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EnglishAssassin 
Forum Groupie
Joined: December 24 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 83
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 Topic: Rate yourself! (Prog elitism)
Posted: January 23 2008 at 21:25 |
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1: I'm a rock snob, but not a prog snob.
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A B Negative
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 02 2006
Location: Methil Republic
Status: Offline
Points: 1594
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Posted: January 23 2008 at 11:15 |
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1 for prog elitism, 10 for music elitism. Good music is good music, regardless of genre.
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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."
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Okocha
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 13 2007
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 681
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Posted: January 23 2008 at 09:41 |
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10 of course!!!
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progrules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 14 2007
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 958
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Posted: January 23 2008 at 07:40 |
I was really intrigued by the discussion between Ivan_Melgar and Reality at the end of last year. They both had a point but in fact I agree with a lot Ivan says. This is our love and let the rappers and dancefreaks have fun on their sites.
There's no reason to be ashamed to be a progger because eventhough most prog is hardly known with the general public and therefore not on top of the chain I believe it's their loss and they are missing out. Most of the general public is a bit shallow with music and they don't want to make an extra effort for it. Because after all prog doesn't come easy to you. It's a lot more "easy" to just listen to the charts and go with the flow. But if I listen to the charts occasionally I pity the people who love it. 90% is rubbish to me and I can't bear to listen to it.
Probably I'm missing out on real life then, well so be it. Maybe it's presumptuous but it's how I feel it and if it's immature: again, I can't help it.
So, yes I'm almost a hundred percent progger and I'm fine with it. Still I wouldn't give myself a 9 or 10 in this poll because I'm too limited in my favourite subdivisions of prog. I don't even like half of the subdivisions and there are even a few I almost hate. So I can't call myself a true progger over the whole spectrum and because of that I would say 8.
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A day without prog is a wasted day
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Visitor13
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 02 2005
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 4702
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Posted: January 09 2008 at 09:15 |
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17.
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Okocha
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 13 2007
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 681
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Posted: January 09 2008 at 08:54 |
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10 of course!!!
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Zargus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 08 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 3491
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Posted: January 08 2008 at 10:13 |
Well thats a hard question i whuld gues only around 30-40% of my music collection culd be described as prog and much of it on the edge, the rest is all types of diffrent music. But yes i do consider prog to be one of the best types of music i like otherwise i whuldetn be here whuld i ? a 6-7 maybe. Since im still pretty new to prog and so far mostly got the big bands. But one day i hope to be a 100% prog nutt like the rest of you.. 
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: January 08 2008 at 00:33 |
 jimmy_row wrote:
Ivan: Being that you're a huge Genesis fan, as I am, I'm sure you know that they didn't exactly take those singles seriously...many were empty motions or contractual fulfillments, while the earliest ones were aimed at raising awareness for the band, especially in Italy betwenn 71/72 were they became very popular. The band weren't particularly focussed on singles (in fact, they didn't like their songs being cut up and edited), but with management, there's always a contractual obligation or some kind of outside pressure...all the same, most of these singles were released after the records and are just a footnote, meant to promote the album at the time.
You are right, but it was said that Prog bands didn't released singles, I could ,mention most of the famous bands releasing singles.
I could be wrong, but to me, there's no denying the initial leap in sales that albums from Yes et al took...whether or not they sold consistently through the years, they made a big splash in the charts, and that is definately saying something about their popularity/mainstream appeal
But again, when you go to the cold numbers, the difference with real mainstream is incredible.
*(Ivan, I'm curious about the geographical appeal of prog in the '70s, because you mention that it was next to unheard of in Peru, while Dean describes a proggers paradise in the UK...makes me think that prog was predominantly an Englsih-speaking movement, while the heavily promoted pop-albums you mentioned *eg Thriller* were marketed around the world to enormous audiences...and probably even bands like The Rolling Stones to a lesser extent.)
In Perú uin the 70's most albums were in English, mostly Rock. Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Uriah Heep, Kansas, Queen, Slade, etc sold well.
But Prog was hardly sold, and that's not only in Perú, as I said I lived in USA and the situation was not that different.
Cheers
Iván
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: January 08 2008 at 00:20 |
darqdean wrote:
[
That's was not >50 different Genesis singles - only a completist counts every edition of each single.
The famous Charisma label had found a small amount of chart success selling left-field singles (Lindisfarne and Clfford T Ward) but in the words of Tony Stratton-Smith: "Charisma, in fact, has had only one Artist and Repertoire man until this year and that was Stratton Smith himself. He signs the bands directly and takes a hearty artistic hand in determining what goes out of the office with a Charisma label on it. Singles, he says, were never Charisma's strong point simply because he saw no need for them. Charisma was selling albums in copious quantities and those albums were by groups that English and American radio chieftains saw only as album acts." ( http://www.charismalabel.com/tpcmarticle.htm)
Use the argument you want, Genesis released more than 100 singles along their whole career.
