The thin line between insanity and genius.
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Topic: The thin line between insanity and genius.
Posted By: (De)progressive
Subject: The thin line between insanity and genius.
Date Posted: March 08 2011 at 08:29
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I have been wanting to discuss this since long time but now I got the chance. What do you think about the connection between the mental illnesses and talent? This subject is often pops in to my mind when I think about Van Gogh. I can say the same thing about some other artists, writers and even musicians, for example Devin Townsend and his bipolar disorder. He often mentioned that his sickness was the main reason of his almost totally opposite polar albums like City and Ocean Machine-Biomech. Is it really true? Or any scientific explonation about it? I want to discuss this phenomenon. ------------- ''Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment.'' (Friedrich Nietzsche) 
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Replies:
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 08 2011 at 08:36
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There is a state called hypomania, which is slightly elevated mood, productivity, focus. When a person is in this state, they really have an advantage over others. There seem to be a blessed few who seem to live there. But most of the time it's part of a bipolar illness where people range from fully manic (going so fast that they start a million projects, finish none, don't sleep, do damaging impulsive things, etc., racing thoughts that eventually make no sense) to deep depression. Where hypomanic begins and manic ends is a matter of degree. Many of the most amazing folks in many fields are bipolar.
I personally think there is a correlation between obsessiveness and intelligence. That a big part of what we call intelligence is actually just the ability to completely submerge yourself in what you're learning.
And finally, true psychosis (losing the ability to fully grasp reality) certainly gives someone a brand new perspective. It's just that few are able to harness those new visions and ideas into something others can take in in a meaningful way. When it happens, it can be amazing.
Just a few thoughts. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: (De)progressive
Date Posted: March 08 2011 at 08:41
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Most of it makes sense, thanks. ------------- ''Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment.'' (Friedrich Nietzsche)
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Posted By: Prog Geo
Date Posted: March 08 2011 at 08:49
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Barisch,it looks that you influenced from our discussion.Yes,I believe that mental illnesses help to create nice works. ------------- Sonorous Meal show every Sunday at 20:00 (greek time) on http://www.justincaseradio.com |
Posted By: (De)progressive
Date Posted: March 08 2011 at 09:06
Haha, yeah it helped me to remind the fact that I was planning to post a thread about this subject, but it was in my mind for a long time. ------------- ''Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment.'' (Friedrich Nietzsche)
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Prog Geo wrote:Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: March 08 2011 at 09:53
Well, without a personality disorder, no creativity and no genious talents = the world would be a poorer place. That is an established fact now. So to those of you (......) who has got this diagnose; please use your creativity to something good for the mankind. Write a book, compose music, make a movie, become a comedian, a model or an actor. Or you can do something positive for the prog rock scene or your local community. That as an alternative to becoming a nuisance or a danger to the society. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: March 08 2011 at 09:59
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Although I would hardly call Devy a genius, I think there certainly is a correlation and most probably a causation. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 08 2011 at 11:05
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There is no line between insanity and genius - you can be insane and a genius, you can be sane and a genius, you can be sane and not a genius and insane and not a genius. If there were a line then it would suggest that it can be crossed, that once you become one you are no longer the other. If there is a correlation then it is no different to the correlation between having blue eyes and two legs. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: March 08 2011 at 11:08
^ That actually makes a lot of sense except all these voices in my head keep telling me otherwise ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 08 2011 at 11:17
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^ clue: those other voices are not geniuses. ------------- What? |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: March 08 2011 at 11:18
| Impostors, kick them out |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 08 2011 at 11:25
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Genius is a garbage term. Some of the things that fall into that category have correlations to specific mental conditions, which I discussed. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: (De)progressive
Date Posted: March 08 2011 at 11:26
I'm not directly saying that all insane people are genius or all genius are insane, But I'm talking about do some mental illness cause unexpected and different side effects in brain which makes people to see things from a different perspective and improve the brain's capacity as well as its performance. This is like losing your sight and being blind but because of this your other senses become much more effective and strong because the brain and so the body have to make up it and concentrate the other ways to close that disadvantage (I don't know if this happens consiously or naturally) by directing the blood and electrical circulation to the other parts. This is my theory. The loss of a faculty causes to gain another one to compansate the lost one. ------------- ''Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment.'' (Friedrich Nietzsche)
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Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: March 08 2011 at 11:35
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I never mentioned insanity, Dean. I used the term personality disorder. And there is a big difference between a personality disorder and insanity. The latter one is defined in the Mental Health Act (in UK laws) as one not being able to be responsible for it's own actions.... and some other definitions. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 08 2011 at 12:49
------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 08 2011 at 12:52
I wasn't responding to your post. I was addressing the falacy in the thread title, which does mention insanity.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: (De)progressive
Date Posted: March 08 2011 at 13:15
I wrote that title to give it a general meaning. ------------- ''Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment.'' (Friedrich Nietzsche)
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 08 2011 at 13:21
------------- What? |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: March 09 2011 at 09:56
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It is a pity that this thread has died. So let's do some cardiac arrest recovery........ From where I am sitting, I have both views towards a mental hospital (next door to me) and a graveyard. I have also done a lot of reading up on the matter. Or research as some may say. This is due to a problem I have got and which I have to deal with for the rest of my life. So, let's cut to the chase... Insanity is what you get put into that mental hospital next door to me for (which btw is having spicy chicken for dinner today while I am having two half decomposed tomato & ham sandwiches). The insane one is reasonable easy to detect. Let me also say that perfectly healthy persons also gets submitted to a mental hospital for a shorter or longer term. Normally for 8-10 days. This due to mental stress where simply neither the body and the soul can take it anymore. The mental hospital then become a life saver for the next days until the human being has rested properly. This has happened to all kinds of people one time in their life. Then we have the insane one who are not able to take care of themselves. All these are reasonable harmless to the society. Then I turn around and is watching the graveyard. That's where victims of the most serious personality disorders ends up. The young mothers, the young girls, the young boys, children and men of all ages. All killed by persons with personality disorders. Psychopaths, these murderers was called before. "Yes, but she annoyed me so I had to kill her. I did nothing wrong. In fact; I am the victim here. Not her". That's what they think and says. Those are very charming in the beginning of a relationship, but soon ends up as monsters. I wonder how many get killed every month by men with personality disorder in the world. It is a truly frightening amount of people. And there is nothing we can do about it. Nothing. And then we have the harmless men/women with a personality disorder. Those too are in the stats. What some use the "insanity" term on, is a wide variety of mental illnesses people get stigmatised for, killed by and if lucky; treated for.
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Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: March 09 2011 at 10:07
To bring a purely subjective view into this, I, for example, have been called insane on numerous occasions.  |
Posted By: (De)progressive
Date Posted: March 09 2011 at 10:15
That's something we can all agree I guess.
 ------------- ''Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment.'' (Friedrich Nietzsche)
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Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: March 09 2011 at 10:43
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Posted By: (De)progressive
Date Posted: March 09 2011 at 11:02
Hahaha no, there are some exceptions.  ------------- ''Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment.'' (Friedrich Nietzsche)
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Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: March 09 2011 at 16:01
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As far as I know, it's not a line. It's a giant singing daffodil. I can vouch for this, I've seen it.
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 09 2011 at 16:09
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a Flower? ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 18:55
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duh duh duh duh... ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 19:04
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Guess there's no way to ever KNOW if it's true but isn't this a loooooong standing idea? That there is little difference between being a genius and being crazy. I think it is absolutely true. You can see it in your own life. Very brilliant people who are....eccentric. The "crazy" or "weird" professor. Various artists, or just regular people. I see it all the time. Let's not forget the stories about Einstein and his difficulty with simple tasks, or how you see smart people that are amazingly forgetful/scatter brained/ inept socially etc Why? Who knows. IMO something along the lines of...their brains are so good it can't really handle it. Or something like that. The line is indeed true though... |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 20:05
None of those things would define that person as crazy - without the genius bit would you describe any of them as insane or suffering from a personality disorder? I think it is simply more noticable in someone who is gifted than in anyone else because of the disparity - for example in all of us there are things we are good at and things we are hopeless at - since the gap between those "talents" is reletively small we don't notice them as readily - so when I can't remember where I put down the pen I was using two minutes earlier it's not a big deal, but when a "genius" does it he's a forgetful scatter brain...
