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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21616 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Blind Guardian
    Posted: July 09 2006 at 17:36
Why should the reviews be affected? It's like moving a band from Symphonic Prog to Art Rock.Smile
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Points: 6699 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2006 at 17:33
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ fair enough.LOL But from a technical standpoint it doesn't make much difference how many new categories you introduce ... you have to go through the list of PM bands and move them.

BTW: I'm volunteering to do that ... all M@x would have to do is create the new categories.
 
When you move a band, do the reviews move as well?  I would hate for my Into Eterniy, Opeth, Death, and Vintersorg reveiws to be lost forever. LOL

"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls."
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21616 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2006 at 17:33
^ fair enough.LOL But from a technical standpoint it doesn't make much difference how many new categories you introduce ... you have to go through the list of PM bands and move them.

BTW: I'm volunteering to do that ... all M@x would have to do is create the new categories.
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Points: 6699 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2006 at 17:28
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by AtLossForWords AtLossForWords wrote:

 
I agree with the categorization, but I think two genres would give enough clues to a listener.  Progressive Metal and Extreme Progressive would be sufficient classicication for now on the site.


Why not do further splits while you're at it? With only those two genres people would still get these associations:

  • You like Riverside -> maybe you'd like Tool
  • You like Anathema -> maybe you'd like Ron Jarzombek
  • You like Pain of Salvation -> maybe you'd like Rhapsody
  • You like Cult of Luna -> maybe you'd like Dream Theater
    LOL

I just think that's all we can really hope for right now.  I'd like more genres too, but it just doesn't seem like it can be done right now.

I just think by making two categories for extreme progressive metal an progressive metal, we will relieve the biggest misleading factor that
 
  • You like Death-> maybe you'd like O.S.I.
  • You like Dillinger Escape Plan-> maybe you'd like Pain of Salvation
  • You like Borknagar-> maybe you'd like MagellanLOL

"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls."
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Points: 43 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2006 at 12:55
Yes, totally, if not three times! Can't wait 'til WHILE HEAVEN WEPT get added, because they covered JANELOL.
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21616 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2006 at 09:59
^ I also don't know why people think that ANATO is their most progressive album ... Nightfall is twice as prog.Wink 
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Points: 43 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2006 at 09:48
Quote: There simply isn't any way to understand the addition of Blind Guardian without having listened in detail to Nightfall and NatO.
Dude, that's what I did, but still I can't understand their addition here. If it's so easy to be added to the PA, than nearly every band would fit in, that's a fact!
BTW: ANATO is added? Okay, why not Powerslave?Confused
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21616 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2006 at 07:09
Originally posted by ivansfr0st ivansfr0st wrote:

And if you like Kate Bush, you will like Emperor tbh.

 -- Ivan


Sure, this is also a big problem ... caused by the database design. Proto-Prog and Prog-Related should be attributes of albums, not genres. So Kate Bush would be in Art Rock AND her albums would be marked "prog-related", and Emperor would be in Extreme Prog Metal and their albums would be marked "prog-related".

A bit like it is done on my website.Wink
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Points: 5308 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2006 at 07:01

And if you like Kate Bush, you will like Emperor tbh.

 -- Ivan
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21616 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2006 at 06:54
Originally posted by AtLossForWords AtLossForWords wrote:

 
I agree with the categorization, but I think two genres would give enough clues to a listener.  Progressive Metal and Extreme Progressive would be sufficient classicication for now on the site.


Why not do further splits while you're at it? With only those two genres people would still get these associations:

  • You like Riverside -> maybe you'd like Tool
  • You like Anathema -> maybe you'd like Ron Jarzombek
  • You like Pain of Salvation -> maybe you'd like Rhapsody
  • You like Cult of Luna -> maybe you'd like Dream Theater

LOL
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21616 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2006 at 06:48
^ if a band recorded one progressive album they MUST be included ... the archives intend to be a complete archive of prog, and the common "unit" of prog is albums. There is virtually no prog band/artist which remained totally consistent, most of them changed their style from album to album. That's why discussing the progressiveness of an artist is so difficult. I'm not saying that moving the discussion from the band level to the album level would solve all problems ... but it would make much more sense.

Most importantly: People who don't really know the particular album but only other albums of the band would be forced to listen to the album in order to participate. There simply isn't any way to understand the addition of Blind Guardian without having listened in detail to Nightfall and NatO.Smile
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Points: 9226 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2006 at 20:35
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Blind Guardian recorded at least one progressive album (depending on whom you ask it's either Nightfall or NatO), and that's why they will be included. Not because of single songs, or because of any particular element they use in their music. If you don't agree about that ... I don't mind at all!


that's the problem in PA IMO
if a band has one prog album and the rest is not prog, it's included
controversial...
    
