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Dick Heath View Drop Down
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Points: 12812 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Patto-Last chance to prove a "valid prog
    Posted: June 28 2007 at 05:57
Just been advised to check out the dedicated Ollie Halsall website, and now suggest others do the same wrt assessing Patto and categorisation:
where you can down load for nothing, tracks from the Patto "lost jazz rock album". But read the attached message about the reality of this being a "lost album".  Certainly these recordings are jazz rock for the most part. They also demonstrate the schizoid nature of the band's music (and a carry over from Timebox), i.e.  keeping themselves within comparatively restrained boundaries on studio albums without completely shifting into mainstream jazz rock, whilst letting loose (musically as well as other things!), when touring.
 
In other words I'm inclined to shift my position on inclusion of  the band, and although the majority of their familiar recordings put them firmly in the pub-rock ala R. Stewart & The Faces territory. I most strongly recommend that  if they do end up in the jazz rock fusion section, the biography author must emphasise this schizoidal element in their music and point to their live music often being a considerable extrapolation from the studio recordings, especially with the jazz elements coming to the fore - and show the weblink above, as well as one to Patto.


Edited by Dick Heath - June 28 2007 at 10:56
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Points: 12812 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2007 at 11:52
Perhaps by knowing Patto evolved out of Timebox, who called themselves 'jazz rock', before virtually any other UK band, might give limited support. However,  the Decca CD Timebox compilation does little to prove they were jazz rock in their recordings. In fact they were aiming at the UK pop charts, beit with Ollie Halsall playing vibes as opposed to a an electric guitar in the instrumental solo middle 8 on their two very minor hits.
As I've written elsewhere, playing a jazzy middle 8 in a pop hit, wasn't unusual, e.g the Zombies did it!  But I can report (again) that on my one occasion of seeing Timebox, their live set had more space for jazzy solos and less for the pop-stuff. There was also  the strange sight of Halsall apparently destroying his vibes (ala Keith Moon) at the end of the set, only to see him then recover all the strikers in one movement, since they were all attached to a long piece of heavy duty cloth tape. Ironically Timebox announced their cessation as a band, "'as there was no interest in jazz rock in the UK', only a few weeks before the successful jazz rock group Colosseum announced its formation!


Edited by Dick Heath - June 28 2007 at 05:58
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Points: 20240 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2007 at 03:34
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

If you want comparisons in addition to Rod Stewart &The Faces , listen to the hard rock evolving (I daren't use "progressing" because of the local misinterpretation):
 
Stud - similar or greater number of experiments with rock/other music hybrids on the first Patto album.
Skid Row, especially second album 34 Hours - rock with lots of unusually time signatures.
 
Pioneering rock but not prog .
 
It seems that Patto was a schizophrenic band with two different faces:
 
The first is indeed the Rod Stewart type of Faces rock (for years, I thought this was the way they were, I only heard an awful purple and green artwork album, which was not prog)
 
 
the second is the jazz-rock of their debut album (I only heard this one two years ago) and most likely this album:
 
 
Haven't heard the rest of the album, though!
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Dick Heath View Drop Down
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Points: 12812 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2007 at 13:20
If you want comparisons in addition to Rod Stewart &The Faces , listen to the hard rock evolving (I daren't use "progressing" because of the local misinterpretation):
 
Stud - similar or greater number of experiments with rock/other music hybrids on the first Patto album.
Skid Row, especially second album 34 Hours - rock with lots of unusually time signatures.
 
Pioneering rock but not prog .


Edited by Dick Heath - June 26 2007 at 13:21
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Points: 4252 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2007 at 12:17
^great band Patto - the Faces/Rod Stewart comparison is a good one, though they play jazz too.Smile
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Points: 12812 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2007 at 12:26
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by 10string 10string wrote:

Soooo, any news on Patto??


One of the things you need to understand about this website and the prog-related category is that it's absolutely low priority. Why is it so very important to you that this band gets added?
 
