take a gifted person to appreciate prog, this is one of a million places on the net that is going to accumulate really smart people. It's a different reality from normal human existence.
For example, the guy the played rhythm guitar in the Metallica cover band that I played in in 1991 helped write the orignal program for Netscape that is now Mozilla. He's a millionaire. But he's just another guy like us that likes music and is smart.
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While I'm a skeptic over this thread topic in general, I can recognise some familiarity in what you are saying, though I am still reluctant to draw any conclusions or see generalised correlations between intellegence and unusual behaviour (however it is defined).
We probably are breading uber-nerds (the day my daughter realised she was a nerd was an amusing one).
Every parent in our "eating disorder" therapy group was middle-class, of "professional" status of some kind and all were noticeably intelligent if education and career is a measure (one couple were both GPs, two of the fathers were engineers, one father was a bank manager, three of the mother's were teachers, one was high-up in the media broadcasting etc.) - however, at the outset we were given a choice - one-on-one counselling or group sessions - perhaps it was our eduction/career status that allowed us to see the benefit of shared experience and so skewed the make-up of that group - idk - without knowing the make-up of other groups or the education/career status of those who elected to take 1-on-1 sessions it is unwise to draw conclusions - 5 families is a poor sample.
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(De)progressive
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 24 2010
Location: Turkey
Status: Offline
Points: 495
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Posted: March 11 2011 at 06:43 |
Wow, in my absence so much stuff seem to happened here. Well about the mental illnesses many can say the odds are quite few, and when it happens it can be considered as a coincidence which maybe really is, but I'm sure there is a definite relation with neurological problems of well known scientists, musicians, artists which is generally taken granted of their remarkable talents in their own areas, while they haven't much suffered from their illnesses as a real insane human being, just with the lack of their some abilities cause their life to become a bit hard in some perspectives.
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''Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment.'' (Friedrich Nietzsche)
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 11 2011 at 06:22 |
Epignosis wrote:
We don't have a GP (around here, it's a Family Physician)- a visit will cost us $150 or so- $140 more than we have at the moment. We took him to five professionals in Florida when we lived there and, sorry to say, they are all dumbasses. "No madam, our son does not suffer from depression and does not need special meds."
Eating disorders- funny you should mention that. Our son eats nothing but pasta, dairy, or yeast rolls. He might also eat chicken nuggets. He likes ice cream too. He refuses to eat fruits,vegetables, or anything else. It's not because they are veggies, but because they differ in color- he will eat some bread I bake if it is one color, but not other bread if it looks "funny" to him. We sometimes are successful in forcing a vitamin down his gullet, but it's a painful experience (for all of us).
His biggest thing is not being able to communicate well and not understanding cause and effect- I am hoping against hope that he grows out of this.
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Thankfully we didn't have to pay for medical treatment or medication - I shudder to think how much that would have cost, just the days off work and travel expenses every week for two years was enough. Often the side effects of the Meds were worse than the condition they were supposed to alleviate, it took (what appeared to be) a lot of trial and error to find something that actually worked (we reached the point of telling the docs no more anti-depressants, they're making her psychotic - that's when they put her on anti-psychotics...)
What you are describing doesn't sound like an eating disorder, but I'm no expert, I only have experience of an anorexic and while we first noticed that as "fussy eating" it was towards foods that "make you fat". Kids have funny eating habits and they often grow out of it - it's of concern when it affects health. (Have you tried putting tinted glasses on him while he eats - if the colour affects him, change the colour - kids eat with their eyes more than their taste-buds - make him veggie ice cream)
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: March 10 2011 at 21:28 |
Negoba wrote:
For others, ADHD is overdiagnosed, but yeah it's real. And yeah, everyone pays better attention on speed. |
Yeah, this overdiagnosis trend is frustrating for my family because my brother-in-law has serious ADHD as sort of a subset of his general mental disability (which no one has been able to succinctly classify other than being in the general autism spectrum). When he doesn't take his meds, he can literally check out when you need him to pay attention - you can see in his eyes that he is somewhere else in a way that "normal" folks don't really experience.
