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Earendil View Drop Down
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    Posted: November 13 2010 at 13:26
A relatively high number of people at my high school know stuff like Dream Theater and Pink Floyd, but other than that there's not much progressiveness.  I do have a friend though that loves Transatlantic, Morse, Spock's Beard, Mars Volta, Opeth, and stuff like that. I'd say I'm the only fan of 70's prog at my school though.
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Points: 251 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2010 at 04:07
Teenagers - bring back National Service LOL

On a more serious note, most folks attention spans are fairly short, teenagers generally more so. Adults that I play prog to are exactly the same. As for music without lyrics not being music, whoever said it obviously didn't think before they opened their trap! Nothing unusual there Evil Smile
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Points: 3281 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2010 at 00:08
Thanks for the invite Finn but I don't think I'll be dropping by to that thread. As you might have gathered from tone here I'm a bit of an attack dog when it comes to philosophy/debate and I'm pretty sure I would just upset myself and others. It's nothing specific to this topic, I've chosen not to participate in the general discussion folder of this forum at all.
Back to the topic: Basically life is about not throwing the baby out with the bathwater and this old/young thing is one very clear illustration of that.
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Points: 16913 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 11 2010 at 07:42
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

Finnforest: I find your words completely agreeable and palatable, free as they are of the superior, self-centred, "transference-of-own-shortcomings-in-dealing-with-change-into-blame-on-the-next-generation-not-listening-to-you-because-they-are-all-stupid-and-inferior" rubbish I was detecting in some of the other posters. I am only 29 but I am determined never to become one of those frozen-in-time older people whose potential to hand down wisdom is completely neutralised by their insistance that only time travel to the past can fix the problems of today.
 
I don't think the old are irrelevant at all, but I find WAY too many older people sitting about on the internet going "BLAH BLAH BLAH, EVERYTHING IS RUBBISH EXCEPT ME". Young people seem to be far less likely to burst into rants about how awful everything old is. That is because they are not experiencing the pain of seeing their values and culture "corrected" by the next generation. The old feel insulted to see their children go "Nope, you got it wrong, let's do it this way" but it's also hugely insulting to young people, and also just plain childish, to go "HAHA YOU HAVE RUINED THE WORLD AND I LIVED IN THE BEST TIME POSSIBLE WHICH I'M TAKING SOME SORT OF MORAL CREDIT FOR DESPITE IT BEING COMPLETELY COINCIDENTAL". At heart it is mastubatory and self-aggrandising and completely unhelpful in guiding the young.
 
So my snarky tone is a backlash against that sort of stuff, which is well and alive at PA, rather than a well-balanced depiction of how I feel about the whole issue.
 
 

Textbook:  First off, I commend you for being a teacher, I think that is great!  I understand and agree that sometimes the older folks tend to come off as condescending when we talk to youth about this generation’s problems.  I’m sure I’ve done it at times.  I certainly do pine for elements of the past but speaking for myself, I do not do so to spite young people, or to stick it in their face how much their lives suck. 

 

When I look at the young folks in my life whom I love, it is about genuine concern.  I honestly feel bad that they are missing out on a certain security that was present in my childhood neighborhood, school, and friends.  Certainly the 70s had problems for the adults of the time, but they were not visited on the kids to any degree approaching what we have today.  I could go on about these differences but that’s another thread.  So I just feel a bit bad for kids whom seemed to be getting short-shifted on a certain experience that was very positive, at least it was for me.  But it’s not meant in some malicious way, I assure you.  If anything it is about me blaming *my* generation for things we have done or failed to do.  In some ways I feel we, and the culture in general, have stolen or messed with what should be a very special time in life.  It’s not about time travel or turning the world back into The Brady Bunch or the WW2 generation, just about recognizing what values from every generation have worth, and trying not to lose them.   This generation will have the same challenge when their kids begin to view them as old!   ;)

 

So the goal as I see it is for the old to relay wisdom to the young and to help make them feel more secure, less burdened by the bad news in the media, more loved, and more respected, all in a culture that can be quite fragmented and cold.  And in return the young can share with us their amazing skills at adapting, resilience, enthusiasm, and hope.  We really have to face the future together.  I think we can all agree that we are stronger if we use each other’s strengths as opposed to viewing them with suspicion or skepticism.  Smile

Best of luck with your teaching mission!! 
 
