Saga - Prog or not? Comments are now allo
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Forum Name: Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
Forum Description: Discuss bands and albums classified as Proto-Prog and Prog-Related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25826
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Topic: Saga - Prog or not? Comments are now allo
Posted By: BilboBaggins
Subject: Saga - Prog or not? Comments are now allo
Date Posted: July 07 2006 at 08:50
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Whether you are a Saga fan or not, please give this some thought! There are no winners or losers in this poll!...smiles
Many thanks ------------- Thoughtfullness |
Replies:
Posted By: BilboBaggins
Date Posted: July 07 2006 at 19:14
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Interesting voting...quite revealing
------------- Thoughtfullness |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 11:02
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notice no-one is willing to actually say why they voted yes I chose Related for the obvious reasons of the other thread ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 11:05
Ok, to those in favor of voting "Prog Rock": Which is Saga's most progressive album? I'll listen to that, and then I'll vote. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: Masque
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 11:47
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I think they are pop prog, since there isn`t pop prog (more pop than prog) I`ll go with prog related
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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 11:52
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Are they related to Prog-METAL? I kinda figured that because Mike said something about himself voting for Saga... In that case, I'll gladly listen to their proggiest album myself as well.
-- Ivan ------------- sig |
Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 11:58
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I voted Prog Rock as I'm not sure whether they are prog-related, neo-prog or Art Rock. Notwithsatnding the subgenre they are prog rock!
I tend to see them as a precursor for neo-prog. A "New-prog" subgenre (meaning post-punk/post-Then-There-Were-Three) would have covered both Saga and neo-prog.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 12:01
I don't think they are related in any way to prog metal ...  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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ivansfr0st wrote:Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 12:06
You mentioned something about voting on them as I thought that it maybe would be a PMT activity thing. 
-- Ivan ------------- sig |
Posted By: ANDREW
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 14:46
I agree with you.
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Posted By: horza
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 14:56
Definately prog - Humble Stance and The Perfectionist are classic prog tracks IMO  ------------- Originally posted by darkshade: Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot. |
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 17:48
| Hardly even prog-related, so I didn't vote. |
Posted By: Zac M
Date Posted: July 10 2006 at 01:27
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Only heard one album (Heads or Tails), it's not even really PR, but I won't vote-can't judge a band on one album, but I have to say "Heads or Tails" has put me off from buying anymore Saga. ------------- "Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression." -Merleau-Ponty |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: July 10 2006 at 02:07
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I have to admit that I was shocked to see them here at all. I only knew them from the hit they had back in the '80s. I never gave them much thought after that. A buddy of mine gave me a copy of their new album to listen to. To my surprise, I found it quite proggy. It's nothing earth shattering, but it's a fun listen. Based on that, I can be comfortable with prog related. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: BigBrownBear
Date Posted: July 11 2006 at 13:14
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Just listen to the first 4 or 5 albums, plus several since then including those after the band reunited, and listen carefully. Take away what appears to be a 'pop rock' drum sound (although closer instpection reveals some subtleties that may surprise some) and listen to the escellent keyboard and guitar work. They should be expecially congratulated for breaking the mold that prog had conformed to up to the end of the seventies. They evolved where others followed suit. Please to take those 'Proghead' blinkers off and see them for what they are. Think outside the box for once and remember that Prog is not stagnant. Saga were the first to do what Asia, It Bites, Marillion, and many others did much later. It seems obvious to me that given the voting in this survey, there is a general feeling that to move them to Prog Related was the wrong decision. We are over categorising and the spirit of Prog is suffering...let's keep it simple and have a General Prog category and do away with the Prog Related category...why are we recognising near misses anyway?...that's surely not what we are here to do. |
Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: July 11 2006 at 16:46
^Saga in the right context
Well put, BigBrownBear.