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Points: 21616 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2006 at 07:09
^ maybe it's a little bit unfair to say that they're not interested ... they haven't said so. But it surely isn't one of their highest priorities ... Wink
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Philéas View Drop Down
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Points: 6419 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2006 at 06:29
It's a shame, really, that the owners don't seem to be interested. But maybe it's because the site after all is decribed as "Prog Rock Ultimate Discography". Perhaps a sister site is needed, to make a Prog Metal Ultimate Discography...
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21616 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2006 at 02:49
Philéas: Have a look at this page: http://www.ratingfreak.com/home/progarchives/prog_metal_subgenres.xhtml

about half a year ago we split the prog metal genre ... unfortunately the PA site owners don't seem to be interested in implementing it.
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Points: 6699 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2006 at 00:19
Originally posted by Philéas Philéas wrote:

Originally posted by AtLossForWords AtLossForWords wrote:

 Can I reccomend you the ratingfreak.com website?  Under the "ProgArchives" section you will see the Prog Metal Potential Additions chart and just a click away is the genre categorization of Prog Metal.

It was after looking at it that I got these thoughts. Smile

So does anyone else agree?

 
I agree with the categorization, but I think two genres would give enough clues to a listener.  Progressive Metal and Extreme Progressive would be sufficient classicication for now on the site.

"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls."
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Philéas View Drop Down
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Points: 6419 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2006 at 22:51
Originally posted by AtLossForWords AtLossForWords wrote:

 Can I reccomend you the ratingfreak.com website?  Under the "ProgArchives" section you will see the Prog Metal Potential Additions chart and just a click away is the genre categorization of Prog Metal.

It was after looking at it that I got these thoughts. Smile

So does anyone else agree?
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Points: 6699 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2006 at 20:23
Originally posted by Philéas Philéas wrote:

Not to be taken as critisim towards the addition or the Prog Metal team, these are my thoughts after reading this topic and the Prog Metal chart:

Since there are so many metal bands being added to the Prog Metal genre that doesn't always fit perfectly with that description, I think it would be a good idea to split up Prog Metal into several styles, like Prog Rock is split into Symphonic, Art Rock, Prog Folk, Neo Prog etc.  I think it would reduce the controversy surrounding some additions, and make it easier for people to accept the existance of Prog Metal. For example, Opeth, Dream Theater and Between the Buried and Me are all very different bands, and with such a diversity of styles labeled as one, there's no wonder that people start to turn against Prog Metal. Labeling multiple sub genres as one and thereby increasing the diversity within the sub genre so much so that sub sub genres are needed makes Prog Metal look very weak, and it's value as a valid sub genre very questionable.

Prog Metal surely started as a sub genre to Prog Rock, but as far as I'm concerned it has evolved so much since that it has grown into a genre of its own, with a host of sub genres such as Progressive Power Metal, Symphonic Prog Metal, Progressive Death Metal etc. I see prog metal as a parallel genre to Prog Rock rather than a sub genre, which is what this site lists it as. I think it might be time to separate the two, to sort of kick Prog Metal out of the nest, and acknowledge it as a valid genre.
 
Can I reccomend you the ratingfreak.com website?  Under the "ProgArchives" section you will see the Prog Metal Potential Additions chart and just a click away is the genre categorization of Prog Metal.

"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls."
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Bryan View Drop Down
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Points: 3013 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2006 at 19:37
Originally posted by Philéas Philéas wrote:

Not to be taken as critisim towards the addition or the Prog Metal team, these are my thoughts after reading this topic and the Prog Metal chart:

Since there are so many metal bands being added to the Prog Metal genre that doesn't always fit perfectly with that description, I think it would be a good idea to split up Prog Metal into several styles, like Prog Rock is split into Symphonic, Art Rock, Prog Folk, Neo Prog etc.  I think it would reduce the controversy surrounding some additions, and make it easier for people to accept the existance of Prog Metal. For example, Opeth, Dream Theater and Between the Buried and Me are all very different bands, and with such a diversity of styles labeled as one, there's no wonder that people start to turn against Prog Metal. Labeling multiple sub genres as one and thereby increasing the diversity within the sub genre so much so that sub sub genres are needed makes Prog Metal look very weak, and it's value as a valid sub genre very questionable.

Prog Metal surely started as a sub genre to Prog Rock, but as far as I'm concerned it has evolved so much since that it has grown into a genre of its own, with a host of sub genres such as Progressive Power Metal, Symphonic Prog Metal, Progressive Death Metal etc. I see prog metal as a parallel genre to Prog Rock rather than a sub genre, which is what this site lists it as. I think it might be time to separate the two, to sort of kick Prog Metal out of the nest, and acknowledge it as a valid genre.


Mike has been wanting to do this for ages, the site owners don't seem to be going for it though.
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Philéas View Drop Down
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Points: 6419 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2006 at 18:36
It's nice to see someone agree with me! Smile I was afraid that I'd get a lot of bash for posting that. LOL Looks like I don't need to worry too much though. Smile
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