Edit:
 


Edited by Finnforest - June 11 2010 at 09:34
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Finnforest: I find your words completely agreeable and palatable, free as they are of the superior, self-centred, "transference-of-own-shortcomings-in-dealing-with-change-into-blame-on-the-next-generation-not-listening-to-you-because-they-are-all-stupid-and-inferior" rubbish I was detecting in some of the other posters. I am only 29 but I am determined never to become one of those frozen-in-time older people whose potential to hand down wisdom is completely neutralised by their insistance that only time travel to the past can fix the problems of today.
 
I don't think the old are irrelevant at all, but I find WAY too many older people sitting about on the internet going "BLAH BLAH BLAH, EVERYTHING IS RUBBISH EXCEPT ME". Young people seem to be far less likely to burst into rants about how awful everything old is. That is because they are not experiencing the pain of seeing their values and culture "corrected" by the next generation. The old feel insulted to see their children go "Nope, you got it wrong, let's do it this way" but it's also hugely insulting to young people, and also just plain childish, to go "HAHA YOU HAVE RUINED THE WORLD AND I LIVED IN THE BEST TIME POSSIBLE WHICH I'M TAKING SOME SORT OF MORAL CREDIT FOR DESPITE IT BEING COMPLETELY COINCIDENTAL". At heart it is mastubatory and self-aggrandising and completely unhelpful in guiding the young.
 
So my snarky tone is a backlash against that sort of stuff, which is well and alive at PA, rather than a well-balanced depiction of how I feel about the whole issue.
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2010 at 23:16
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

  It's a war you cannot win because the clock is not going to be turned back. If you're older, you've lost.
"All this were fields when I were a lad" couldn't be less relevant. You're preparing them for the world as it is today and if you can't engage in that world today, your usefulness to them will be limited.



While I'm in middle age and understand how the older guys feel, and while I often rant about "today" myself, Textbook's post was both insightful and helpful to me.  I feel torn between two worlds myself at times. 

As sharp as your insight is (and as sharp as many of the other young guys I consider it my privilege to know here), there is some glaring overstatement there.   The life experience you will amass over the next half dozen decades will teach you that there is a wisdom codgers possess that the adrenalin culture cannot give you.  (And perhaps you're not that "young" Textbook, but I'm speaking generally about the young here). 

When "all this were fields" come decades and times that give one perspective, and this is hardly irrelevant in being a whole human being.  You will lose your loved ones.  You will have to help a friend through a painful divorce or the loss of his child.  You may get a life threatening disease.  You will fall in love, she will break your heart, and you will fall in love again.  You will have any number of catastrophes, and great joys hit you and knock the youthful chip from your shoulder.  The oldsters here that you sometimes rightfully mock have been through these things, and these are not worthless commodities, but life wisdom to be shared.  Laugh at us sometimes, tell us when we're overreacting, but don't write us off as worthless.  Don't think we can't offer you anything you can't get from the internet.  Embrace the old as you would have us take you seriously.  Look beyond your parents to your grandparents for their perspective too.  I realize you mentioned ACR should give some perspective, but I think your overall comment minimize the strengths of experience.  It is just as short-sighted to assume the worlds future citizens need only know how to be tech savvy and credentialed in modern culture as it is to think the other way. 

Young and old need each other.  Thanks for reminding me of that, and I hope you take the reply in the good spirit it was intended. 
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2010 at 23:13
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

Toddler: It's all about fear of death. People used to believe in an afterlife. As that falls apart, they look for media immortality.
I think that's likely pretty accurate. Clap
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2010 at 22:54
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by <FONT color=#ff0000>Peter</FONT> Peter wrote:


Most people on this forum will be basically unwilling unable to read a post this long. They cannot focus that long -- it takes effort, and facility with language (thinking & communication skills).
Hey Peter, could you try being a little more patronizing? I've heard that insulting the intelligence of your readers is a good way to get people to listen to you, but I think that you haven't gone quite far enough to drive the point home. Perhaps you could accuse us of being so absorbed in our digital world we don't know that there's a massive oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico? Or perhaps tell us we don't have the focus to listen to a whole album in one sitting? The possibilities are endless.
 
