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Topic ClosedSaga - Prog or not? Comments are now allo
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Poll Question: Do you think Saga have a right to be included as a 'Prog' band?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
36 [64.29%]
20 [35.71%]
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Melomaniac View Drop Down
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    Posted: December 20 2007 at 10:18

True, Saga dabbled in pop in their mid career, but listen to the first four albums, then Generation 13 and every album since Full Circle (including the excellent House of Cards, Network, Trust and 10,000 Days)and tell me they're not prog !  Watch for that incredible keyboard-guitar interplay, the fact that Sadler sings, plays keyboards and bass, Jim Crichton plays bass & keyboards, Gilmour plays keyboards and clarinet, the complex arrangments, a sound they can call their own, the obvious Camel and Gentle Giant influences in some places, and the Chapters...  and what you have is a full-fledged prog band.  I always thought that putting them in prog-related was an insult to their masterliness.
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Points: 346 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2007 at 19:41
yesssssss they have tree or more albums that is pure prog so i said yesss they are prog
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Points: 3928 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2007 at 04:14
I must confess I only heard one full album of Saga, which is meant to be their most 'prog' album 'Generation 13'. I think it's pretty poor stuff, personally; I've tried to get into it many, many times but it's a messy affair, IMHO. But could it be called prog? No question about that, I just don't like it very much is all. Have to say though that the 80s stuff I heard was more AOR.
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Points: 108 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2007 at 14:22
Originally posted by progrules progrules wrote:

Early Saga was quite prog I think. But it must be said, that has faded over the years.
Some time ago progarchives put this band in the categorie "Art rock" (nowadays crossover). That's a possibility, isn't it ? I agree more with that than prog related.
By the way I voted prog rock.


Wow, it's a long time since this poll was started by myself...smiles

I think Saga have always been on and off with the use of prog elements, even within individual albums, but I have to say that if you are truly subjective, you will see that it is way more on than off. by contrast, I could level the same argument against several other 'prog' bands, that are not labelled 'Prog Related'. I am pleased that throughout this poll, people were leaning more towards 'prog' than 'prog related' by some margin, and I also feel that prior to the new categories, they were far more suited to 'Art Rock' than the 'Prog Related' category. I still feel that, even within the more 'pop' orientated material, there are strong prog elements, and the mistake most people make, is to allow the overall sound and feel, to cloud the more intricate work inherent in most of what Saga produce.

I think 'Crossover' is far more apt than any other currently available category, so I for one would be extremely pleased to see them out of the 'Prog Related' category, out of respect for their very unique contribution to Prog.

For those of you who feel the proggier (excuse my invention of this adjetive'...smiles)side is limited to the earlier period of Saga's career, try listening to 'Trust', especially the last few tracks, and listen in particular to the counterpoint contained in the last track, 'On The Other Side'

Many thanks to all of those contributed to this poll...each and everyone of you!...smiles
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Points: 46838 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2007 at 12:11
ahhhh.. Dean and I, along with the admin team, will take a look at this... thanks guys.. ..... and gals HeartLOL
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Points: 66607 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2007 at 06:56
Originally posted by progrules progrules wrote:

Early Saga was quite prog I think. But it must be said, that has faded over the years.
Some time ago progarchives put this band in the categorie "Art rock" (nowadays crossover). That's a possibility, isn't it ? I agree more with that than prog related.
By the way I voted prog rock.
 
I agree 100% with this.  I think that Saga are a perfect candidate to be moved to the renamed Crossover subgenre.
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Points: 958 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2007 at 04:28
Early Saga was quite prog I think. But it must be said, that has faded over the years.
Some time ago progarchives put this band in the categorie "Art rock" (nowadays crossover). That's a possibility, isn't it ? I agree more with that than prog related.
By the way I voted prog rock.
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akin View Drop Down
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Points: 976 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2006 at 12:42
I've only heard one live Saga album. It is somewhat prog, but it is live, so I don't know how their overall sound is.
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Points: 8138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2006 at 15:04
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:



Later albums are more pop based or straight rock and often cliched.

  
You could say the same about Genesis, Yes, ELP, Banco...
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Points: 4309 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2006 at 11:56
For what I've heard of them, I think they're prog.
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2006 at 11:53
With respect, Bob, I would hardly consider either Wikipedia or Last FM to be authoritative sources!


Let's examine the GEPR article:

"Canadian band who got off to a great start, and have tailed off quite a bit recently. Saga, Images at Twilight, Silent Knight and Worlds Apart are all classics combining multiple keyboards and great lead guitar work. Later albums are more pop based or straight rock and often cliched. Wildest Dreams is especially cliched. Security of Illusion reunites the orignal lineup, but the results are still in the AOR vein. Steven Negus does some *excellent* drumming on this album, BTW.

Saga was/is possibly the first neo-prog band. Cert’s Question: How, exactly? It doesn't sound like any Neo Prog I've ever heard.

Their music has two distinct faces - a progressive sound derivative of Yes and perhaps a little Genesis, Cert’s Question: Really? In what way? I’ve never heard any Yes or Genesis music that is so blatantly riff-based.

and a fairly unique pop sound which seems to be their own. The early albums balance these two sides nicely, offering songs that are both accessible and interesting. (…)


The band's debut may be classified as the first neo-prog album. Cert’s Question: How, exactly? It doesn't sound like any Neo Prog I've ever heard.

Marred by two disco-ish songs, still, there's some fine German-styled synth work here though Cert’s Question: Can someone enlighten me on what “German-styled synth work sounds like, and its relevance to Neo-Prog?..

The track "Ice Nice" may be one of the band's best songs ever. Michael Sadler's faux-Anglo voice may get on some people's nerves. Silent Knight is probably the best, opening with the memorable "Don't Be Late". Their albums are solidly in the neo-prog mould, Cert’s Question: How, exactly? It doesn't sound like any Neo Prog I've ever heard... I hate bald statements with no supporting evidence, especially repeated ones…

but the playing and writing are of high quality Clearly Mike neither likes nor listens to Neo-Prog to make a statement like that!. -- Mike Ohman"

    

Edited by Certif1ed - July 21 2006 at 11:55
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Points: 1823 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2006 at 06:38
http://www.gepr.net/safram.html
 
"Saga was/is possibly the first neo-prog band"
 
Seriously, I've never heard Saga in my life and don't know if they're prog or not. Embarrassed


Edited by Bob Greece - July 21 2006 at 06:44


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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saga_%28band%29
 
"Saga is a Progressive rock quintet"


Edited by Bob Greece - July 21 2006 at 06:39


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http://www.last.fm/music/Saga/+tags
 
See how huge the "Progressive Rock" tag is?


Edited by Bob Greece - July 21 2006 at 06:39


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^From the link: "catchy, chorus oriented songs". And that's from a raving fanboy.

Case closed.
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http://www.dprp.net/proghistory/index.php?i=1995_02


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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2006 at 05:58
Originally posted by BilboBaggins BilboBaggins wrote:


Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Saga are definitely Prog-metal related - the music on their first two albums is almost entirely riff-driven, which is a characteristic of Prog metal, but NOT of Prog Rock.

The keyboards seem decorative rather than contrapuntal - the comparisons with Marillion are erroneous for that reason.

They experiment within a naroow Rock formula - and are fully deserving of Prog-Related, but not Neo-Prog, as their music has nothing in common with Neo-Prog and everything in common with stadium rock bands like Styx, REO Speedwagon, Journey and Foreigner.

But you can hear where Queensryche evolved from, and hence Dream Theater - so the Prog metal link is strong.

If there's any actual evidence rather than bald statements (as we've seen so far) about how Saga "changed Prog forever" or any other aspects of real progginess in their music, then I'm as open as ever to consideration - but I simply don't hear any.
Look my friend, I think I had better leave this alone as we are just going around in circles. I would say of the above selection that there is a clear divide between the mainstream rock bands you have mentioned (although Styx have had their Prog albums) and what Saga do on some albums. It's funny but the poll suggests a clear majority of people have come down in favour of them being Prog, most of the radio stations on PRRN play Saga as Prog...and why?..because they have always been considered Prog! You know i'm in the UK and the Progheads in my community definitely saw what they were doing was blending the complexities of Prog with a more mainstream Pop Rock rhythm sometimes. This should have made them globally commercial but because their music still wasn't mainstream, they were not commercially successful outside of Germany.In a last ditch attempt to see if you see what I see, try listening to 'The Chapters' in order! Then if by any chance you like them, go back to the first albums and try again.You mentioned Prog Metal...great because I'd rather they were in there rather than in Prog Related! At least Prog Metal is a real sub genre of Prog Rock. Having given them further consideration though I actually think Neo Progressive is the best category for them. In my humble opinion they were doing what Marillion did 4 or 5 years before and more consistantly...hows that for a 'Humble Stance'?

    
The only "circle" here is the traditional "yes it is", "no it isn't" of debate, which is what a discussion forum is for.

So far, the "yes it is" side have only managed bald statements of opinion unbacked by any facts - indeed, some claims are so outlandish as to give the game away entirely to the "no it isn't" side:

For example, there are no similarities whatsoever between Saga's early music and Marillion's - Marillion were almost entirely contrpuntal, while Saga were almost entirely riff-based (as the obvious starting point!).

And I don't see Prog Metal as a "real" sub-genre of Prog Rock, as it subscribes more to repetitious riffs than chord progressions and polyphony, as well as sticking more closely to standard song form.

Prog Metal is different to Prog Rock, although it draws inspiration from it - it is far more a subgenre of Metal than of Prog Rock.
    

Edited by Certif1ed - July 21 2006 at 05:58
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2006 at 05:51
Originally posted by Teaflax Teaflax wrote:

(...)

I could be kind and call them Prog Lite, maybe. But when you have that
kind of short, repetitive, non-modulating cadence-bound melody as your
stock-in-trade, you're just not Prog, and obviously not trying to be,
either.



You don't even have to go into the "technical" details - just listening to the standard intro/verse/chorus forms and preponderance of riffs is enough to do the classification.

Prog Rock transcends verse/chorus song form, and rarely uses riffs, as it is intrinsically chord progression based.


I suppose that will get me into trouble with the Prog metal fans... again
     


Maybe we could list Prog albums from 1976-1980 and make the comparisons that way - as that would put Saga into a better context.

Let's pick out some competition at random from that era, as these are the bands and albums that we must necessarily compare Saga to:

Barclay James Harvest: Octoberon, Gone To Earth, XII
Holgar Czukay: Movies
Genesis: A Trick of The Tail, Wind and Wuthering, And Then There Were Three, Duke
Gong: Gazeuse, Shamal, Mother Gong's Fairy Tales
Here & Now: Give & Take, What You See is What You Are
Steve Hackett: Please Don't Touch, Spectral Mornings, Defector
Hawkwind: Astounding Sounds, Roadhawks, Quark Strangeness and Charm, Masters of the Universe, P.X.R.5, Levitation
Steve Hillage: L, Motivation Radio, Green
King Crimson: The Young Person's Guide to..., Discipline
Pink Floyd: Wish You Were Here, Animals, The Wall
Klaus Schultze: Moondawn, Mirage, Body Love, X, Dune, Dig It
Twelfth Night: Live at the Target, First and Second Tape Albums


Still think Saga are Prog?

The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Points: 1225 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2006 at 17:32
Anyone who thinks Saga is Prog is widening the term way too much. It does explain why there is such tolerance for bands that write average Pop/rock tunes that would be indistinguishable from anything on the radio, but the add some instrumental flash to it. Prog is not about taking ordinary music and adding a few elements of a non-standard sound, it's about an entire attitude of wanting to move away from and improve on regular Rock (in the wide sense). So, you can't really - as some have argued before on Saga - see a step back as a progression of Prog. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Back when I was getting into Prog in the mid-eighties, no one I knew considered Saga Prog, and the only kids in my school who liked them much were Metal and Rock fans.

I could be kind and call them Prog Lite, maybe. But when you have that kind of short, repetitive, non-modulating cadence-bound melody as your stock-in-trade, you're just not Prog, and obviously not trying to be, either.
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Points: 11979 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2006 at 17:15
I must get a listen to Nobody!
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