And you forgotten Yes, they released at least one single per album in ther peak.
Jethro Tull has a lot of Singles, Focus has singles, Manfred Mann's Earth Band have singles...The fact is that they also tried to reach the mainstream market unsuccesfullt
Jimmy_row's original statement was regarding the time when Prog was at it's peak, which was from 1970 through to 1976, he made no reference to any country. I referenced the UK since that was the epicentre of the growth (and decline) of Prog Rock in the 70s...
We know that UK market worjked in a different way with Prog, not enough to be a opopular genre or part of the mainstream, but it was essentially a British movement.
I was not being Anglo-centric in the facts I stated - I was just reflecting what I witnessed first hand in the UK in the 1970s - you made similar statements about your personal experiences of Prog from your youth. I cannot comment on what prog was like in the USA during th 70s because I was not there and had little interest in American music at that time.
I can't comment both I lived a year in Birmingham Alabbama, and the situation was similar to Perú, I hardly knew 10 persons who ever heard about Prog, the difference is that you always found a copy of a Yes, Genesis, King Crimson, Jethro Tull album, but never moire that 2 or 3
The World-wide status of Silver and Gold album is not related to the number of units sold, but to the percentage of the county's population that bought them. So the USA a Gold album has to sell 5 times more than the UK because the population is 5 times larger. Therefore achieving Gold in any country in the World is a comparable measure of popularity, not wealth.
US Gold = 500,000 from a population of 250,000,000 = 0.2% of population
UK Gold = 100,000 from a population of 50,000,000 = 0.2% of population
That's why I'm using BPI certification for UK albums and not RIAA.
but despite this fact, I can say without doubts that 100,000 albums in 14 years is NOTHING in UK, any POP or mainstream band sells more in the first six months.
So, yes you can make more money by going Gold in the USA, which is why every artist on the planet wants to be big in the USA - but you can make exactly the same amount of money by going Gold in 6 or 7 European countries. To use a modern statistic - Dream Theatre have sold 6 million albums, but only 2 million of those were in the USA - i.e they sell twice as many albums outside their own country.
Please, don't change the subject, I'm comparing albums sold in UK all with the same parameters, 100,000 albums in one year is considered a poor sale for any mainstream band.
Dream theater BTW is an exception because they got the Prog and the Metal audience.
(btw: Two weeks at No. 1 over the Christmas period means quite a lot as this is the time of high album sales and is equivalent in sales terms to several weeks at No.1 at any other time of the year)
But still they only got a gold certification during their first year, this means 100,000 albums in one year, normally a POP band with this sales would be put to sleep.
Pre-teen fads like the Spice Girls and Britney Spears are exceptions and do not really relate to Mainstream success either - the vast majority of Mainstream artists sell considerably less than that.
Do you wat more examples? I won't mention again the 11 Platinum albums of Thriller and the 3 platinum of Britney, I would go exclusively with no pre teen bands
Rolling Stones in UK:
Tally [U.K. LPs]: 4,220,000 certified units
SILVER: 23
GOLD: 21 (tied at #1 with the Beatles among all music groups)
PLATINUM: 4
And they are not Pre Teen Pop
Fleetwood Mac Rumours:
In the year of release they got BPI Platinum Certification, but that's nt all.
That's not a Pre teen group neither
Cat Stevens is not mentioned by BPI but this numbers may guive you an idea:
Madonna: Like a Prayer:
| United Kingdom |
1 |
4x Platinum |
1,200,000+ |
Hotel California:
5 Platinum Certification by BPI
The Joshua's Tree (U2)
| United Kingdom |
1 |
6x Platinum |
1,800,000+ |
REM - Out of Time:
In one year got triple Platinum in UK
So please, the numbers speak by themselves, mainsteream sales are incredibly superiotr to Prog sales , so we can't compare them.
The general trend is exponential with all the artists around the middle to lower regions of the charts selling similar volumes, which is why Unsigned bands can find their downloads in the top-40 and Marillion can release 23 singles over the past 24 years, all of which chart.
Niumbers don't lie, I made a list of serious bands. not pre teens, no Rap, etc, only recognized mainstream artists and the difference with Prog is amazing, even in England.
Iván |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: January 07 2008 at 20:09 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
BTW: If Prog artists considered singles not serious......We are before a monumental contradiction, The list of Genesis singles is incredibly extense:
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That's was not >50 different Genesis singles - only a completist counts every edition of each single.
The famous Charisma label had found a small amount of chart success selling left-field singles (Lindisfarne and Clfford T Ward) but in the words of Tony Stratton-Smith: "Charisma, in fact, has had only one Artist and Repertoire man until this year and that was Stratton Smith himself. He signs the bands directly and takes a hearty artistic hand in determining what goes out of the office with a Charisma label on it. Singles, he says, were never Charisma's strong point simply because he saw no need for them. Charisma was selling albums in copious quantities and those albums were by groups that English and American radio chieftains saw only as album acts." ( http://www.charismalabel.com/tpcmarticle.htm)
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I believe we were talking about USA.