Well, no one seems to read my reviews anymore....Cry

There's been a lot of people talking lately about the decline of attention spans, but and I don't dispute them to some extent, but I think they're missing the point: posting on this forum is not as good for your reading abilities as wading through Heidegger, although I would argue it's beneficial in other ways, but before the internet, most people were not reading Heidegger, they were watching Diff'rent Strokes! And I'm 100% certain that spending half an hour in a discussion about anything is better than watching Diff'rent Strokes. Through Facebook and forums, the internet has returned the written word to a central part of our cultural discourse after radio and TV. It's as if people don't want to remember that Amusing Ourselves to Death was written in 1985, and let us not forget O Tempore O Mores....

And I like starting sentences with conjunctions and linking run on sentences with commas and sometimes using sentence fragments. It's much more natural and conversational than trying to make a post read like a high school English essay. Although I do admit that it's/its/there/their/they're/you're/your can drive me batty sometimes. ;-)
 
Thumbs Up You're clearly an exception, dear Henry -- as are all PA members, obviously! Yay! (I generalize, generally. Please don't take it personally, and have FUN!  Go team Humvee! ) Wink
 
Still, most humans are sheep-like lazy dolts (or most often BEHAVE that way -- see Earth), and I believe that written communication (if not oral, as well) is devolving. Nor am I alone in that belief -- far from it..
[QUOTE=Peter]
Some want to be dancers or pop stars. An easy route to  riches and fame, with no work involved.....
People don't like to work? How shocking! And do you really think that becoming a famous dancer or pop star or actor is so easy it requires no work? Because any famous person you can find is going to disagree with you there...
 
^ Sarcasm alert (admittedly, often hard to spot in text). TRY THIS VERSION: 
Some want to be dancers or pop stars. An "easy" route to  riches and fame, with "no" work involved.....WinkWinkWinkWinkWink <<<
 


Edited by Peter - June 10 2010 at 23:27
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Points: 16913 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2010 at 22:03
Walter, you're way behind the curve, man.  KOS used that one on me weeks/months agoLOL.

Fair enough, I was just trying to find some common ground here.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2010 at 22:02
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:


In the past decade, I have spent 100s of hours interviewing very old people for history research.  Many of these subjects, in their 70s-90s, have already passed away. 

You interview dead people? Tongue
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 16913 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2010 at 21:54
One more thought if you can stand itLOL

In the past decade, I have spent 100s of hours interviewing very old people for history research.  Many of these subjects, in their 70s-90s, have already passed away.  Far from being irrelevant, hearing their stories had me on the edge of my seat.  Hearing their words and seeing their faces was an experience that will stay with me for the rest of their ride.  "All this were fields" can be fascinating indeed. 

Folks on both sides of the generations gap would be wise to not be so cocky, and to listen.  I'm as guilty as anyone of being dismissive sometimes, but I'll keep trying to be objective until the day comes when I am truly Homer's Dad.  Then I'll just bitch about the food.Wink
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Points: 16913 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2010 at 21:29
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

  It's a war you cannot win because the clock is not going to be turned back. If you're older, you've lost.
"All this were fields when I were a lad" couldn't be less relevant. You're preparing them for the world as it is today and if you can't engage in that world today, your usefulness to them will be limited.



While I'm in middle age and understand how the older guys feel, and while I often rant about "today" myself, Textbook's post was both insightful and helpful to me.  I feel torn between two worlds myself at times. 

As sharp as your insight is (and as sharp as many of the other young guys I consider it my privilege to know here), there is some glaring overstatement there.   The life experience you will amass over the next half dozen decades will teach you that there is a wisdom codgers possess that the adrenalin culture cannot give you.  (And perhaps you're not that "young" Textbook, but I'm speaking generally about the young here). 

When "all this were fields" come decades and times that give one perspective, and this is hardly irrelevant in being a whole human being.  You will lose your loved ones.  You will have to help a friend through a painful divorce or the loss of his child.  You may get a life threatening disease.  You will fall in love, she will break your heart, and you will fall in love again.  You will have any number of catastrophes, and great joys hit you and knock the youthful chip from your shoulder.  The oldsters here that you sometimes rightfully mock have been through these things, and these are not worthless commodities, but life wisdom to be shared.  Laugh at us sometimes, tell us when we're overreacting, but don't write us off as worthless.  Don't think we can't offer you anything you can't get from the internet.  Embrace the old as you would have us take you seriously.  Look beyond your parents to your grandparents for their perspective too.  I realize you mentioned ACR should give some perspective, but I think your overall comment minimize the strengths of experience.  It is just as short-sighted to assume the worlds future citizens need only know how to be tech savvy and credentialed in modern culture as it is to think the other way. 

Young and old need each other.  Thanks for reminding me of that, and I hope you take the reply in the good spirit it was intended. 
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Points: 3126 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2010 at 08:04
Originally posted by Vompatti Vompatti wrote:

I sometimes ask people on the street if they like King Crimson, and if they don't I punch them in the face.
I see humour in this due to how in the 70's, kids in high school that listened to Grand Funk Railroad for example....would want to beat us progressive underground freaks up! 50 percent of them owned Zappa and ELP albums, the other 50 percent of them hated progressive rock. There is a strange twist and pattern to this war between music and crowds for decades. Picture yourself walking into a night club with guitar case in hand every night as extreme rockers in huge amounts are shouting foul remarks and threats to the disco crowd on the other side of the strip. The disco crowd is shouting back and wanting to get physical. The cops arrive after a few heads get busted and then it starts all over again on the following night. Very strange and extreme in the 70's. I remember bully male rockers punching out a disco queen for the mere fact that she did not belong in a rock venue to begin with. These people were crazy for each others throats and it went on 6 nights a week almost every venue I played in the 70's. But then again, when you have disco clubs on one side of a strip and rock or progressive rock clubs on the other, you are asking for trouble. Now the club owners had to deal with the police 7 days a week which now the police know you first hand and that you own a rock club. Musicians were busted for drugs upon entry to clubs often. Drugs came free from club owners, managers, and agents.

Anything you wanted, you could obtain for free because you were in a band working for a respected booking agency or corporation. At any rate many of the owners sold out as they couldn't stand the headaches. Yeah....differences in music expressed through violent measures was a real scene in the 70's.   
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Points: 3126 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2010 at 07:08
I sincerely hope what I have said is not hurting or insulting to anyone. I may consider my dribble based on facts that derive from years of experience however, it is not an exact science. There are beautiful people in this world that are in their youth and do not allow any outside influences to rule their decision making. There were so many aspects to my generation that I hated in my youth. One in particular was "Love In's" and communes in the hippie culture. Another was "Stadium Rock" in the mid to late 70's. So, in that sense you can make a clearer judgement on past events in comparision to today's. Many people from my generation feel that today's world is completely contrived and lacking in the expression of the arts but, when I was age 17 in 1974, there was so much garbage around me that I could not stand it! In that sense the generation I grew with is no different than today's. As a teacher of music theory and guitar instruction I must volunteer that. Even if I dislike today's social environment, I can honestly say that all the kids I teach, whether they are close minded or open minded make my life worthwhile. It's worth the distance because it's about them and their growth which is a rewarding experience.
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Points: 3281 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2010 at 05:46
Yes, yes, very good, safe in the knowledge that you will die before the worst occurs, you stand about telling future generations that they are absolutely screwed and no one is doing anything about it, save for a few valiant souls who vent their spleens on internet message forums.
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Points: 14258 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2010 at 02:05
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by AtomicCrimsonRush AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:

Well this is becoming a flame thread for teens to vent their frustrations.
 