Einstein was dyslexic - dyslexia is a little more than having problems with words and can account for his difficulty with simple tasks (as you put it), other famous dyslexics include Beethoven, Lenoardo da Vinci, Picasso, Richard Branson, Thomas Edison and Hans Christian Anderson. (Before anyone jumps on my back, I know dyslexia is not a mental illness, but it is a neurological disorder) - yet there are thousands upon thousands of dyslexics (it is estimated that between 5 and 10% of the population are) and not all of them are geniuses, and there are many more "genius" musicians, artists, inventors, scientists, entrepreneurs and authors who are not dyslexic.
------------- What? |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 20:35
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No, but still I think it all helps goes to prove my point. You mention dyslexia, it can always be coincidence of course but all those great minds having dyslexia? OK, maybe in only a very few cases is the line between insane and genius that blurred, but as a general....great minds tend to be odd in some way. I think because it just can't handle their power!!!! And you have a good point about us labeling someone "scatter brained" once we think them a genius, but my one friend is no genius, but is a very forgetful scatter brain and I have no problem letting him know it. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 20:35
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I am officially diagnosing my son with OCD. He has incredible intelligence in terms of labeling things and processing information. However, he has no concept of cause and effect. He knows exactly how his train table should be, which includes over 100 pieces, yet he goes berserk if a piece of cargo is turned the wrong way in one of the many freight cars among the ensemble. It's baffling. The boy is intelligent, yet small changes in routine or environment or the placement of cars or trains sets him into an inconsolable frenzy. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 20:48
Knowing someone with OCD is equal parts amusing, frustrating and baffling, though the amusing part soon disipates once you've deliberately messed things up just to watch them fret over it. (just kidding, I only did it once by way of an experiment). So much more pressing problems were manifest during that time I can't remember if we did anything about it or just left her to it - certainly it was the least of our immediate worries at the time and sometimes knowing that all the unused power sockets where switched off, or how many sugar sachets were in the condiment tray in a resturant (and that they were neatly arranged in order) was a good thing. [Not sure what I'm waffling on about, other than attempting to reassure you it's nothing to worry about in itself]... excessive washing was a problem, but only because over-use of Carex handwash was having a negative reaction - replacing carex with a more gentle soap fixed that. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 20:53
Your last point illustrates mine too - a scatter-brain is not necessarily a genius, and a genius is not necessarily a scatter-brain, therefore zero correlation. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 20:54
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Look up Asperger's....and then before we all say "Hey that's me." ADHD is cannot keep attention on anything that's not moving 100 mph. Asperger's includes attention so hyperacute that they seem like geniuses in what they pay attention to...and maybe they are. So the question becomes "Does intelligence = attention?" This from a guy who went to a high school that only accepts the top of 0.1% and I know there are several people on this board quite a bit brighter than me, and equal to the top students at my school. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 20:54
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Well now that you've settled that Dean I guess that makes you some type of genius! |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 20:57
No hand washing (except when he sh*ts) is any problem. For us, it's order in his room or in a select few other aspects of life. His sister is very brilliant for a one-year-old, and will, well f**k things up for him. Whatever she does that is different (in any way) than what he expects, he will go crazy. I work at home, Dean. I need the money to support us. Yet he drives me batsh*t insane.  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 21:00
He can maintain attention on something for hours. I am sure attention isn't a problem- he doesn't get cause and effect and he expects order in his life (even if this order varies from what mom and dad expect). ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 21:08
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So Rob, after dealing with lots of "gifted" people. The line between "Asperger's" and "gifted" is mild. You're a smart guy. I suspect you married a smart girl. We're living in a era of selective breeding for uber-nerds. (Mine are 10 and 8, if I'm projecting on you ignore me.) So frankly, I'm preparing my kids for being out of the norm. While it doesn't take a gifted person to appreciate prog, this is one of a million places on the net that is going to accumulate really smart people. It's a different reality from normal human existence. For example, the guy the played rhythm guitar in the Metallica cover band that I played in in 1991 helped write the orignal program for Netscape that is now Mozilla. He's a millionaire. But he's just another guy like us that likes music and is smart. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 21:08
I don't believe that ADD ADHD, whatever you want to call it, is not real. I think that it is just the people who make pills and other junk's ways of making money. How do I know this? Well it seems that over half of the people in my grade have either ADD or ADHD. This is completly absurd. How can over 100 random people in one school have one similar disease? Sure the pills help them concentrate or whatever, but they help ANYONE concentrate because it is a drug, it can have more or less the same effect for everyone. I believe that what people believe to be ADD/ADHD is simply the person's personality. ------------- https://aprilmaymarch.bandcamp.com/track/the-badger" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 21:09
I was talking to one parent during a family "support" session for parents of kids with eating disorders who complained that her daughter was always vacuuming the carpets. "Surely that's a good thing" I said - "Not at 3 o'clock in the *%$@ing morning it's not!" came the reply. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 21:17
We don't have a GP (around here, it's a Family Physician)- a visit will cost us $150 or so- $140 more than we have at the moment. We took him to five professionals in Florida when we lived there and, sorry to say, they are all dumbasses. "No madam, our son does not suffer from depression and does not need special meds." Eating disorders- funny you should mention that. Our son eats nothing but pasta, dairy, or yeast rolls. He might also eat chicken nuggets. He likes ice cream too. He refuses to eat fruits,vegetables, or anything else. It's not because they are veggies, but because they differ in color- he will eat some bread I bake if it is one color, but not other bread if it looks "funny" to him. We sometimes are successful in forcing a vitamin down his gullet, but it's a painful experience (for all of us). His biggest thing is not being able to communicate well and not understanding cause and effect- I am hoping against hope that he grows out of this. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 21:20
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ADHD is overdiagnosed, but yeah it's real. And yeah, everyone pays better attention on speed. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 21:24
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From what you describe it doesn't sound too serious, although I don't know what you mean by not communicating well. I don't know if my kids are geniuses, but they sure are crazy.
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 21:28
Yeah, this overdiagnosis trend is frustrating for my family because my brother-in-law has serious ADHD as sort of a subset of his general mental disability (which no one has been able to succinctly classify other than being in the general autism spectrum). When he doesn't take his meds, he can literally check out when you need him to pay attention - you can see in his eyes that he is somewhere else in a way that "normal" folks don't really experience.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 11 2011 at 06:22
Thankfully we didn't have to pay for medical treatment or medication - I shudder to think how much that would have cost, just the days off work and travel expenses every week for two years was enough. Often the side effects of the Meds were worse than the condition they were supposed to alleviate, it took (what appeared to be) a lot of trial and error to find something that actually worked (we reached the point of telling the docs no more anti-depressants, they're making her psychotic - that's when they put her on anti-psychotics...)
What you are describing doesn't sound like an eating disorder, but I'm no expert, I only have experience of an anorexic and while we first noticed that as "fussy eating" it was towards foods that "make you fat". Kids have funny eating habits and they often grow out of it - it's of concern when it affects health. (Have you tried putting tinted glasses on him while he eats - if the colour affects him, change the colour - kids eat with their eyes more than their taste-buds - make him veggie ice cream) ------------- What? |
Posted By: (De)progressive
Date Posted: March 11 2011 at 06:43
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Wow, in my absence so much stuff seem to happened here. Well about the mental illnesses many can say the odds are quite few, and when it happens it can be considered as a coincidence which maybe really is, but I'm sure there is a definite relation with neurological problems of well known scientists, musicians, artists which is generally taken granted of their remarkable talents in their own areas, while they haven't much suffered from their illnesses as a real insane human being, just with the lack of their some abilities cause their life to become a bit hard in some perspectives. ------------- ''Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment.'' (Friedrich Nietzsche)
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 11 2011 at 06:58
We probably are breading uber-nerds (the day my daughter realised she was a nerd was an amusing one).
Every parent in our "eating disorder" therapy group was middle-class, of "professional" status of some kind and all were noticeably intelligent if education and career is a measure (one couple were both GPs, two of the fathers were engineers, one father was a bank manager, three of the mother's were teachers, one was high-up in the media broadcasting etc.) - however, at the outset we were given a choice - one-on-one counselling or group sessions - perhaps it was our eduction/career status that allowed us to see the benefit of shared experience and so skewed the make-up of that group - idk - without knowing the make-up of other groups or the education/career status of those who elected to take 1-on-1 sessions it is unwise to draw conclusions - 5 families is a poor sample. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 11 2011 at 07:04
damn.
 Does that mean I'm mildly genius? ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 11 2011 at 07:12
but not all of them. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: March 11 2011 at 07:16
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That reminds me: I have a friend who has been diagnosed with ADHD and dislexia for a few years now, and he is far from genius.
------------- https://aprilmaymarch.bandcamp.com/track/the-badger" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: March 11 2011 at 15:12
Sadly so. If you couldn't tie your shoes or remember your address then you'd be a super genius. |