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Jimmy_row's original statement was regarding the time when Prog was at it's peak, which was from 1970 through to 1976, he made no reference to any country. I referenced the UK since that was the epicentre of the growth (and decline) of Prog Rock in the 70s...
I was not being Anglo-centric in the facts I stated - I was just reflecting what I witnessed first hand in the UK in the 1970s - you made similar statements about your personal experiences of Prog from your youth. I cannot comment on what prog was like in the USA during th 70s because I was not there and had little interest in American music at that time.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
a Gold album in UK means 100,000 copies, that's what Tales sold, at least that's the only certification they have.
Twoweeks in the charts, even in N? 1 means absolutely nothing in economic terms.
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The World-wide status of Silver and Gold album is not related to the number of units sold, but to the percentage of the county's population that bought them. So the USA a Gold album has to sell 5 times more than the UK because the population is 5 times larger. Therefore achieving Gold in any country in the World is a comparable measure of popularity, not wealth.
US Gold = 500,000 from a population of 250,000,000 = 0.2% of population
UK Gold = 100,000 from a population of 50,000,000 = 0.2% of population
So, yes you can make more money by going Gold in the USA, which is why every artist on the planet wants to be big in the USA - but you can make exactly the same amount of money by going Gold in 6 or 7 European countries. To use a modern statistic - Dream Theatre have sold 6 million albums, but only 2 million of those were in the USA - i.e they sell twice as many albums outside their own country.
(btw: Two weeks at No. 1 over the Christmas period means quite a lot as this is the time of high album sales and is equivalent in sales terms to several weeks at No.1 at any other time of the year)
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Spice World by the Spice Girls:
| United Kingdom |
1 (3 Weeks) |
5x Platinum[17] |
1,500,000+ |
There's no comparison, what is manistream and what is not Dean.
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Pre-teen fads like the Spice Girls and Britney Spears are exceptions and do not really relate to Mainstream success either - the vast majority of Mainstream artists sell considerably less than that.
The general trend is exponential with all the artists around the middle to lower regions of the charts selling similar volumes, which is why Unsigned bands can find their downloads in the top-40 and Marillion can release 23 singles over the past 24 years, all of which chart.
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What?
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TGM: Orb
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 21 2007
Location: n/a
Status: Offline
Points: 8052
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Posted: January 07 2008 at 17:19 |
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4. Elitist enough to mock rap, "modern rock" and soul, but I still love blues rock, world, and heavy and classic rock. And classical. And jazz.
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jimmy_row
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 11 2007
Location: Hibernation
Status: Offline
Points: 2601
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Posted: January 07 2008 at 11:41 |
Ivan: Being that you're a huge Genesis fan, as I am, I'm sure you know that they didn't exactly take those singles seriously...many were empty motions or contractual fulfillments, while the earliest ones were aimed at raising awareness for the band, especially in Italy betwenn 71/72 were they became very popular. The band weren't particularly focussed on singles (in fact, they didn't like their songs being cut up and edited), but with management, there's always a contractual obligation or some kind of outside pressure...all the same, most of these singles were released after the records and are just a footnote, meant to promote the album at the time.
I could be wrong, but to me, there's no denying the initial leap in sales that albums from Yes et al took...whether or not they sold consistently through the years, they made a big splash in the charts, and that is definately saying something about their popularity/mainstream appeal
*(Ivan, I'm curious about the geographical appeal of prog in the '70s, because you mention that it was next to unheard of in Peru, while Dean describes a proggers paradise in the UK...makes me think that prog was predominantly an Englsih-speaking movement, while the heavily promoted pop-albums you mentioned *eg Thriller* were marketed around the world to enormous audiences...and probably even bands like The Rolling Stones to a lesser extent.)
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Signature Writers Guild on strike
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el böthy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 27 2005
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 6336
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Posted: January 07 2008 at 11:22 |
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hehehe why do some people get offended and vote for 1 or 0? jajaja YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!
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"You want me to play what, Robert?"
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Philéas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 14 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6419
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Posted: January 07 2008 at 11:14 |
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2 at most these days. More often than not far less.
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Norbert
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 20 2005
Location: Hungary
Status: Offline
Points: 2506
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Posted: January 07 2008 at 07:41 |
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7 of 10 , I guess.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: January 06 2008 at 22:19 |
darqdean wrote:
Length had little to do with it, it was part of the ethos of "serious" music not to release singles (Are you sure?....Look a few lines bellow)- a few bands did release radio-edits of their singles, some had short tracks that could be singles and others threw caution to the wind and released 7 minute singles.
I do believe lenght was a major issues for the radios, I remember some bands like Yes and Manfred Mann's Earth Band had to release single editions shorter than the actual song.