 
I think from what i read here now that the impression is that teenagers are unable to hold interest for long, have short attention spans and want everything instantly in this whizz bang age of instant coffee, instant TV and instant relationships online. Instant messaging and instant success.
 
We want everything and we want it now. The faster the better, the more instant the better. Everything is coming at us at a million frames a second and we take it in like sponges. None of us are exempt unless we lock ourselves away in a cave and switch off the world. 

Technology is the villain of the age and we are spoilt for choice. It is designed to make life easier, but our lives have become complex mazes of techno info overload. We don't even need to leave our chair to change a channel, send a PM online or email someone from Italy, and i can watch people cross the road at Abbey Road online, and then switch to Egypt and see the pyramids and then find out what is happening in Czechoslovakia and then switch back to Australia and see what is the latest news all in the space of 20 minutes.

Some people can't live without a cell phone yet when I was a teen such things were science fiction. Gasp, we even needed to dial our phones and visit a phone booth to make outside calls. Today we even drive our cars with a phone pressed to our ear or can't let a call go while we are talking to our friend. What a rude gesture yet we do it without a moments thought.

 
It is a faceless society, teens can't communicate face-to-face when all they need to do is text message someone across the road from them rather than cross it to meet them. And here is the crux of the problem, the generation of today is lazy and they don't even realise it, they are a spoon fed generation and everything has to be instantaneous or they are not interested and get bored easily.
 
My students in the classroom have a favourite phrase "Do we have to do this?" My reply, is "Yes, and you will complete the task or be back here at recess and use your own time to complete it." That usually works. But they act surprised at this alternative. But it surprises me that everytime a student is asigned a task they want to get it out of the way straight away and get on with some net surfing activity. if I set a task to surf the net for assignments then there is no problem, they will do it as it fascinates them.  I hear in the class "This is stupid, i am bored." Writing tasks, putting pen to paper is almost a torture. And of course they are bored in this techno age where images are being flashed at them all day on TV and the net.
 
However the exceptions to the rule are out there. I have heard from them on this very thread! Some students in my class are incredily intelligent and work hard and are always the achievers, always getting A grades and consistently handing in high quality work, their work shines in comparison to all the dull work with no effort put in, and so i have to award them accordingly. it is not that they are the bright sparks so much, it is just that they provide evidence that they care and put in a consistent effort and this is awarded everytime. It is all about attitude. If the attitude is right they excel and teachers find it a joy to teach them. Their report card always talks about attitude and effort.
 
Back to Prog. Prog music takes a lot of patience and it is complex and not spoon fed music but takes a degree of intelligence to comprehend and i am glad to say there are many teens here who do just that and it is gratifying to learn this.
 
I agree with the above and would also like to say that "quick results" and or instant gratification Is basically the expectations that my students have of me, the teacher and what they choose to learn....an instrument and music. I have groups of kids who are a bit intellectual and wealthy who make attempts to challenge me with B+ pieces or guitar solo's. They want to test me to prove a point. It's like they are a bit too late for that. I toured a circuit of mansions and played classical guitar by candlelight in 78'. I played jazz/fusion and progressive rock for decades. I paid my dues...so why challenge me like a snot nose, when you could be learning from me? I don't flaunt or show off. I post replies to younger people on P.A. hoping that I can be of some help to their dilemma. I really don't understand what's going on in the minds of my ambitious students but, I wish them good luck for sure. The music business that I lived is now dead. There are new concepts however, they seem to be threaded with an undertaste that makes me want to vomit. It's still the big guys on top who run the business. My Space and You Tube make folks happy and content. But what is this "Everybody wants to be a Star crap"?Shocked

I don't understand the abundance of a teenager's instant gratification when the reason behind it relates to being a star or a big shot. Right there is a concept that's being applied to an unworthy cause. Jimi Hendrix or Janis Joplin desired for record contracts, expressing themselves to an audience and to a degree...stardom. But it wasn't for the same intent and purpose we see in the limelight today. If anything they were more sincere about it. Of course back then you didn't see a nobody eating bugs on a reality TV showLOL. Music in the mainstream is more about money today then it was in the 70's. Not many want to practice and not very many see the point in it. That is how technology has effected many kids. They don't want to go the distance because the importance of desire is not felt due to the quick results mentality amongst us all. Computers are just an invention or a tool for getting quicker results then what we did in the 70's. That is a positive thing but, people have developed attitudes over this invention. The invention itself has taken away the spirit which is what music is all abouit to a large degree. Built on concepts that derive from business media fakers.