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Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: July 11 2006 at 16:57
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I voted progrock. Now that I've discovered so many 'real' prog bands I should have classified them under prog related maybe, but in the eighties when I started to discover prog, there wasn't so much prog rock to discover for the average prog fan in the days without Internet and almost unknown prog magazines, and Saga was one of those bands which drew my attention as a representative of prog music. I'm surprised how unpopular they've become through the years |
. Not many people discuss them on PA.Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 12 2006 at 07:01
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: terramystic
Date Posted: July 14 2006 at 07:06
| a lot of Saga's albums are neo prog --> prog rock |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: July 14 2006 at 07:52
 It's one of their best albums, with some really impressive grooves.Coming back to the poll, Saga had many identities during their long career, and I am not sure if they are prog or not. Synth-pop would be a more appropriate term to qualify their music. They began as a "symph" prog band with three landmark albums, then included some electronic drumming in their music and the sound of eighties' pop, then make the bass sound more present giving them a hard-rock sound in the nineties up till now.
I am a huge fan of their early works up to 'The security of illusion'. I am not very fond of their last albums, although 'Trust' is not that bad (but why these odd voices by the keyboardist ?). Some people find disappointing the second Sadler's solo album (which features drummer exrtraordinaire Chris Frazier who played on Vai's acclamed 'Passion and warfare') but I find it to be the best work released by a Saga-related artist.
If you want to discover the prog side of Saga, check the "phase one" and "generation 13" albums.
However, nevermind the label you can stick to Saga's music, they play good music and that's what matters. ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: July 14 2006 at 08:03
yes, it's weird to see that a band wit a career that spanned so many years under the label of "prog-rock" has lost its aura among progsters, but it's probably due to the "pop" side of this band.
They may not be popular in America, but they are very popular in Germany, the label on which they release their albums being SPV, and they tour almost exclusively in Germany. ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: BilboBaggins
Date Posted: July 16 2006 at 21:18
------------- Thoughtfullness |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 17 2006 at 03:55
Please , BB.
Ok , I do not know about the poll only bit. Not calling you a cheat (been discussing with you in the last months enough not to do such a thing withouit solid proof) , but the fact is that there are weird things happened with this poll.
it is just so troubling that the first 12 votes were positive (pro-prog) and no-one actually argumented for them, before I got there and started the first negative vote (prog related), and since I did, the voting has been 9 - 15.
As for being born, back at the time of Saga's early album, I saw them live around seven times in the late 70's/early 80's in their hometown (which was also mine at the time). Believe me, these guys "popped" around . I will NOT lose sleep if they are into Art Rock, and although I have notheard any of their later albums (except for the odd track here and there , but they still have that typical saga sound), but I truly believe they should not be really counted as completely prog.
BTW, I am no Saga hater, would anybody see a band seven times and owned their first four albums if he was not a fan.
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 17 2006 at 04:42
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^ do you know that the poll started without the option to write posts - it was voting only - and then later on it was modified to allow posts?
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 17 2006 at 04:49
No I did not
 and and I acknowledge it in the first sentence of my previous post : I did not know of the Poll Only bit. (which meant no answers allowed, >>>> this is a relatively rarely used option, which should not be open to everybody, but only for admins) Still from 12 - 0 to 23 - 15 after it was opened to answers is bizarre............ ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: BilboBaggins
Date Posted: July 17 2006 at 08:52
Sean, I accept your explanation (although I did try to tell you it was poll only in my previous post!) and don't worry!...smiles I was a little harsh on you anyway and apologise for that, it was 3:00 am in the morning so wasn't on top form...grin
There are enough prog albums in their repetoire for them to be considered Art Rock, which is where they were before some single minded committee had them removed because they didn't sound like Genesis, ELP, King Crimson...etc! (sorry if I'm wrong on this because I actually don't know how these categorisations are dealt with) Check out all the higher rated albums in their discography for these 'Prog' albums.
BTW...before anyone says it...I'm not biased as I'm not a Saga fan, however this discussion has been a refreshingly good one as I have revisited their albums and a new apreciation for their work has emerged in my mind!...smiles
Come on, why don't some of you go and listen to them again and this time be more vigilant in your listening of them. Some of you could be bigger people if you'd just come out and accept that maybe you have been a little harsh on this hard working band that have stayed together where others have failed, and have stayed true to prog whilst trying to entertain at the same time, thus maintaining a commercial foothold in order to survive as long as they have done!