BTW: If Prog artists considered singles not serious......We are before a monumental contradiction, The list of Genesis singles is incredibly extense:
[
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1 The Silent Sun (UK, Decca Acetate)
2 That's Me (UK, Decca Acetate)
3 The Silent Sun / That's Me (UK, Decca Demo F12735)
4 The Silent Sun / That's Me (UK, Decca F12735)
5 The Silent Sun / That's Me (US, Promo, Parrot Rec., 45-PAR 3018)
6 The Silent Sun / That's Me (US, Parrot Rec., 45-PAR 3018)
7 The Silent Sun / That's Me (US, Promo, Unrel.,Parrot Rec., 45-PAR 3018)
8 The Silent Sun / That's Me (CAN, Promo, Parrot Rec., 45-PAR 3018)
9 The Silent Sun / That's Me (CAN, Parrot Rec., 45-PAR 3018)
10 A Winter's Tale / One Eye Hound (UK, Decca, Demo, F-12775)
11 A Winter's Tale / One Eye Hound (UK, Decca, F-12775)
12 A Winter's Tale / One Eye Hound (Australia, Decca, Promo, Y-8383)
13 A Winter's Tale / One Eye Hound (Australia, Decca, Y-8383) |
1 In The Beginning (UK, Decca Acetate)
2 When The Sour Turns To Sweet (UK, Decca, Demo, F12949)
3 When The Sour Turns To Sweet (UK, Decca, F12949)
4 When The Sour Turns To Sweet (N.Z., Decca, DEC.482) |
1 Looking For Someone / Visions Of Angels (UK, Charisma, Promo "Pink", GS 1)
2 Looking For Someone / Visions Of Angels (UK, Charisma, Promo, GS 1)
3 Looking For Someone / Visions Of Angels (US, Audiodisc Acetate)
4 White Mountain (US, MCA, Acetate)
5 Visions Of Angels (US, MCA, Acetate)
6 The Knife (US, MCA, Acetate) |
1 The Knife part.1 / The Knife part.2 (UK, Charisma CB 152)
2 The Knife part.1 / The Knife part.2 (GER, Philips, Promo, 6073 305)
3 The Knife part.1 / The Knife part.2 (GER, Philips, 6073 305 |
1 White Mountain / VV.AA (Italy, Ariston, Promo, PR-22)
2 For Absent Friends / The Fountain Of Salmacis / The Musical Box (US, Charisma EP CG-EP-A/B)
3 The Fountain Of Salmacis (extract) / VV.AA. (US, Buddah, SP50)
4 Happy The Man / VV.AA. (Italy, Ariston Promo PR-35)
5 Happy The Man / Seven Stones (UK, Charisma Promo, CB 181)
6 Happy The Man / Seven Stones (UK, Charisma CB181)
7 Happy The Man / Mama Weer All Crazee Now (The Slade) (Italy,Charisma Juke Box, AS 179)
8 Happy The Man / Seven Stones (Italy, Charisma 6073 316)
9 Happy The Man / Seven Stones (Italy, Philips/Charisma 6073 316) |
1 Watcher Of The Skies / Watcher Of The Skies (US, Charisma, Promo, CAR 103)
2 Watcher Of The Skies / Willow Farm (US, Charisma, CAR 103)
3 Watcher Of The Skies / Willow Farm (GER., Charisma, Promo, 6073 331)
4 Watcher Of The Skies / Willow Farm (GER., Charisma, 6073 331)
5 Watcher Of The Skies / Made Milwaukee Famous (Rod Stewart) (Italy, Charisma Juke Boxe AS 216)
6 Watcher Of The Skies / Willow Farm (Italy, Charisma 6073 331)
7 Watcher Of The Skies / Willow Farm (N.Z., Charisma, 6073 331)
8 Twilight Alehouse (UK, Charisma, Flexidisc)
9 I Know What I Like / After The Ordeal (Fra, Charisma, Promo, 6873 174)
10 I Know What I Like / More Fool Me (Port., Charisma, 6873 174)
11 I Know What I Like / I Know What I Like (US., Charisma, Promo PL, FC 26002)
12 I Know What I Like / I Know What I Like (US., Charisma, Promo MO, FC 26002)
13 I Know What I Like / Twilight Alehouse (US., Charisma, FC 26002 |
1 I Know What I Like / I Know What I Like (US., Charisma, Promo White Label, FC 26002)
2 I Know What I Like / More Fool Me (Spa.., Charisma, Promo 6832 080)
3 I Know What I Like / I Know What I Like (US., Charisma, Promo Center, CB 224)
4 I Know What I Like / I Know What I Like (US., Charisma, Promo Full, CB 224)
5 I Know What I Like / Twilight Alehouse (UK., Charisma, CB 224)
6 I Know What I Like / Twilight Alehouse (Italy., Charisma, 6073 347)
7 I Know What I Like / Twilight Alehouse (Hol., Charisma, 6073 347)
8 I Know What I Like / Twilight Alehouse (Jap., Promo, Charisma, SFL-1857)
9 I Know What I Like / Twilight Alehouse (Jap., Charisma, SFL-1857)
10 I Know What I Like / Twilight Alehouse (N.Z., Charisma, 6073 347)
11 In The Beginning / The Serpent (Italy, Decca, Test, F 22909)
12 In The Beginning / Kansas City (L.H,S.) (Italy, Decca, Promo Juke Box, F 22909)