Mike I think Patto is definitely prog enough to be included much higher than the prog-related category.
 
They have Blues-jazz rock music but whether to put them inside Art Rock or JR/F is my dilemna.
 
But importantly Patto weren't thought of as prog when they were around - this site gets too revisionist for its own good. What is the point of incorporating every rock band that experimented and then settled down to their own particular, characteristic form of rock - btw of the later Patto albums are pretty aweful. As said before,  the second Patto album, Hold Your Fire,  has echoes of the Faces' music for me.
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Points: 20240 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2007 at 05:04
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by 10string 10string wrote:

Soooo, any news on Patto??


One of the things you need to understand about this website and the prog-related category is that it's absolutely low priority. Why is it so very important to you that this band gets added?
 
Mike I think Patto is definitely prog enough to be included much higher than the prog-related category.
 
They have Blues-jazz rock music but whether to put them inside Art Rock or JR/F is my dilemna.
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Points: 21149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2007 at 02:11
Originally posted by 10string 10string wrote:

Soooo, any news on Patto??


One of the things you need to understand about this website and the prog-related category is that it's absolutely low priority. Why is it so very important to you that this band gets added?
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Points: 27802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2007 at 17:16
Originally posted by 10string 10string wrote:

Patto...
Listen to all the records and look at me in the eye and tell me it's NOT prog...
Are The Doors, Led Zep and a slew of other bands  on this site-that I am suspecting are included here because of the links to Amozon to buy them- REALLY prog?
Not really...
 
I missed this at first.Those bands were NOT included here because of the Amazon links,they were included after literally YEARS of debate.


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Points: 20240 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2007 at 04:00
Originally posted by 10string 10string wrote:

Soooo, any news on Patto??
 
Can I propose you that you write the bio of the group and PM it to me?
 
I'll open up the Artiste entry page , credit you for the bio then all you'll have to do is add the albums by clicking on the Add Album button down the page.
 
Waddya say?
let's just stay above the moral melee
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keep our sand-castle virtues
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prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Points: 11 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2007 at 11:02
Soooo, any news on Patto??
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2007 at 13:18
I have their first two albums and shall give them a listen sometime soon.
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Points: 12812 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2007 at 13:11
Originally posted by 10string

Yes , the third one "Smoke 'em ...." is NOT the place to start listening to them, and it WAS a stoned mess as far as the last track"Cap'n P and the Attos" goes, which they admit to recording under acid -and "Mother" a very disturbing "song"- but it has moments of utter brilliance-"singing the blues on reds", "Flat footed woman", the proto punk "Loud green song", etc.
 
[/QUOTE]
Absolutely - having that stinker of an album for many years, it  has been a major reason for not checking out the earlier Patto recordngs,  until these became part of an irresistable offer  locally, last year. Hold Your Fire is great and one of my top ten record purchases of 2007. But prog....???!!
 
What I hear from Patto release 1 and 2 , is music more akin to The Faces (before they became known as Rod Stewart & The Faces), good time, boozy rock - what we might call pub rock nowdays. It is evitably that because Patto had the inclination and the freedom to experiment, especially with Ollie Hassell on board, (and so many bands did 1970 -72),  35 years later some may say this was prog rock - however, doesn't we called it prog rock back then.


Edited by Dick Heath - March 29 2007 at 13:21
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Points: 11 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2007 at 12:17
Yes , the third one "Smoke 'em ...." is NOT the place to start listening to them, and it WAS a stoned mess as far as the last track"Cap'n P and the Attos" goes, which they admit to recording under acid -and "Mother" a very disturbing "song"- but it has moments of utter brilliance-"singing the blues on reds", "Flat footed woman", the proto punk "Loud green song", etc.
 
Please also listen to the extra tracks on "Sense of the Absurd" which contain a LOT of jazz/rock jamming.
 
As fas as the best place to start , it would be "Hold your fire", with "Air Raid Shelter" being a great example of Prog , as I know it, .time signature changes with virtuosistic/clarinet phrasing fluid guitar from Monsieur Halsall...
 
It was a musician's band , and let's not forget that Mr Halsall recorded a still unreleased Holy Grail with the Frippster, "The Blue Traffs" in 1972, which I think is still under RF's possesion.
 
I wouldn't say they're Prog related , but Prog... but hey , I'm wrong often...
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by salmacis salmacis wrote:

Yes, it perhaps would have been more productive to have avoided the 'X is here, so should Y be' argument. I'm undecided about Patto- I think you may have a case with the debut album, which if memory recalls mentions in the sleevenotes something about the contents within being 'jazz rock' (don't take my word for it though, could be wrong). It's not jazz rock in the Weather Report/Return To Forever sense, imo, in fact I'd have said this was more like Tempest- who Ollie Halsall played with later, of course- but I think this debut could perhaps be reason for the band to be considered.
 
I've only heard parts of 'Hold Your Fire' and I thought it was much more in line with heavy rock than prog. Having not heard all of it, I'm not sure I could judge on that but I did own their third album 'Roll Em Smoke Em Put Another Line Out' and that WAS a sloppy, stoned mess (and I am NOT calling their whole discography that, just that one album), imho. If you liked it, fine- I would say it had its moments but I found it to lack the spark of the earlier ones. That one's not even prog related, again imo.
 
So based on what I've heard, I'm undecided personally. If they were to be added, I wouldn't mind but equally if they weren't, I wouldn't mind much either.
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Points: 20240 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2007 at 04:00
For Patto , in the absence of progressive blues (one of the rare times I would use this subgenre along with Backdoor) , I propose JR/F
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Points: 20030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2007 at 17:36
We did indeed receive a submission for Patto last month. They were suggested as being prog-related so it was passed on to the Admin team.
Actually they were already on the list of artists to be discussed.
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Points: 27802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2007 at 12:46
Originally posted by 10string 10string wrote:

I got confused-thanks for the Move...
 
Originally posted by TheProgtologist TheProgtologist wrote:

There is a section in this forum specifically for members to propose new bands for addition to the archives.
 
It's called..............
 
drumroll please..............
 
Suggest New Bands/Artists
 
No problem,10string.


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Points: 3928 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2007 at 12:16

EDIT



Edited by salmacis - March 28 2007 at 12:16
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Points: 3928 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2007 at 12:01
Yes, it perhaps would have been more productive to have avoided the 'X is here, so should Y be' argument. I'm undecided about Patto- I think you may have a case with the debut album, which if memory recalls mentions in the sleevenotes something about the contents within being 'jazz rock' (don't take my word for it though, could be wrong). It's not jazz rock in the Weather Report/Return To Forever sense, imo, in fact I'd have said this was more like Tempest- who Ollie Halsall played with later, of course- but I think this debut could perhaps be reason for the band to be considered.
 
I've only heard parts of 'Hold Your Fire' and I thought it was much more in line with heavy rock than prog. Having not heard all of it, I'm not sure I could judge on that but I did own their third album 'Roll Em Smoke Em Put Another Line Out' and that WAS a sloppy, stoned mess (and I am NOT calling their whole discography that, just that one album), imho. If you liked it, fine- I would say it had its moments but I found it to lack the spark of the earlier ones. That one's not even prog related, again imo.
 
So based on what I've heard, I'm undecided personally. If they were to be added, I wouldn't mind but equally if they weren't, I wouldn't mind much either.


Edited by salmacis - March 28 2007 at 12:17
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Points: 11 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2007 at 11:55
I got confused-thanks for the Move...
 
Originally posted by TheProgtologist TheProgtologist wrote:

There is a section in this forum specifically for members to propose new bands for addition to the archives.
 
It's called..............
 
drumroll please..............
 
Suggest New Bands/Artists
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