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: March 10 2011 at 21:24 |
From what you describe it doesn't sound too serious, although I don't know what you mean by not communicating well.
I don't know if my kids are geniuses, but they sure are crazy.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: March 10 2011 at 21:20 |
ADHD is overdiagnosed, but yeah it's real. And yeah, everyone pays better attention on speed.
Edited by Negoba - March 11 2011 at 15:36
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
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Posted: March 10 2011 at 21:17 |
Dean wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Dean wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
I am officially diagnosing my son with OCD.
He has incredible intelligence in terms of labeling things and processing information.
However, he has no concept of cause and effect.
He knows exactly how his train table should be, which includes over 100 pieces, yet he goes berserk if a piece of cargo is turned the wrong way in one of the many freight cars among the ensemble. It's baffling.
The boy is intelligent, yet small changes in routine or environment or the placement of cars or trains sets him into an inconsolable frenzy.
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Knowing someone with OCD is equal parts amusing, frustrating and baffling, though the amusing part soon disipates once you've deliberately messed things up just to watch them fret over it. (just kidding, I only did it once by way of an experiment). So much more pressing problems were manifest during that time I can't remember if we did anything about it or just left her to it - certainly it was the least of our immediate worries at the time and sometimes knowing that all the unused power sockets where switched off, or how many sugar sachets were in the condiment tray in a resturant (and that they were neatly arranged in order) was a good thing. [Not sure what I'm waffling on about, other than attempting to reassure you it's nothing to worry about in itself]... excessive washing was a problem, but only because over-use of Carex handwash was having a negative reaction - replacing carex with a more gentle soap fixed that. |
No hand washing (except when he sh*ts) is any problem. For us, it's order in his room or in a select few other aspects of life. His sister is very brilliant for a one-year-old, and will, well f**k things up for him. Whatever she does that is different (in any way) than what he expects, he will go crazy.
I work at home, Dean. I need the money to support us. Yet he drives me batsh*t insane. 
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I can sympathise Rob, unfortunately you have to adapt to it of find some way of working around it, since any change you try and make can make things worse - certainly talking to your GP is the first step.
I was talking to one parent during a family "support" session for parents of kids with eating disorders who complained that her daughter was always vacuuming the carpets. "Surely that's a good thing" I said - "Not at 3 o'clock in the *%$@ing morning it's not!" came the reply. |
We don't have a GP (around here, it's a Family Physician)- a visit will cost us $150 or so- $140 more than we have at the moment. We took him to five professionals in Florida when we lived there and, sorry to say, they are all dumbasses. "No madam, our son does not suffer from depression and does not need special meds."
Eating disorders- funny you should mention that. Our son eats nothing but pasta, dairy, or yeast rolls. He might also eat chicken nuggets. He likes ice cream too. He refuses to eat fruits,vegetables, or anything else. It's not because they are veggies, but because they differ in color- he will eat some bread I bake if it is one color, but not other bread if it looks "funny" to him. We sometimes are successful in forcing a vitamin down his gullet, but it's a painful experience (for all of us).
His biggest thing is not being able to communicate well and not understanding cause and effect- I am hoping against hope that he grows out of this.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 10 2011 at 21:09 |
Epignosis wrote:
Dean wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
I am officially diagnosing my son with OCD.
He has incredible intelligence in terms of labeling things and processing information.
However, he has no concept of cause and effect.
He knows exactly how his train table should be, which includes over 100 pieces, yet he goes berserk if a piece of cargo is turned the wrong way in one of the many freight cars among the ensemble. It's baffling.
The boy is intelligent, yet small changes in routine or environment or the placement of cars or trains sets him into an inconsolable frenzy.