------------- Thoughtfullness |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: July 20 2006 at 09:32
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Saga are definitely Prog-metal related - the music on their first two albums is almost entirely riff-driven, which is a characteristic of Prog metal, but NOT of Prog Rock.
The keyboards seem decorative rather than contrapuntal - the comparisons with Marillion are erroneous for that reason. They experiment within a naroow Rock formula - and are fully deserving of Prog-Related, but not Neo-Prog, as their music has nothing in common with Neo-Prog and everything in common with stadium rock bands like Styx, REO Speedwagon, Journey and Foreigner. But you can hear where Queensryche evolved from, and hence Dream Theater - so the Prog metal link is strong. If there's any actual evidence rather than bald statements (as we've seen so far) about how Saga "changed Prog forever" or any other aspects of real progginess in their music, then I'm as open as ever to consideration - but I simply don't hear any. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: BilboBaggins
Date Posted: July 20 2006 at 14:33
Look my friend, I think I had better leave this alone as we are just going around in circles. I would say of the above selection that there is a clear divide between the mainstream rock bands you have mentioned (although Styx have had their Prog albums) and what Saga do on some albums. It's funny but the poll suggests a clear majority of people have come down in favour of them being Prog, most of the radio stations on PRRN play Saga as Prog...and why?..because they have always been considered Prog! You know i'm in the UK and the Progheads in my community definitely saw what they were doing was blending the complexities of Prog with a more mainstream Pop Rock rhythm sometimes. This should have made them globally commercial but because their music still wasn't mainstream, they were not commercially successful outside of Germany. In a last ditch attempt to see if you see what I see, try listening to 'The Chapters' in order! Then if by any chance you like them, go back to the first albums and try again. You mentioned Prog Metal...great because I'd rather they were in there rather than in Prog Related! At least Prog Metal is a real sub genre of Prog Rock. Having given them further consideration though I actually think Neo Progressive is the best category for them. In my humble opinion they were doing what Marillion did 4 or 5 years before and more consistantly...hows that for a 'Humble Stance'? ------------- Thoughtfullness |
Posted By: Flip_Stone
Date Posted: July 20 2006 at 17:11
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If Saga isn't progressive, then nobody is...
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: July 20 2006 at 17:15
I must get a listen to Nobody! 
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: July 20 2006 at 17:32
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Anyone who thinks Saga is Prog is widening the term way too much. It
does explain why there is such tolerance for bands that write average
Pop/rock tunes that would be indistinguishable from anything on the
radio, but the add some instrumental flash to it. Prog is not about
taking ordinary music and adding a few elements of a non-standard
sound, it's about an entire attitude of wanting to move away from and
improve on regular Rock (in the wide sense). So, you can't really - as
some have argued before on Saga - see a step back as a progression of Prog. It makes no sense whatsoever. Back when I was getting into Prog in the mid-eighties, no one I knew considered Saga Prog, and the only kids in my school who liked them much were Metal and Rock fans. I could be kind and call them Prog Lite, maybe. But when you have that kind of short, repetitive, non-modulating cadence-bound melody as your stock-in-trade, you're just not Prog, and obviously not trying to be, either. -------------  
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: July 21 2006 at 05:51
You don't even have to go into the "technical" details - just listening to the standard intro/verse/chorus forms and preponderance of riffs is enough to do the classification. Prog Rock transcends verse/chorus song form, and rarely uses riffs, as it is intrinsically chord progression based. I suppose that will get me into trouble with the Prog metal fans... again
Maybe we could list Prog albums from 1976-1980 and make the comparisons that way - as that would put Saga into a better context. Let's pick out some competition at random from that era, as these are the bands and albums that we must necessarily compare Saga to: Barclay James Harvest: Octoberon, Gone To Earth, XII Holgar Czukay: Movies Genesis: A Trick of The Tail, Wind and Wuthering, And Then There Were Three, Duke Gong: Gazeuse, Shamal, Mother Gong's Fairy Tales Here & Now: Give & Take, What You See is What You Are Steve Hackett: Please Don't Touch, Spectral Mornings, Defector Hawkwind: Astounding Sounds, Roadhawks, Quark Strangeness and Charm, Masters of the Universe, P.X.R.5, Levitation Steve Hillage: L, Motivation Radio, Green King Crimson: The Young Person's Guide to..., Discipline Pink Floyd: Wish You Were Here, Animals, The Wall Klaus Schultze: Moondawn, Mirage, Body Love, X, Dune, Dig It Twelfth Night: Live at the Target, First and Second Tape Albums Still think Saga are Prog? ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: July 21 2006 at 05:58