Ironically it is good for musicians like me who were reported to the Art Police back in the 70's for ripping into an original progressive rock piece in a N.Y. recording studio. Now I can if I want, just record music and set up a website or gain the interest of vendors who sell progressive rock. But getting a review from a critic in Progression magazine is from being in the thicket,. I teach special ed and these kids are on a mission based off what they see on T.V.....They are very abused. They are badly beaten. I try to please them and work really hard at giving them shortcuts so they will get a quick result. Many times they breakdown at the guitar lesson and cry. I listen to their problems and feel like it is my duty to give a helping hand. I try to steer them clear of the high school shooting concepts and help them to focus more on developing power through experience and growth.

They want to release their negative energy through some tragic event which was aired on TV and internet. Zappa always talked against living your life in this way. Nobody can live your life for you so, why take some example through a TV broadcast? Why is the media so influential to teenagers? There are many teenagers who are doormats at their local high school simply because they choose a different path. One that does not consist of violence. Business jerks perpetuate violence through internet sources and serial killers are rock stars. Why can't there be a law against this? instead, there is more emphasis to the importance of a race of people offended over a  derogatory term. Why? When our society is being destroyed with media concepts on sex and violence. People should be more concerned with what teenagers are viewing behind closed doors due to how business is conducted in this country. It's the business idiots who are destroying the minds and mentalities of our youth.    

  
ClapClapClapClapClap
 
 
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2010 at 23:10
I agree with both Peter and Scott.  However, you also have to embrace modern technology as well.  There is happy medium between the two.

Edited by James - June 09 2010 at 23:10
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Toddler: It's all about fear of death. People used to believe in an afterlife. As that falls apart, they look for media immortality.
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Location: Vineland, N.J.
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Points: 3126 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2010 at 19:14
Originally posted by AtomicCrimsonRush AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:

Well this is becoming a flame thread for teens to vent their frustrations.
 
 
I think from what i read here now that the impression is that teenagers are unable to hold interest for long, have short attention spans and want everything instantly in this whizz bang age of instant coffee, instant TV and instant relationships online. Instant messaging and instant success.
 
We want everything and we want it now. The faster the better, the more instant the better. Everything is coming at us at a million frames a second and we take it in like sponges. None of us are exempt unless we lock ourselves away in a cave and switch off the world. 

Technology is the villain of the age and we are spoilt for choice. It is designed to make life easier, but our lives have become complex mazes of techno info overload. We don't even need to leave our chair to change a channel, send a PM online or email someone from Italy, and i can watch people cross the road at Abbey Road online, and then switch to Egypt and see the pyramids and then find out what is happening in Czechoslovakia and then switch back to Australia and see what is the latest news all in the space of 20 minutes.

Some people can't live without a cell phone yet when I was a teen such things were science fiction. Gasp, we even needed to dial our phones and visit a phone booth to make outside calls. Today we even drive our cars with a phone pressed to our ear or can't let a call go while we are talking to our friend. What a rude gesture yet we do it without a moments thought.

 
It is a faceless society, teens can't communicate face-to-face when all they need to do is text message someone across the road from them rather than cross it to meet them. And here is the crux of the problem, the generation of today is lazy and they don't even realise it, they are a spoon fed generation and everything has to be instantaneous or they are not interested and get bored easily.
 
My students in the classroom have a favourite phrase "Do we have to do this?" My reply, is "Yes, and you will complete the task or be back here at recess and use your own time to complete it." That usually works. But they act surprised at this alternative. But it surprises me that everytime a student is asigned a task they want to get it out of the way straight away and get on with some net surfing activity. if I set a task to surf the net for assignments then there is no problem, they will do it as it fascinates them.  I hear in the class "This is stupid, i am bored." Writing tasks, putting pen to paper is almost a torture. And of course they are bored in this techno age where images are being flashed at them all day on TV and the net.
 
However the exceptions to the rule are out there. I have heard from them on this very thread! Some students in my class are incredily intelligent and work hard and are always the achievers, always getting A grades and consistently handing in high quality work, their work shines in comparison to all the dull work with no effort put in, and so i have to award them accordingly. it is not that they are the bright sparks so much, it is just that they provide evidence that they care and put in a consistent effort and this is awarded everytime. It is all about attitude. If the attitude is right they excel and teachers find it a joy to teach them. Their report card always talks about attitude and effort.
 
Back to Prog. Prog music takes a lot of patience and it is complex and not spoon fed music but takes a degree of intelligence to comprehend and i am glad to say there are many teens here who do just that and it is gratifying to learn this.
 
I agree with the above and would also like to say that "quick results" and or instant gratification Is basically the expectations that my students have of me, the teacher and what they choose to learn....an instrument and music. I have groups of kids who are a bit intellectual and wealthy who make attempts to challenge me with B+ pieces or guitar solo's. They want to test me to prove a point. It's like they are a bit too late for that. I toured a circuit of mansions and played classical guitar by candlelight in 78'. I played jazz/fusion and progressive rock for decades. I paid my dues...so why challenge me like a snot nose, when you could be learning from me? I don't flaunt or show off. I post replies to younger people on P.A. hoping that I can be of some help to their dilemma. I really don't understand what's going on in the minds of my ambitious students but, I wish them good luck for sure. The music business that I lived is now dead. There are new concepts however, they seem to be threaded with an undertaste that makes me want to vomit. It's still the big guys on top who run the business. My Space and You Tube make folks happy and content. But what is this "Everybody wants to be a Star crap"?Shocked

I don't understand the abundance of a teenager's instant gratification when the reason behind it relates to being a star or a big shot. Right there is a concept that's being applied to an unworthy cause. Jimi Hendrix or Janis Joplin desired for record contracts, expressing themselves to an audience and to a degree...stardom. But it wasn't for the same intent and purpose we see in the limelight today. If anything they were more sincere about it. Of course back then you didn't see a nobody eating bugs on a reality TV showLOL. Music in the mainstream is more about money today then it was in the 70's. Not many want to practice and not very many see the point in it. That is how technology has effected many kids. They don't want to go the distance because the importance of desire is not felt due to the quick results mentality amongst us all. Computers are just an invention or a tool for getting quicker results then what we did in the 70's. That is a positive thing but, people have developed attitudes over this invention. The invention itself has taken away the spirit which is what music is all abouit to a large degree. Built on concepts that derive from business media fakers.

Ironically it is good for musicians like me who were reported to the Art Police back in the 70's for ripping into an original progressive rock piece in a N.Y. recording studio. Now I can if I want, just record music and set up a website or gain the interest of vendors who sell progressive rock. But getting a review from a critic in Progression magazine is from being in the thicket,. I teach special ed and these kids are on a mission based off what they see on T.V.....They are very abused. They are badly beaten. I try to please them and work really hard at giving them shortcuts so they will get a quick result. Many times they breakdown at the guitar lesson and cry. I listen to their problems and feel like it is my duty to give a helping hand. I try to steer them clear of the high school shooting concepts and help them to focus more on developing power through experience and growth.

They want to release their negative energy through some tragic event which was aired on TV and internet. Zappa always talked against living your life in this way. Nobody can live your life for you so, why take some example through a TV broadcast? Why is the media so influential to teenagers? There are many teenagers who are doormats at their local high school simply because they choose a different path. One that does not consist of violence. Business jerks perpetuate violence through internet sources and serial killers are rock stars. Why can't there be a law against this? instead, there is more emphasis to the importance of a race of people offended over a  derogatory term. Why? When our society is being destroyed with media concepts on sex and violence. People should be more concerned with what teenagers are viewing behind closed doors due to how business is conducted in this country. It's the business idiots who are destroying the minds and mentalities of our youth.    

  
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