PA the only site to recognize J-R Fusion as Prog?

verslibre wrote: Starshiper wrote: ...1978 Rypdal/Vitous/DeJohnette track "Seasons," where Rypdal brilliantly deploys a guitar synthesiser. Another winner. Beautiful music, the compulsion to convince others its worthwhile notwithstanding.

Since I purchased the Rypdal/Vitous/DeJohnette self-titled album as soon as it hit the shelves, "Seasons" has actually been my favourite track off that LP. It's indeed an excellent example of ECM-style experimental floatin' fusion from 1978.

Starshiper wrote: ...1978 Rypdal/Vitous/DeJohnette track "Seasons," where Rypdal brilliantly deploys a guitar synthesiser.

Another winner. Beautiful music, the compulsion to convince others its worthwhile notwithstanding.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: We're all experts in knowing what we think we like

Saperlipopette! wrote: ^Yes. Everyone else should listen to me! That's real humility:). But really; I talk about it a lot? As in many more times than in the reply to Moshkito's "expert-difficulties"?

Saperlipopette! wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ You sure talk a lot about humility  Haha do I? I guess I don't strike anyone here as particularly humble or modest. I can be. Not so much in this context, and probably less the older I get. But have I ever talked about it prior to this?

Starshiper wrote: I agree that Terje Rypdal's stuff in general is not too dissimilar from Miles' fusion from the early seventies. That kind of jazz fusion, however, lacks the organic structure that jazz-rock typically has when it comes to prog. Rypdal's guitar work avoids acquiring shape and floating away without the embodied solo or necessary structure for being jazz-rock as part of prog, even in his most "proggy" moments

Rypdal's less structured fusion, like Miles himself, Mwandishi and many more - is acknowledged by PA, myself and many of us - as a natural part of Jazz Rock Fusion. As Miles more or less created what we're discussing, he also made the some of the rules for what this music is - and can be. Not you. You're free to think of it, and decide for yourself in whatever way you do. Just don't expect me to agree with you. The sound of Jazz Rock Fusion in 1969-1972 was generally more open and less structured than most of what came after. That's my favorite approach, and a valid approach. There's plenty of seemingly "shapeless, floating music" found on Prog Archives that qualifies as related to prog enough for inclusion.

^ You sure talk a lot about humility 

^That's some sort of ambient fusion for sure. Close in spirit to Rypdal's own "Odessey", but gentler. Nowhere near something I would think of as pure jazz.

If I were to compare early Terje Rypdal with other artists, they would be found among his contemporaries. Like Weather Report's two first releases, all of the Mwandishi-related albums, and well despite my previous comments John McLaughlin/MU... + at his proggiest: 73-74-era King Crimson (also some of the other ECM-fusion albums)

Finally Rypdal's approach, like everyone just listed, is in depth to Electric Miles. Rypdal's fusion of styles in the early to mid-1970's fit nicely within a similar musical landscape as the others I just mentioned. Miles influence on Jazz Rock Fusion is everywhere. It still is. As he practially changed the direction of jazz, and gave birth to this sort of musical fusion, it's not really all that relevant whether someone do not include him in their understanding of Jazz Rock/fusion (I know for many Miles doesn't "rock enough" - or they find his electric era too abstract etc...). Terje's first track on his ECM debut titled Keep It Like That - Tight is a direct quote heard whispered by Davis to the band seven and a half minutes into "Bitches Brew"'s title track.

Like those I just compared him with, jazz is always there in spirit. But with the exception of KC, Rypdal's own output is arguably less pure jazz than the rest of them.

Apart from a couple of tracks on his charmingly messy pre-ECM debut "Bleak House", his contributions to something resembling "pure jazz" is always as a guest/sideman.

verslibre wrote: Starshiper wrote: There are a number of "proggy" jazz fusion albums in the ECM catalog; for instance, Solstice by Ralph Towner (in PA as well) perhaps sounds more "proggy" in the typical sense of the term than any record by Terje Rypdal, but hey, you know what? "Proggy" doesn't mean prog... Ralph Towner is a beast. Ana comes 22 years after Solstice and may well be his finest hour.

I have a fondness for Ralph Towner's "Blue Sun" album, on which he performs all the instruments. I also thoroughly appreciate his work with his home band, Oregon. The Oregon tracks that seem the most "proggy" to me are my favourites. But it's definitely not prog.