13 In The Beginning / The Serpent (Italy, Decca F 22909)
14 Counting Out Time / Counting Out Time (UK, Charisma Promo, CB 238)
15 Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (Fra.UK, Charisma Promo, 6873 231)
16 Counting Out Time / Counting Out Time (UK, Charisma , CB 238)
17 Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (Ger., Charisma Promo, 6073 357)
18 Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (Port.., Charisma Promo, 6073 357)
19 Counting Out Time / Timore e Tremore (Mai Lai) (Italy,, Charisma Promo Juke Box, AS 283)
20 Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (Italy., Charisma,, 6073 357)
21 Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (Norv., Charisma Promo, 6073 357)
22 I Know What I Like / I Know What I Like (US., Charisma, Promo SP Blue, FC 26002) |
1 I Know What I Like / More Fool Me / Dancing With The Moonlit Knight
(Bra., Charisma EP 6228 202)
2 Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (Spa., Charisma Promo 6073 357)
3 Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (Spa., Charisma 6073 357)
4 Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (N.Z., Charisma Promo 6073 357)
5 The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway / The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway (US.,ATCO Promo 45-7013)
6 The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway / Counting Out Time (US.,ATCO PL/MO/SP 45-7013)
7 The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway / Counting Out Time / The Grand Parade Of Lifeless Packaging / Back In N.Y.C. (Bra.,Charisma EP 6228 203)
8 The Carpet Crawlers / The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway (Italy, Charisma 6073 363)
9 The Carpet Crawlers / The Waiting Room (UK, Charisma Promo CB 251)
10 The Carpet Crawlers / The Waiting Room (UK, Charisma CB 251)
11 The Carpet Crawlers / The Waiting Room (Australia, Charisma 6073 367)
12 The Carpet Crawlers / The Waiting Room (Port., Charisma 6073 367) |
1 Carpet Crawl / Counting Out Time (Bra., Charisma 6073 374)
2 A Trick Of The Tail / Carpet Crawl (Ger., Charisma 6073 379)
3 I Know What I Like / Carpet Crawlers (Bra., Charisma 6073 395)
4 The Silent Sun (UK, Decca Gold Flexi, SF 1471)
5 In The Beginning / The Serpent (Italy, Decca, White Ch., F 22909)
6 In The Beginning / The Serpent (Italy, Decca, Promo F 22909)
7 I Know What I Like / Counting Out Time (UK, Old Rec. OG-9263 - two labels diff.)
8 I Know What I Like / The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway (US, Atlantic's Oldies Series, OS-13239)
9 I Know What I Like (UK, CD Virgin Value 3" VVCS 10 + 3 tracks)
10 Archive 1967-1975 Sampler (UK, CD 5" Virgin Sampler G-BOX 98)
11 Archive Volume 1 Sampler (UK, CD 5" Virgin Sampler PRCD 8583)
12 Turn It On Again - The Hits Promo (UK, CD 5" Virgin Promo 3 tracks Sampgen8 Lc03098)
13 The Carpet Crawlers 1999 (Promo) (US, CD 5" Atlantic Promo PRCD 9111)
14 The Carpet Crawlers 1999 (Promo) (UK, CD 5" Virginc Promo 7243 896420)
15 The Carpet Crawlers 1999 (Radio Edit) (UK, CD 5" Promo DJ Crawl-CDJ-1)
16 Carpet Crawlers '99 (Acetate Promo) (UK, CD 5" Promo Virgin)
17 The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway / Follow You Follow Me (US, Re-released 7" Atlantic PG 102) |
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More than 50.. pretty lot for a Prog band that supposedly shouldn't release singles in order to be a serious band...BTW: I'm only posting the Gabriel era, imagine after Collins got the lead vocal.
Yes also had their part
Single: Something's Coming
Artist: Yes
1969 Atlantic
2091 199
1. Something's Coming
2. Dear Father
Notes: Thanks to Ruud Ermers.
Single: Your Move
Artist: Yes
1971 Atlantic
7": AT 2819
A. Your Move (3:30)
B. Clap (3:03)
Notes: Label reads "From Atlantic LP 8283 (The Yes Album)". (Terry Burman, 24 Jul 2004)
Single: Your Move/America
Artist: Yes
19?? Atlantic Oldies Series
7": OS-13141 double A-side
1. Your Move [Anderson] (3:30)
2. America (4:06)
Notes: Thanks to Tom Demi.
Single: Anerica
Artist: Yes
1972 Atlantic
ATL 10226
1. America (4.06)
2. Total Mass Retain (3.16)
Notes: Thanks to Ruud Ermers.
Single: Yours is No Disgrace
Artist: Yes
1971 Atlantic
2091 214
1. Yours is No Disgrace (5.40)
2. Your Move (3.28)
3. Sweet Dreams (3.42)
Notes: Thanks to Ruud Ermers.
Single: Roundabout
Artist: Yes
1972 Atlantic
7": 2091 178 [Europe], AT 2854 [North America]
See: Fragile
1. Roundabout
2. Long Distance Runaround
Notes: Thanks to Ruud Ermers & Terry Burman.
Single: Wonderous Stories
Artist: Yes
1977 Atlantic
ATL 10999
See: Going for the One
1. Wonderous Stories (3.45)
2. Parallels (5.52)
Notes: Thanks to Ruud Ermers.
Single: Awaken
Artist: Yes
1977 Atlantic
K 11047
See: Going for the One
1. Awaken pt 1 (6.40)
2. Going for the One (3.40)
Notes: Thanks to Ruud Ermers.
Single: Don't Kill the Whale
Artist: Yes
1978 Atlantic
K11184
See: Tormato
1. Don't Kill the Whale
2. Abilene
Notes: Thanks to Al Spilowey.
Single: Into the Lens
Artist: Yes
1980 Atlantic
ATL 11 622
See: Drama
1. Into the Lens (I am a Camera) (3.44)
2. Does it Really Happen (6.30)
Notes: Thanks to Ruud Ermers.
Single: Roundabout
Artist: Yes
1981 Atlantic
7": PR 415 Q
A. Roundabout (7:23)
B. I've Seen All Good People (7:00)
Notes: Live tracks from Classic Yes. (Terry Burman, 24 Jul 2004) |
We are talking about 11 singles.
We can check a lot of iconic bands and find singles.
Owner of a Lonely Heart, Follow You Follow Me and MTV happened long after the time when Prog was at its peak. I will accept that I Know What I Like may have introduced some people to Genesis, but that was released 6 months after the album hit No. 3 had the effect of boosting sales of the album, not the single itself.
Yes it was long after the album was released, but before ATTW3 there was a massive airplay of Follow You Follow Me.
In the UK in 1973 a single was 0.45 and single album 2.50 and a double was around �5.00. So, to be accurate yes it was 5 times, but comparing a single to TFTO or Lamb (as we were) then it was 10 times.
I believe we were talking about USA.
In the UK TFTO was at Number 1 for two weeks, during December 73/January 74, making it the Christmas album that year, knocking Yellow Brick Road from the top - that's a pretty mainstream achievement, especially as Brain Salad Surgery was at No.2 during the second week - TFTO remained in the Top 40 for 17 weeks, which isn't bad for a double album and better than they achieved for CTTE and Yessongs.
I believe we were talking about USA, but doesn't matter, a Gold album in UK means 100,000 copies, that's what Tales sold, at least that's the only certification they have.
Twoweeks in the charts, even in N? 1 means absolutely nothing in economic terms.
All I can say that it was different in the UK in the early to mid 70s. I have written about this in other threads on this subject, but it is difficult to comprehend just how popular and important Progressive music was to a teenager in the early 70s: record shops would have huge window displays for albums like TFTO and Focus 3; our local store reconstructed the cover for The Least We Can Do Is Wave using a real Van Der Graff generator in their window; if you bought a copy of New Musical Express, Sounds or Melody Maker in that time then Prog was just about the only music mentioned and The Old Grey Whistle Test was the TV programme to watch; the latest Prog releases were the talking point in playgrounds and youth-clubs ... even the Salvation Army in our town ran a disco every week that only played Progressive music.
Yes, UK was a different sutuation than USA and most of the rest of the world, remember that long after, Genesis had to release Three Sides Life for USA in a different version than the UK one that had 4 sides live, because the label feared that the Prog side wouldn't sell and they filled it with tracks as Paperlate.
Saturday Night Fever and Disco did not appear until 1978 and by then it was all over for Prog anyway, (even Punk was dead by 1978).
Maybe in England, but for USA and Latin America it was released in 1977 and was a phenomenom months before due to radio.
Again, MTV arrived long after the hey-day of Prog so is not relevant and in the 1970s the Grammys didn't mean very much in the UK ... even now they are only mentioned as a footnote on the News if a Brit wins one.
You keep talking about your UK universe, but check the rest of the world, even in UK, Proig was for a minority, the numbers of albums sold don't lie, lets see the best Yes albums and what BRITISH certifications they got:
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BPI
Silver: Means 60,000 albums
Gold: Means 100,000 albums
Platinuum: Means 300,000 albums
YES , TALES FROM TOPOGRAPHIC OCEANS , Silver , Fri Mar 1 1974
YES , TALES FROM TOPOGRAPHIC OCEANS , Gold , Fri Mar 1 1974
(TFTO was the first ever album to ship GOLD under new guidelines)
YES , GOING FOR THE ONE , Silver , Mon Sep 19 1977
YES , GOING FOR THE ONE , Gold , Mon Sep 19 1977
YES , TORMATO , Silver , Wed Sep 13 1978
YES , TORMATO , Gold , Wed Sep 13 1978
YES , DRAMA , Silver , Thu Sep 11 1980
YES , YESSHOW , Silver , Thu Jan 1 1981
YES , 90125 , Silver , Wed Dec 28 1983
YES , CLOSE TO THE EDGE , Silver , Wed Dec 5 1984
YES , CLOSE TO THE EDGE , Gold , Wed Dec 5 1984
YES , CLOSE TO THE EDGE , Platinum , Wed Dec 5 1984
YES , 90125 , Gold , Wed Jan 2 1985
YES , FRAGILE , Silver , Thu Sep 29 1988
YES , FRAGILE , Gold , Thu Sep 29 1988
YES , FRAGILE , Platinum , Thu Sep 29 1988
YES , CLASSIC , Silver , Sun Mar 1 1992
YES , THE ULTIMATE YES COLLECTION - 35TH ANNIVERSARY , Silver , Fri Aug 15 2003
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Only Close to the Edge and Fragile have Platinum certificate (300,000 albums)
CTTE achieved Platinum only in 1984, this means they took 10 years to sell 300,000 albums. THAT'S NOTHING.
Fragile reached Platinum in 1988, theis means they took 17 years to sell 300,000 album, even worst.
I don't know the UK population, but 300,000 albums in ten and seventeen years is not worth the investment if you think only in economic yterns, now compare with some popular musicians:
Thriller by Michael Jaclkson:
| UK |
11x Platinum |
3,570,000 |
Oops I did it Again by Britney Spears:
Spice World by the Spice Girls:
| United Kingdom |
1 (3 Weeks) |
5x Platinum[17] |
1,500,000+ |
There's no comparison, what is manistream and what is not Dean.
Iván
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Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 06 2008 at 22:39
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keith_emerson
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 30 2006
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 155
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Posted: January 06 2008 at 21:21 |
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OMG that statics post of Ivan terrified me...
I voted a 10 just for fun, but certainly I would deserve an 8.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: January 06 2008 at 20:23 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
darqdean wrote:
Prog bands didn't do singles - it wasn't the cool thing to do. Singles reflect AM radio success, not mainstream popularity. During the 1970s albums became an entity in their own right and were not a just a vehicle for selling singles.
Prog bands couldn't do singles because of the lenght, but Singles were the vehicle to sell albums as it's now and always, people bought 90125 because Owner of a Lonely Heart was a hit single with MTV video and everything, in the same way And Then There Were Three was sold mainly because of Follow You Follow Me. |
Length had little to do with it, it was part of the ethos of "serious" music not to release singles - a few bands did release radio-edits of their singles, some had short tracks that could be singles and others threw caution to the wind and released 7 minute singles.
Owner of a Lonely Heart, Follow You Follow Me and MTV happened long after the time when Prog was at its peak. I will accept that I Know What I Like may have introduced some people to Genesis, but that was released 6 months after the album hit No. 3 had the effect of boosting sales of the album, not the single itself.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
In terms of monetary success 100,000 albums was equal to 1,000,000 singles.
Of course it coisted more, but not siop much as 10 times, A 45 RPM costed 2 bucks and the average cost in the 70's of a 33 RPM Prog LP was US$ 7.00, so it0s a bit more than three times.
But the strategy was to sell 2 or 3 singles, sell millions, then place them in an LP with 7 otgher songs and sell oit again.
Any album that had 2 or 3 hit singles had more chance to be massively sold. |
In the UK in 1973 a single was �0.45 and single album �2.50 and a double was around �5.00. So, to be accurate yes it was 5 times, but comparing a single to TFTO or Lamb (as we were) then it was 10 times.
I am not disagreeing with the single strategy for bands like T. Rex, Slade or even 10cc, but for the Prog bands of the early 70s singles were not of primary importance - they were more interested in selling albums and if they did release a single it was to get interest in the album.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Charts are meaningful and meaningless in equal measures DSotM never reached No.1, yet remained in the top-40 for 211 weeks whereas TFTO hit No.1 but never achieved long-term sales at the time because as a double album it was expensive.
DSotM was an exception and I mentioned, but Tales reached place 6 ONE WEEK, nothing more, this represents nothing in economic terms, 500,.000 albums (Gold Certificate from 1974 on in USA and 100,000 in UK) is nothing and I stand on this. |
In the UK TFTO was at Number 1 for two weeks, during December 73/January 74, making it the Christmas album that year, knocking Yellow Brick Road from the top - that's a pretty mainstream achievement, especially as Brain Salad Surgery was at No.2 during the second week - TFTO remained in the Top 40 for 17 weeks, which isn't bad for a double album and better than they achieved for CTTE and Yessongs.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
In the 1970s there was a far wider generation-gap in the record buying public than today - among the teenage and young adult demographics Prog was the most popular genre, however Prog wasn't as partisan in 1973 as it is now - the average Prog fan was as likely to buy TFTO as they were Bob Marley, Led Zepp and Linda Ronstadt and the charts reflect that.
I doont know what to say about this, but at least my Proghead frieds and me only bought Prog in the 70's, the top selling albums were Saturday Night Fever, or Grease Soundtracks, Tina Charles, Donna Summer, Franky Valli, etc, as aleways the charts were flooded by music totally different to Prog. |
All I can say that it was different in the UK in the early to mid 70s. I have written about this in other threads on this subject, but it is difficult to comprehend just how popular and important Progressive music was to a teenager in the early 70s: record shops would have huge window displays for albums like TFTO and Focus 3; our local store reconstructed the cover for The Least We Can Do Is Wave using a real Van Der Graff generator in their window; if you bought a copy of New Musical Express, Sounds or Melody Maker in that time then Prog was just about the only music mentioned and The Old Grey Whistle Test was the TV programme to watch; the latest Prog releases were the talking point in playgrounds and youth-clubs ... even the Salvation Army in our town ran a disco every week that only played Progressive music.
Saturday Night Fever and Disco did not appear until 1978 and by then it was all over for Prog anyway, (even Punk was dead by 1978).
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Yes you can argue that Prog wasn't as popular as Mainstream, but it was part of the mainstream.
I don't believe so, mainstream was what you heard on the radios, what won the Grammys, what reached MTV and Prog was not part of that.
Iv�n |
Again, MTV arrived long after the hay-day of Prog so is not relevant and in the 1970s the Grammys didn't mean very much in the UK ... even now they are only mentioned as a footnote on the News if a Brit wins one.
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Edited by darqdean - January 06 2008 at 22:10
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What?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: January 06 2008 at 12:25 |
darqdean wrote:
Prog bands didn't do singles - it wasn't the cool thing to do. Singles reflect AM radio success, not mainstream popularity. During the 1970s albums became an entity in their own right and were not a just a vehicle for selling singles.
Prog bands couldn't do singles because of the lenght, but Singles were the vehicle to sell albums as it's now and always, people bought 90125 because Owner of a Lonely Heart was a hit single with MTV video and everything, in the same way And Then There Were Three was sold mainly because of Follow You Follow Me.
In terms of monitary success 100,000 albums was equal to 1,000,000 singles.
Of course it coisted more, but not siop much as 10 times, A 45 RPM costed 2 bucks and the average cost in the 70's of a 33 RPM Prog LP was US$ 7.00, so it0s a bit more than three times.
But the strategy was to sell 2 or 3 singles, sell millions, then place them in an LP with 7 otgher songs and sell oit again.
Any album that had 2 or 3 hit singles had more chance to be massively sold.
Charts are meaningful and meaningless in equal measures DSotM never reached No.1, yet remained in the top-40 for 211 weeks whereas TFTO hit No.1 but never achieved long-term sales at the time because as a double album it was expensive.
DSotM was an exception and I mentioned, but Tales reached place 6 ONE WEEK, nothing more, this represents nothing in economic terms, 500,.000 albums (Gold Certificate from 1974 on in USA and 100,000 in UK) is nothing and I stand on this.
In the 1970s there was a far wider generation-gap in the record buying public than today - amoung the teenage and young adult demographics Prog was the most popular genre, however Prog wasn't as partisan in 1973 as it is now - the average Prog fan was as likely to buy TFTO as they were Bob Marley, Led Zepp and Linda Ronstadt and the charts reflect that.
I doont know what to say about this, but at least my Proghead frieds and me only bought Prog in the 70's, the top selling albums were Saturday Night Fever, or Grease Soundtracks, Tina Charles, Donna Summer, Franky Valli, etc, as aleways the charts were flooded by music totally different to Prog.
Yes you can argue that Prog wasn't as popular as Mainstream, but it was part of the mainstream.
I don't believe so, mainstream was what you heard on the radios, what won the Grammys, what reached MTV and Prog was not part of that.
Iván |
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el böthy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 27 2005
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 6336
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Posted: January 06 2008 at 12:22 |
Nash wrote:
9, Im really an elitist, i cant stand other music styles, but, i can consider some songs of different bands, only that, then prog rock |
You truly are a music snob 
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"You want me to play what, Robert?"
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Rate yourself! (Prog elitism)