The only "circle" here is the traditional "yes it is", "no it isn't" of debate, which is what a discussion forum is for. So far, the "yes it is" side have only managed bald statements of opinion unbacked by any facts - indeed, some claims are so outlandish as to give the game away entirely to the "no it isn't" side: For example, there are no similarities whatsoever between Saga's early music and Marillion's - Marillion were almost entirely contrpuntal, while Saga were almost entirely riff-based (as the obvious starting point!). And I don't see Prog Metal as a "real" sub-genre of Prog Rock, as it subscribes more to repetitious riffs than chord progressions and polyphony, as well as sticking more closely to standard song form. Prog Metal is different to Prog Rock, although it draws inspiration from it - it is far more a subgenre of Metal than of Prog Rock. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Bob Greece
Date Posted: July 21 2006 at 06:04
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http://www.dprp.net/proghistory/index.php?i=1995_02 - http://www.dprp.net/proghistory/index.php?i=1995_02 ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10"> 
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: July 21 2006 at 06:29
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^From the link: "catchy, chorus oriented songs". And that's from a raving fanboy. Case closed. -------------
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Posted By: Bob Greece
Date Posted: July 21 2006 at 06:35
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http://www.last.fm/music/Saga/+tags - http://www.last.fm/music/Saga/+tags
See how huge the "Progressive Rock" tag is? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10">
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Posted By: Bob Greece
Date Posted: July 21 2006 at 06:36
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saga_%28band%29 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saga_%28band%29
"Saga is a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock - Progressive rock quintet" ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10">
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Posted By: Bob Greece
Date Posted: July 21 2006 at 06:38
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http://www.gepr.net/safram.html - http://www.gepr.net/safram.html
"Saga was/is possibly the first http://www.gepr.net/genre2.html#NEOPROG - neo-prog band"
Seriously, I've never heard Saga in my life and don't know if they're prog or not. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10">
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: July 21 2006 at 11:53
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With respect, Bob, I would hardly consider either Wikipedia or Last FM to be authoritative sources!
Let's examine the GEPR article: "Canadian band who got off to a great start, and have tailed off quite a bit recently. Saga, Images at Twilight, Silent Knight and Worlds Apart are all classics combining multiple keyboards and great lead guitar work. Later albums are more pop based or straight rock and often cliched. Wildest Dreams is especially cliched. Security of Illusion reunites the orignal lineup, but the results are still in the AOR vein. Steven Negus does some *excellent* drumming on this album, BTW. Saga was/is possibly the first neo-prog band. Cert’s Question: How, exactly? It doesn't sound like any Neo Prog I've ever heard. Their music has two distinct faces - a progressive sound derivative of Yes and perhaps a little Genesis, Cert’s Question: Really? In what way? I’ve never heard any Yes or Genesis music that is so blatantly riff-based. and a fairly unique pop sound which seems to be their own. The early albums balance these two sides nicely, offering songs that are both accessible and interesting. (…) The band's debut may be classified as the first neo-prog album. Cert’s Question: How, exactly? It doesn't sound like any Neo Prog I've ever heard. Marred by two disco-ish songs, still, there's some fine German-styled synth work here though Cert’s Question: Can someone enlighten me on what “German-styled synth work sounds like, and its relevance to Neo-Prog?.. The track "Ice Nice" may be one of the band's best songs ever. Michael Sadler's faux-Anglo voice may get on some people's nerves. Silent Knight is probably the best, opening with the memorable "Don't Be Late". Their albums are solidly in the neo-prog mould, Cert’s Question: How, exactly? It doesn't sound like any Neo Prog I've ever heard... I hate bald statements with no supporting evidence, especially repeated ones… but the playing and writing are of high quality Clearly Mike neither likes nor listens to Neo-Prog to make a statement like that!. -- Mike Ohman" ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Barla
Date Posted: July 21 2006 at 11:56
| For what I've heard of them, I think they're prog. |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: July 21 2006 at 15:04
You could say the same about Genesis, Yes, ELP, Banco... ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: July 24 2006 at 12:42
| I've only heard one live Saga album. It is somewhat prog, but it is live, so I don't know how their overall sound is. |
Posted By: progrules
Date Posted: November 14 2007 at 04:28
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Early Saga was quite prog I think. But it must be said, that has faded over the years.
