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octopus-4 
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
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Points: 14573
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 Topic: Meat Loaf to Prog Related
Posted: September 21 2010 at 00:15 |
 Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
In first place I must say I'm probably the biggest Meat Loaf fan here, so my opinion isn't tainted by prejudice and/or dislike, so being absolutely familiar with their music, will give my arguments against the inclusion with absolute confidence of impartiality:
1.- The Meat Loaf & Steinman collaboration must be credited as the pioneers of Wagnerian Rock, but not all Rock directly or indirectly related with Classical music is Prog.
2.- Meat Loaf & Steinman's music is much more elaborate and complex than most mainstream and even many Prog musicians, but in no way complexity is a synonym of Prog.
3.- Meat Loaf music is clearly related with Rock Opera, but again, Rock Opera or theatrics are not exclusive of Prog.
As a fact IMHO Meatloaf is an excellent example of melodic Hard Rock with some Metal connections and an elaborate structure but in no way Prog, even when I would be glad to review the music of the band/artist, his inclusion would imply the addition of other artists as Yngwie Malmsteen and that would be misleading
Iván |
Good synthesys of what I think, too. 
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: September 20 2010 at 21:46 |
That's interesting to hear that you are a Meat Loaf fan. You clearly know your Meat Loaf. It should probably be put in the oven now. 
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: September 20 2010 at 20:20 |
In first place I must say I'm probably the biggest Meat Loaf fan here, so my opinion isn't tainted by prejudice and/or dislike, so being absolutely familiar with their music, will give my arguments against the inclusion with absolute confidence of impartiality:
1.- The Meat Loaf & Steinman collaboration must be credited as the pioneers of Wagnerian Rock, but not all Rock directly or indirectly related with Classical music is Prog.
2.- Meat Loaf & Steinman's music is much more elaborate and complex than most mainstream and even many Prog musicians, but in no way complexity is a synonym of Prog.
3.- Meat Loaf music is clearly related with Rock Opera, but again, Rock Opera or theatrics are not exclusive of Prog.
As a fact (well IMHO) Meatloaf is an excellent example of melodic Hard Rock with some Metal connections and an elaborate structure but in no way Prog, even when I would be glad to review the music of the band/artist, his inclusion would imply the addition of other artists as Yngwie Malmsteen and that would be misleading
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 21 2010 at 01:04
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008
Location: Philadelphia,PA
Status: Offline
Points: 7826
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Posted: September 20 2010 at 18:39 |
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: September 20 2010 at 18:32 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008
Location: Philadelphia,PA
Status: Offline
Points: 7826
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Posted: September 20 2010 at 18:29 |
Yuck! I hate that stuff... I had to eat it the other night for dinner! 
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: September 20 2010 at 18:19 |
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A sheep is not a creature of the air. Beware of flying apples though.
So, on a tangent, if you like meatloaf, what do you like in your meatloaf?
So we've had MeatLoaf, Cooper, and Talking Heads brought up. I personally don't mind the whole "if X is here Y should be" if defended further. Of course, when it comes to these three artists, one I know quite well, the other two primarily by name. I'd been advocating for TH inclusion for a while and am glad to see them here.
In the end, if you are going to open a thread about an addition, make your case when you do or don't open a thread. Not directed at anyone in particular. I see Lynx opened a thread and just buggered off so far.
Edited by Slartibartfast - September 20 2010 at 18:28
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: September 20 2010 at 17:53 |
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Apples and Airplanes - both respect gravity and neither can be used to milk a goat.
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What?
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Online
Points: 37424
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Posted: September 20 2010 at 17:08 |
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Yeah, that's true. As I sometimes have liked to say to people who say you can't compare apples and oranges: ridiculous, they are both fruit and they're both delicious, and that's just a start. At least most people don't compare apples to airplanes here, though one could (they compare varieties of music rather than really different things, but the closer the comparison usually the better for justification purposes). I usually say it's better to compare apples and apples, or at least limes and lemons, than apples and oranges for justification purposes (the case should be sufficiently relevant).
Edited by Logan - September 20 2010 at 17:55
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thellama73
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Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
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Points: 8368
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Posted: September 20 2010 at 16:55 |
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Personally, I think apples and oranges are pretty similar, in the grand scheme of things. That's why I always say "Apples to Airplanes" instead.
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Online
Points: 37424
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Posted: September 20 2010 at 16:50 |
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If I had the will, I would quote posts from the previous four threads proposing Meatloaf categorised into "for" and "against". I was against it based on my youtube listening of Bat Out of Hell. And the big problem with so many of the "The old if X is here why not Y" comments is that they are apples and oranges comparisons (not sufficiently relevant).
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Chris S
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Joined: June 09 2004
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Points: 7028
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Posted: September 20 2010 at 16:22 |
^ The old if X is here why not Y without any justification was pissing me off. If I missed Dad's Army my apologies. I am just amazed that so much desire for an artists inclusion results in zero justification to admin by whoever....is motivated
A bit like wanting to drive from Austin to Denver without stopping for gas.....
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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seventhsojourn
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Joined: December 11 2009
Location: .
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Points: 4006
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Posted: September 20 2010 at 16:17 |
Chris S wrote:
Nah not Tom Tom Club. Silly little one liner comments and still no justification to Admin for Meatloaf. If those interested are not going to make a case and just flame, we have a Just For Fun section too |
I don't know if this comment was in part directed at me but I'll explain my own silly little one liner. A couple of previous posts seemed to be questioning the addition of Talking Heads to PA. My remark is a quote from Dad's Army (an old British sitcom, if you're not aware of it) whereby the Scottish character responds pessimistically to every minor setback. I'm a Talking Heads fan and I was being ironic that the site was somehow doomed because of the addition of Talking Heads. I hope that clears that up.
Are we not allowed a joke around here, or is this thread precious? You yourself encouraged a self-confessed troll to post in the Atheism thread not so long ago. Or is it only certain people that can do that?
I'm really getting fed up with people jumping down others' throats around here.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: September 20 2010 at 16:05 |
I have my Exivious, I have my Comus, I have my Univers Zero, I have my Khan, I have my Ohm, my Devy, and of course Genesis....and....
Meat Loaf.
That's how this thread makes me feel.
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Windhawk
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Joined: December 28 2006
Location: Norway
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Points: 11401
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Posted: September 20 2010 at 15:55 |
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I wouldn't really mind seeing Meat Loaf in here, alongside Jim Steinman's own solo output and some of the other projects he spearheaded.
Not particular strong candidates for related as far as I'm concerned, but they are examples of prog related material even if diluted, and such an addition would most likely give the site more traffic as a side effect.
The strongest points for this case is the time period. The 80's were barren for prog and prog related both, and seen in that context an addition isn't that farfetched. Especially in light of the revised guidelines for the related part of the database.
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Websites I work with:
http://www.progressor.net
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https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Online
Points: 37424
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Posted: September 20 2010 at 15:35 |
Chris S wrote:
Nah not Tom Tom Club. Silly little one liner comments and still no justification to Admin for Meatloaf. If those interested are not going to make a case and just flame, we have a Just For Fun section too |
I'm hardly proposing Tom Tom Club, but it is Talking Heads related. Television might have a case, but we are getting off topic. I say let people have their fun. By the way, let's not forget that one of the admin posted in this thread.
Easy Livin wrote:
tuxon wrote:
My opinion is Yes |
Mine too, but I recognise the strong resistance there has been in the past. |
An admin can propose if they want to, but there is a concern in regards to the opposition, and any flaming is an indication of how people feel. So it's not just a matter of justifying it to admin, since an admin has already expressed that he feels that there is justification by showing support (as I see it) -- of course other admin may disagree --, but also to placate (justify it to) the opposition. If people care enough for and against, then maybe there will be some good debate here.
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: September 20 2010 at 15:11 |
Snow Dog wrote:
The Truth wrote:
Logan wrote:
How did Meat Loaf influence Prog, and what makes him "exceptional"? |
He didn't influence it, but he was influenced by it. |
..or Jim Steinman was. |
I think Jim Steinman should be in prog related. Meat Loaf is just a singer and really has nothing to do with his music. If you listen to his non-Steinman albums they are terrible generic rock.
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
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Posted: September 20 2010 at 15:07 |
Nah not Tom Tom Club. Silly little one liner comments and still no justification to Admin for Meatloaf. If those interested are not going to make a case and just flame, we have a Just For Fun section too
Edited by Chris S - September 20 2010 at 15:07
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Online
Points: 37424
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Posted: September 20 2010 at 14:31 |
octopus-4 wrote:
How Jagger said "It's only rock and roll but I like it". Having 12 minutes songs doesn't always mean progressive. I agree about Talking Heads. If they are on PA who's next? Echo and the bunnymen? |
Tom Tom Club and Television, maybe.
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seventhsojourn
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 11 2009
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 4006
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Posted: September 20 2010 at 10:49 |
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''We're doomed, captain! Doomed!''
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Meat Loaf to Prog Related