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Knowing someone with OCD is equal parts amusing, frustrating and baffling, though the amusing part soon disipates once you've deliberately messed things up just to watch them fret over it. (just kidding, I only did it once by way of an experiment). So much more pressing problems were manifest during that time I can't remember if we did anything about it or just left her to it - certainly it was the least of our immediate worries at the time and sometimes knowing that all the unused power sockets where switched off, or how many sugar sachets were in the condiment tray in a resturant (and that they were neatly arranged in order) was a good thing. [Not sure what I'm waffling on about, other than attempting to reassure you it's nothing to worry about in itself]... excessive washing was a problem, but only because over-use of Carex handwash was having a negative reaction - replacing carex with a more gentle soap fixed that. |
No hand washing (except when he sh*ts) is any problem. For us, it's order in his room or in a select few other aspects of life. His sister is very brilliant for a one-year-old, and will, well f**k things up for him. Whatever she does that is different (in any way) than what he expects, he will go crazy.
I work at home, Dean. I need the money to support us. Yet he drives me batsh*t insane.
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I can sympathise Rob, unfortunately you have to adapt to it of find some way of working around it, since any change you try and make can make things worse - certainly talking to your GP is the first step.
I was talking to one parent during a family "support" session for parents of kids with eating disorders who complained that her daughter was always vacuuming the carpets. "Surely that's a good thing" I said - "Not at 3 o'clock in the *%$@ing morning it's not!" came the reply.
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What?
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Luna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 28 2010
Location: Funky Town
Status: Offline
Points: 12794
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Posted: March 10 2011 at 21:08 |
Negoba wrote:
Look up Asperger's....and then before we all say "Hey that's me."
ADHD is cannot keep attention on anything that's not moving 100 mph.
Asperger's includes attention so hyperacute that they seem like geniuses in what they pay attention to...and maybe they are.
So the question becomes "Does intelligence = attention?"
This from a guy who went to a high school that only accepts the top of 0.1% and I know there are several people on this board quite a bit brighter than me, and equal to the top students at my school.
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I don't believe that ADD ADHD, whatever you want to call it, is not real. I think that it is just the people who make pills and other junk's ways of making money. How do I know this? Well it seems that over half of the people in my grade have either ADD or ADHD. This is completly absurd. How can over 100 random people in one school have one similar disease? Sure the pills help them concentrate or whatever, but they help ANYONE concentrate because it is a drug, it can have more or less the same effect for everyone. I believe that what people believe to be ADD/ADHD is simply the person's personality.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: March 10 2011 at 21:08 |
So Rob, after dealing with lots of "gifted" people. The line between "Asperger's" and "gifted" is mild. You're a smart guy. I suspect you married a smart girl. We're living in a era of selective breeding for uber-nerds. (Mine are 10 and 8, if I'm projecting on you ignore me.)
So frankly, I'm preparing my kids for being out of the norm. While it doesn't take a gifted person to appreciate prog, this is one of a million places on the net that is going to accumulate really smart people. It's a different reality from normal human existence.
For example, the guy the played rhythm guitar in the Metallica cover band that I played in in 1991 helped write the orignal program for Netscape that is now Mozilla. He's a millionaire. But he's just another guy like us that likes music and is smart.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
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Posted: March 10 2011 at 21:00 |
Negoba wrote:
Look up Asperger's....and then before we all say "Hey that's me."
ADHD is cannot keep attention on anything that's not moving 100 mph.
Asperger's includes attention so hyperacute that they seem like geniuses in what they pay attention to...and maybe they are.
So the question becomes "Does intelligence = attention?"
This from a guy who went to a high school that only accepts the top of 0.1% and I know there are several people on this board quite a bit brighter than me, and equal to the top students at my school.
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He can maintain attention on something for hours. I am sure attention isn't a problem- he doesn't get cause and effect and he expects order in his life (even if this order varies from what mom and dad expect).
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
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Posted: March 10 2011 at 20:57 |
Dean wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
I am officially diagnosing my son with OCD.
He has incredible intelligence in terms of labeling things and processing information.
However, he has no concept of cause and effect.
He knows exactly how his train table should be, which includes over 100 pieces, yet he goes berserk if a piece of cargo is turned the wrong way in one of the many freight cars among the ensemble. It's baffling.
The boy is intelligent, yet small changes in routine or environment or the placement of cars or trains sets him into an inconsolable frenzy.
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Knowing someone with OCD is equal parts amusing, frustrating and baffling, though the amusing part soon disipates once you've deliberately messed things up just to watch them fret over it. (just kidding, I only did it once by way of an experiment). So much more pressing problems were manifest during that time I can't remember if we did anything about it or just left her to it - certainly it was the least of our immediate worries at the time and sometimes knowing that all the unused power sockets where switched off, or how many sugar sachets were in the condiment tray in a resturant (and that they were neatly arranged in order) was a good thing. [Not sure what I'm waffling on about, other than attempting to reassure you it's nothing to worry about in itself]... excessive washing was a problem, but only because over-use of Carex handwash was having a negative reaction - replacing carex with a more gentle soap fixed that. |
No hand washing (except when he sh*ts) is any problem. For us, it's order in his room or in a select few other aspects of life. His sister is very brilliant for a one-year-old, and will, well f**k things up for him. Whatever she does that is different (in any way) than what he expects, he will go crazy.
I work at home, Dean. I need the money to support us. Yet he drives me batsh*t insane.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: March 10 2011 at 20:54 |
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Well now that you've settled that Dean I guess that makes you some type of genius!
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: March 10 2011 at 20:54 |
Look up Asperger's....and then before we all say "Hey that's me."
ADHD is cannot keep attention on anything that's not moving 100 mph.
Asperger's includes attention so hyperacute that they seem like geniuses in what they pay attention to...and maybe they are.
So the question becomes "Does intelligence = attention?"
This from a guy who went to a high school that only accepts the top of 0.1% and I know there are several people on this board quite a bit brighter than me, and equal to the top students at my school.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 10 2011 at 20:53 |
JJLehto wrote:
No, but still I think it all helps goes to prove my point.
You mention dyslexia, it can always be coincidence of course but all those great minds having dyslexia?
OK, maybe in only a very few cases is the line between insane and genius that blurred, but as a general....great minds tend to be odd in some way. I think because it just can't handle their power!!!!
And you have a good point about us labeling someone "scatter brained" once we think them a genius, but my one friend is no genius, but is a very forgetful scatter brain and I have no problem letting him know it.
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I still think it is an over generalisation and an erroreous correlation. As I said, many more great minds didn't have dyslexia. Coincidence does happen, that's why someone invented a word for it.
Your last point illustrates mine too - a scatter-brain is not necessarily a genius, and a genius is not necessarily a scatter-brain, therefore zero correlation.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 10 2011 at 20:48 |
Epignosis wrote:
I am officially diagnosing my son with OCD.
He has incredible intelligence in terms of labeling things and processing information.
However, he has no concept of cause and effect.
He knows exactly how his train table should be, which includes over 100 pieces, yet he goes berserk if a piece of cargo is turned the wrong way in one of the many freight cars among the ensemble. It's baffling.
The boy is intelligent, yet small changes in routine or environment or the placement of cars or trains sets him into an inconsolable frenzy.
|
Knowing someone with OCD is equal parts amusing, frustrating and baffling, though the amusing part soon disipates once you've deliberately messed things up just to watch them fret over it. (just kidding, I only did it once by way of an experiment). So much more pressing problems were manifest during that time I can't remember if we did anything about it or just left her to it - certainly it was the least of our immediate worries at the time and sometimes knowing that all the unused power sockets where switched off, or how many sugar sachets were in the condiment tray in a resturant (and that they were neatly arranged in order) was a good thing. [Not sure what I'm waffling on about, other than attempting to reassure you it's nothing to worry about in itself]... excessive washing was a problem, but only because over-use of Carex handwash was having a negative reaction - replacing carex with a more gentle soap fixed that.
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The thin line between insanity and genius.