Some time ago progarchives put this band in the categorie "Art rock" (nowadays crossover). That's a possibility, isn't it ? I agree more with that than prog related.
By the way I voted prog rock.
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 14 2007 at 06:56
I agree 100% with this. I think that Saga are a perfect candidate to be moved to the renamed Crossover subgenre. ------------- 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 14 2007 at 12:11
ahhhh.. Dean and I, along with the admin team, will take a look at this... thanks guys.. ..... and gals 
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: BilboBaggins
Date Posted: November 14 2007 at 14:22
Wow, it's a long time since this poll was started by myself...smiles I think Saga have always been on and off with the use of prog elements, even within individual albums, but I have to say that if you are truly subjective, you will see that it is way more on than off. by contrast, I could level the same argument against several other 'prog' bands, that are not labelled 'Prog Related'. I am pleased that throughout this poll, people were leaning more towards 'prog' than 'prog related' by some margin, and I also feel that prior to the new categories, they were far more suited to 'Art Rock' than the 'Prog Related' category. I still feel that, even within the more 'pop' orientated material, there are strong prog elements, and the mistake most people make, is to allow the overall sound and feel, to cloud the more intricate work inherent in most of what Saga produce. I think 'Crossover' is far more apt than any other currently available category, so I for one would be extremely pleased to see them out of the 'Prog Related' category, out of respect for their very unique contribution to Prog. For those of you who feel the proggier (excuse my invention of this adjetive'...smiles)side is limited to the earlier period of Saga's career, try listening to 'Trust', especially the last few tracks, and listen in particular to the counterpoint contained in the last track, 'On The Other Side' Many thanks to all of those contributed to this poll...each and everyone of you!...smiles ------------- Thoughtfullness |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 04:14
| I must confess I only heard one full album of Saga, which is meant to be their most 'prog' album 'Generation 13'. I think it's pretty poor stuff, personally; I've tried to get into it many, many times but it's a messy affair, IMHO. But could it be called prog? No question about that, I just don't like it very much is all. Have to say though that the 80s stuff I heard was more AOR. |
Posted By: Komodo dragon
Date Posted: November 21 2007 at 19:41
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yesssssss they have tree or more albums that is pure prog so i said yesss they are prog
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Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: December 20 2007 at 10:18
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True, Saga dabbled in pop in their mid career, but listen to the first four albums, then Generation 13 and every album since Full Circle (including the excellent House of Cards, Network, Trust and 10,000 Days)and tell me they're not prog ! Watch for that incredible keyboard-guitar interplay, the fact that Sadler sings, plays keyboards and bass, Jim Crichton plays bass & keyboards, Gilmour plays keyboards and clarinet, the complex arrangments, a sound they can call their own, the obvious Camel and Gentle Giant influences in some places, and the Chapters... and what you have is a full-fledged prog band. I always thought that putting them in prog-related was an insult to their masterliness. ------------- "One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio |