PA the only site to recognize J-R Fusion as Prog?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=133600
Printed Date: December 02 2024 at 15:54
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Topic: PA the only site to recognize J-R Fusion as Prog?
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Subject: PA the only site to recognize J-R Fusion as Prog?
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 05:54
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yarstruly (Scott Rich)'s recent review of 100 great prog albums has led me to wonder if ProgArchives is the only site to harbor Jazz-Rock Fusion under its umbrella. Do you consider J-R Fusion as a form/expression of Prog? Do you resent J-R Fuse taking up so much space on ProgArchives--wish it were relegated to M™x's other music website, JazzMusicArchives? Sincerely, Drew
------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Replies:
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 06:18
Yes, I do. It seems to me that Jazz-Rock is more similar to Symphonic Prog than it is different, especially when considered from the perspective of the broad variety of music in general. ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
BrufordFreak wrote:Posted By: yam yam
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 06:27
Some of you might find Andy's take on the subject interesting though.
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Posted By: VianaProghead
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 06:29
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Yes, me too. The progressivity of that style of music put it in the same boat of prog in general.
------------- "PROG IS MY FERRARI". Jem Godfrey (Frost*) |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 06:42
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Do you consider J-R Fusion as a form/expression of Prog? yes Do you resent J-R Fuse taking up so much space on ProgArchives--wish it were relegated to M™x's other music website, JazzMusicArchives? no If I remember right, JRF is a subgenre on JMA.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 06:42
Yes and no. Some Jazz-Fusion is prog, some is not. Depends! 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 06:43
And for the record, PA is not the only website where JRF can be listed as prog. 
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 07:09
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 07:13
Hi, Honestly, I do. In general, all forms of music fall into the "progressive" area of things just by how they all mix and match bits and pieces, and J-R is no different than anything else. It being "recognized" at PA, is probably good, if not better than a lot of places that tend to be more discriminatory and selective in their choices, thus further placing "progressive" into a downward spiral that hurts the whole thing ... and it wasn't like in the late 60's and early 70's the well known "progressive" folks that helped name it, were also inspired by other forms of music and used many details from it ... so in essence, nothing has changed and the discussion ends up being a bit ... on the strange side ... and not exactly about music per se, which has evolved because of all its variations and mixes for a long time ... history tells us a lot if we look at it some ... not ignore it. J-R is not peculiar or grossly different to warrant its own design and definition ... thus a place like PA is helpful to it. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 07:23
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No. However, a vast number of Jazz Rock and Jazz Fusion records are not 100% "pure" and they fearture significant elements of the progressive rock genre. It works the other way around too. There are countless prog records with heavy Jazz Rock/Fusion leanings. Some bands are pretty tricky to label in that regard. Take SBB as an example. Or Modry Efekt. ------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 07:25
| Sure fusion can be classified as prog. Now how about all the other PA subgenres. Is avant-garde, math rock, Zeuhl, Krautrock, experimental, electronic, psychedelic, tech metal, and raga rock Prog? |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 07:35
yes  Gibraltar, Prog Lands and ProgGnosis (all defunct sites) listed or reviewed plenty of JR/F bands All cited Mahavishnu, 11th House or RTForever as "prog", but not stuff like Weather Report. and Mwandishi. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 08:11
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^ At AP the prog status is at release level. Not too many votes in the Fusion subgenre, but still a general picture emerges. Here's the Fusion releases tagged as prog: https://awesomeprog.com/chart?prog=prog&types=lp%2Cep&jazzgenre=fusion&genre=jazz" rel="nofollow - https://awesomeprog.com/chart?prog=prog&types=lp%2Cep&jazzgenre=fusion&genre=jazz And here's the Fusion releases tagged as non-prog: https://awesomeprog.com/chart?prog=non&types=lp%2Cep&jazzgenre=fusion&genre=jazz" rel="nofollow - https://awesomeprog.com/chart?prog=non&types=lp%2Cep&jazzgenre=fusion&genre=jazz |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 08:45
Spot on. PA's jazz fusion category isn't all encompassing. It only covers jazz that is fused with PROGRESSIVE ROCK which is why it's here Lots of jazz fusion is jazz mixed with African music, funk or other non-prog genres but not prog Perhaps it's not prog prog but a very close prog related relative but basically close enough to be considered a sibling at least :) AS(function(){function c(){var b=a.contentDocument||a.contentWindow.document;if(b){var d=b.createElement('script');d.innerHTML="window.__CF$cv$params={r:'8c49dd46ff5c9698',t:'MTcyNjU4NDE2Mi4wMDAwMDA='};var a=document.createElement('script');a.nonce='';a.src='/cdn-cgi/challenge-platform/scripts/jsd/main.js';document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(a);";b.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(d)}}if(document.body){var a=document.createElement('iframe');a.height=1;a.width=1;a.style.position='absolute';a.style.top=0;a.style.left=0;a.style.border='none';a.style.visibility='hidden';document.body.appendChild(a);if('loading'!==document.readyState)c();else if(window.addEventListener)document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded',c);else{var e=document.onreadystatechange||function(){};document.onreadystatechange=function(b){e(b);'loading'!==document.readyState&&(document.onreadystatechange=e,c())}}}})();< style=": ; top: 0px; left: 0px; border: medium none; visibility: ;" width="1" height="1">
-------------  https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 09:01
NO
No, it's much better than a lot of other, poppy stuff.  ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 09:45
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1. I see a many albums/acts tagged as progressive rock (or Canterbury Scene which I consider Prog) and jazz-rock as well as jazz fusion at RateYourMusic. See: https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:all,jazz%2drock,progressive%2drock/" rel="nofollow - https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:all,jazz%2drock,progressive%2drock/ & https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:all,progressive%2drock,jazz%2dfusion/" rel="nofollow - https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:all,progressive%2drock,jazz%2dfusion/ I do prefer to the multi-genre/category labelling of albums like RYM does to how Prog Archives puts whole discographies under a category, but that's a limitation of this site (and would require a massive overhaul to change). 2. Not all Jazz-rock fusion is what I would call Prog or under the umbrella, but there is an awful that I do, and in fact I include a lot of fusion that is not in PA as appropriate for this site, including music that was shot down by the JRF team. 3. I absolutely don't think JRF takes up to much space, and there is a lot more I would add if it were up to me. I also won't advocate that all metal be relegated to M@x's metal music archives. The JRF category is way more important to me but I think both have their place as this site works. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 10:14
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I'd never considered Jazz Rock/Fusion to be Progressive Rock until I arrived at ProgArchives, but I'm glad it's included here. After all, where else could I listen to Blood, Sweat & Tears, Chicago, Santana and Steely Dan and still call it prog.
By the way, I also love the way PA categorises artists under one prog sub-genre for an entire discography. I wouldn't have it any other way, which is why I never use RYM to look up artists and albums.
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Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 10:20
I had a feeling this was the case. I respect your breadth of experience enough, Mike, to accept your input as truth. The odd thing about the above fact, then, is that most prog lovers will include Mahavishnu Orchestra and maybe even Return to Forever (and Al Di Meola) as prog artists! ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 10:23
Great response, Pedro! I agree whole-heartedly and couldn't have said it better.  ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 10:26
or KBB or Kenso or Outer Limits or Delorians or Koenji Hyakkei or Bondage Fruit. ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 10:38
I can see and appreciate the value of having an album-by-album categorization system. My favorite case in point: Miles Davis. (Yeah that's right, Freak: beat it to death!) ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 10:44
Yes / No ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: poseído del alba
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 10:52
| I think of it as prog friendly. However, as progressive music inherently tends to blend different genres, I think it's a plus to include jr fusion and others "in the outer realms of prog", as somebody said |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 11:50
Oh God yes!! King Crimson is a crossover of J-R Fusion and Symphonic, and JRF has influenced all of the main symphonic acts including Yes, ELP, Genesis etc. I love the virtuosity that many J-R Fusion players including John McLaughlin (aka "God"), the late/great John Goodsall, Chick Corea etc. If anything, I'd wish for more generous interaction between JRF and other prog categories. Here, watch his playing, ye mighty, and despair!! I mean, Steve Howe is fast, but this guy is sick!! ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 12:07
It's kind of a spectrum. When does red stop being red and become another color? There's a transition through various wavelengths. Same goes with music. Mahavishnus are clearly prog rock mixed with jazz. Sun Ra is jazz fusion but not with prog or even rock which is why he's not here. Some of the artists on PA though are questionable. Like Steely Dan for example. That's jazz rock for sure but not really prog rock I(function(){function c(){var b=a.contentDocument||a.contentWindow.document;if(b){var d=b.createElement('script');d.innerHTML="window.__CF$cv$params={r:'8c4b06fc5f4e24e8',t:'MTcyNjU5NjM1Ni4wMDAwMDA='};var a=document.createElement('script');a.nonce='';a.src='/cdn-cgi/challenge-platform/scripts/jsd/main.js';document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(a);";b.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(d)}}if(document.body){var a=document.createElement('iframe');a.height=1;a.width=1;a.style.position='absolute';a.style.top=0;a.style.left=0;a.style.border='none';a.style.visibility='hidden';document.body.appendChild(a);if('loading'!==document.readyState)c();else if(window.addEventListener)document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded',c);else{var e=document.onreadystatechange||function(){};document.onreadystatechange=function(b){e(b);'loading'!==document.readyState&&(document.onreadystatechange=e,c())}}}})();< style=": ; top: 0px; left: 0px; border: medium none; visibility: ;" width="1" height="1">
------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 12:50
Hi, Nice listing and enjoyable, although I wonder how Jeff Beck is considered "non-prog" when he was instrumental (in reality also!!!) in expanding the palate of pop music that eventually became known as progressive. I suppose that it is so, because today folks think this is all just another song, and it sounds/is strange and weird, and does not follow the generalities that are assigned to "prog" ... much. The strange side is how some music that took the plunge into a completely new area, which ended up giving "progressive" a lot of its definitions ... when one looks at the details, Jeff Beck ticks all of them and even adds some. It's a real puzzle how folks make these decisions ... really crazy ... especially when Jeff Beck was at the forefront of a lot of it, but he was less worried about what the music was, or was not, than he was about doing something neat ... and different ... which he excelled at. If I had to name a few musicians that needed to be listed at the top as part of the "progressive" history ... I would think that Jeff Beck fits really well in it. I kinda felt like he gave Steve Howe almost all of his ideas! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 13:07
IMHO, the ultimate expression of symphonic fusion belongs to Kenso, who are finally back with a new album! An Old Warrior Shook the Sun is out on 11/13. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 13:24
Yes, there's definitely quite a lot of overlap between Progressive Rock and Jazz-Rock / Jazz Fusion. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 13:42
| It is as much as progressive electronic, post-rock, krautrock or psychedelic that's for sure. Maybe even more so than any of those. Maybe fusion is little p prog (like the others) and not big P prog. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 13:54
Like I said, there is little data on many of these releases. I would certainly tag some of these Jeff Beck albums as at least Prog-Adjacent, and probably they are more Rock than Jazz anyway. All these releases are hard to describe in terms of genre, which is one of the reasons for the label "Fusion"
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 14:34
-Btw: I can't tell if you're trolling or not, except that you never do (troll). |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 14:41
 and that's just to mention a few.------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 14:46
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"PA the only site to recognize J-R Fusion as Prog?" What I believe to be the biggest and most influential music site in the world, RYM, consider Progressive Rock and Jazz-Rock / Jazz Fusion to be separate genres. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 15:22
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When I got into prog as a teen from 1980, without having much knowledge about genres (and not actually knowing what "prog" refers to), the connection between the prog bands I was getting into and some jazz/fusion that I got to know at the same time immediately struck me. I'd say I could hear that it's not quite the same thing, but many elements that I loved where there in both, and it was clear that they influences each other. I still see it like that, so it makes perfect sense to me to have JRF in here. The only issue, probably already mentioned by others, is that when an artist is included, all their albums are included, so suddenly "Kind of Blue" becomes prog!? But I don't mind much. And it's no different with the first two Talk Talk albums, much of Franco Battiato etc.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 15:36
Which is not very relevant, since at RYM (and AP) multiple genres can be assigned to a release. So while these genres may be separate, there are (many) releases which "implement" both of them.
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 16:11
It is very relevant, as even there's some overlap in labelling albums, definitely most of the albums are either tagged as Progressive Rock or Jazz-Rock / Jazz Fusion and NOT both genres. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 16:23
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^ there are tons of albums that overlap. In fact the Canterbury Scene is basically a genre that is both progressive rock and jazz fusion at the same time. Sure a few artists dropped out of that when Soft Machine went pure fusion and Hillage went more psychedelic prog but for the most part it's true. Same with Mahavishnus and other guitar driven jazz fusion bands. Very much as much prog as fusion. (function(){function c(){var b=a.contentDocument||a.contentWindow.document;if(b){var d=b.createElement('script');d.innerHTML="window.__CF$cv$params={r:'8c4c7c3efce55c1e',t:'MTcyNjYxMTY0NS4wMDAwMDA='};var a=document.createElement('script');a.nonce='';a.src='/cdn-cgi/challenge-platform/scripts/jsd/main.js';document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(a);";b.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(d)}}if(document.body){var a=document.createElement('iframe');a.height=1;a.width=1;a.style.position='absolute';a.style.top=0;a.style.left=0;a.style.border='none';a.style.visibility='hidden';document.body.appendChild(a);if('loading'!==document.readyState)c();else if(window.addEventListener)document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded',c);else{var e=document.onreadystatechange||function(){};document.onreadystatechange=function(b){e(b);'loading'!==document.readyState&&(document.onreadystatechange=e,c())}}}})();< style=": ; top: 0px; left: 0px; border: medium none; visibility: ;" width="1" height="1">
------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 17:29
Okay, "separate" genres wasn't the best word to use, it would be better to say "different" genres. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Starshiper
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 18:09
| It should be said that the adjective "progressive" was historically first used to tag music as applied to some eclectic jazz played in the underground clubs (in the 1960s Britain). Regarding the question and the opening post, it is undeniable that PA is definitely not the only prog-site that recognises JR/F genre as prog, while the things here really could be different literally from record to record and, of course, from personal opinion. For instance, I think that Mahavishnu Orchestra's Birds of Fire and Gong's Gazeuse! are prog, while Weather Report's self-titled debut and Miles Davis' Bitches Brew aren't prog for me. Or about vocal jazz-rock albums: Gong's Shamal is prog, while Steely Dan's Aja is not. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 18:29
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It is a progressive form of music that involves rock (in fact many jazz listeners don't consider fusion a form of jazz). As well, it's a style appreciated by many prog fans. So yeah, I'd have to say it's appropriate to include it under in the Prog spectrum. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 19:30
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Progressive—Yes Prog—Sometimes is not However, Jazz-Rock Fusion is as excellent as any other genre, and includes many talented bands/artists. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 23:07
-In what other way can you operate with multiple, sometimes neighbouring genres than to first seperate them from each other? RYM's multiple genres are just handy tools for extra precision. For those of us who prefer it that way. On RYM you will know that although both are considered Jazz Fusion, the former album is much more likely to be proggy than the latter: Nucleus We'll Talk About it Later: Jazz-Rock, Jazz Fusion, Progressive Rock, Canterbury Scene Sun Ra Strange Celestial Road: Avant-Garde Jazz, Jazz-Funk, Jazz Fusion, Free Jazz, Spiritual Jazz, Experimental, Big Band -While on Prog Archives, who does not operate with multiple genres, thousands of albums that has no relation to Progressive Rock whatsoever - are wrongly promoted as belonging to some kind of Prog Rock-subgenre. One might end up thinking that a Modal Jazz album released almost decade before this fusion of Jazz and Rock was even a thing - is infact one of the most treasured Jazz Rock/Fusion-albums of all time. Btw: its not that I think you disagree with all - if any of this. I'm mainly just following my own line of thought. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 18 2024 at 00:59
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A remark which might be useful: Your OP looks very fine to me, Drew, but the thread title seems to be rather strange when to begin analyze it from a philosophical / epistemological point of view.  ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 18 2024 at 01:01
Not that useful I'm afraid...
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 18 2024 at 01:15
Have a look at the list Logan posted earlier: https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:all,progressive%2drock,jazz%2dfusion/2/" rel="nofollow - https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:all,progressive%2drock,jazz%2dfusion/2/
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 18 2024 at 01:15
Well, anyway, it's also a question of how to understand the word "recognize" if to be quite precize, but I think that it would be better with a title like: "PA the only site to consider J-R Fusion as Prog?"
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 18 2024 at 01:20
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My criteria are easy: I like it - It's prog I don't like it - It's not ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 18 2024 at 01:50
That's clean talk. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: September 18 2024 at 03:53
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I'm glad it's recognized here, I started listening to Jazz in general thanks to PA's Top 100. |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: September 18 2024 at 10:20
(Did I force that color change upon you, Mike?!) ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: September 18 2024 at 10:23
That's okay. I didn't think three new threads--or two and a new poll--would have received the same attention and/or traction as this one has. Plus, the "conversations"/exchanges have be kind of fun, n'est-ce pas? ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: September 18 2024 at 10:25
Also a factor, David, in my naming of the thread was the limited number of characters the Title/Subject box would allow. I'm okay with what I finally settled upon, thank you. ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 18 2024 at 12:15
If you for instance look at top 100 Jazz-Rock / Jazz Fusion albums all-time on RYM, only 20 of these 100 albums are also tagged as Progressive Rock or one of what RYM consider to be Prog sub-genres: https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:jazz%2drock,jazz%2dfusion/ ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 18 2024 at 13:39
Opinions will be forever divided on whether these artists (or rather, their releases) are "more prog" or "more jazz fusion". On my website one can tag a release as "Prog Fusion", or "Prog-Adjacent Fusion", or "Non-Prog Fusion", or even "Prog Rock/Fusion", or "Prog Jazz/Rock". In the end it does not matter much, it's great music!
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 18 2024 at 13:53
To respond to this question specifically, I think it goes both ways: Some prog artists used Fusion as another form of musical expression, while some Fusion artists also branched out into prog. Even now, decades after Fusion was "invented", there are modern progressive bands like Haken which are incorporating it into their style.
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Posted By: AJ Junior
Date Posted: September 18 2024 at 18:45
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Having Jazz fusion on this site is a necessity and adds to its diversity in the loose sphere of prog. ------------- "Together We Stand, Divided We Fall" |
Posted By: ProggnosisDB
Date Posted: September 18 2024 at 19:24
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Amazing to hear that Proggnosis is defunct!! I cannot imagine where i have been putting in hours of work these last 25 years including these last weeks. As for classifying J-R Fusion we have a subgenre of Progressive Rock called.. hmm Jazz-Rock! Using Advance Search - - Under this sub-genre you will find Brian Auger, Chase, Fire Merchants, Il Baricentro and 256 more bands We also have a sub-genre of Fusion called Jazz-Fusion and there are 541 bands listed here That would include the 70's pioneers of RTF, Weather Report, Mahavishnu as well as modern artists like Aaron Comess. Endless Season, Gerald Gradwohl and so many more Needless to say - -Proggnosis is NOT DEFUNCT. Regards, DBSilver proggnosis.com |
Posted By: ProggnosisDB
Date Posted: September 18 2024 at 19:30
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Amazing to hear that Proggnosis is defunct!! I cannot imagine where i have been putting in hours of work these last 25 years including these last weeks.
As for classifying J-R Fusion we have a subgenre of Progressive Rock called.. hmm Jazz-Rock! Using Advance Search - - Under this sub-genre you will find Brian Auger, Chase, Fire Merchants, Il Baricentro and 256 more bands We also have a sub-genre of Fusion called Jazz-Fusion and there are 541 bands listed here That would include the 70's pioneers of RTF, Weather Report, Mahavishnu as well as modern artists like Aaron Comess. Endless Season, Gerald Gradwohl and so many more Needless to say - -Proggnosis is NOT DEFUNCT. Regards, DBSilver proggnosis.com |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 18 2024 at 19:42
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: September 18 2024 at 20:47
You're a smooth manipulator, you are! BTW i started the color thing to make it easy to differentiate my comments from that annoying code. As soon as i hook up my new computer it will probably stop (function(){function c(){var b=a.contentDocument||a.contentWindow.document;if(b){var d=b.createElement('script');d.innerHTML="window.__CF$cv$params={r:'8c563dbb0e6f983a',t:'MTcyNjcxMzk0Mi4wMDAwMDA='};var a=document.createElement('script');a.nonce='';a.src='/cdn-cgi/challenge-platform/scripts/jsd/main.js';document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(a);";b.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(d)}}if(document.body){var a=document.createElement('iframe');a.height=1;a.width=1;a.style.position='absolute';a.style.top=0;a.style.left=0;a.style.border='none';a.style.visibility='hidden';document.body.appendChild(a);if('loading'!==document.readyState)c();else if(window.addEventListener)document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded',c);else{var e=document.onreadystatechange||function(){};document.onreadystatechange=function(b){e(b);'loading'!==document.readyState&&(document.onreadystatechange=e,c())}}}})();< style=": ; top: 0px; left: 0px; border: medium none; visibility: ;" width="1" height="1">
------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 18 2024 at 21:00
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^ in the meantime, see https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=132330" rel="nofollow - If you have unwanted code in your post... (CLICK) ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: September 18 2024 at 22:46
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''Prog rock'' as a term has become much more broader that it used to be in the 70's. Then ELP, Yes, Genesis and Tull were the full on prog bands that could be clearly differentiated. Floyd were not widely regarded as prog and people would have laughed at the suggestion that Supertramp were prog. The psyche bands and J/R fusion bands were their own thing. The 2 most valid categories of prog to me looking at a historical basis are Symphonic prog and Neo Prog. The rest is a mixture of experimental and metal while J/R is largely jazz based (duh!) and has a totally different attitude to me not caring for classical forms of music on which prog is based. The fact it's included as 'prog' doesn't bother me although I am still very puzzled that Steely Dan are put in this category next to RTF and Mahavishnu. And then there is post rock whatever that is
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: September 18 2024 at 23:13
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 19 2024 at 00:06
| ^ RYM can sometimes be perceived as the ultimate authority on all things music simply because they have so many users - but quantity does not necessarily imply quality. It depends on who these users are, and what their background is. Of course the more users participate in rating and tagging, the better, generally speaking, the result will be. But if most of these users are teenagers, the result may never be accurate, regardless of quantity. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: September 19 2024 at 00:23
| ^I do not disagree to any of that. But RYM's model is just so much more presice than PA (which is what's being compared). Because it has the biggest online community of all the music sites, the wrongs added by uninformed teens or trolls - usually gets buried in the sheer amount of correct info. I very rarely come across information that proves to be totally wrong (something that in regards to genre tags, I experience at least 50% of the time on Discogs). When I do notice obvious wrongs, it's always extremely obscure albums/artists with very limited info. As long as I'm aware, it's not a big issue or an actual problem. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: September 19 2024 at 02:00
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------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 19 2024 at 02:09
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^ RYM is not the only music website with a more precise tagging system than PA ... pretty much all major prog websites are more precise, since they assign genres (at least) on the release level. Back in 2009 I debated this with M@x to no avail, one of the reasons why I left PA back then (and founded PF/AP) was this limitation. I agree that RYM gets it right (or at least right enough) for most major releases, but the user base is biased towards experimental/avant/black metal/hip-hop/experimental stuff. Of course this doesn't always necessarily cause problems, since by and large users stay away from music they do not like nor care about. I'm just saying that the large user base has both advantages and disadvantages. IMHO a much smaller user base could be just as good (or even better) at separating the awesome from the mediocre (and putting it in reasonable genre "buckets"), given the appropriate tools (a flexible genre system).
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 19 2024 at 02:49
| ^ To tie this back to the topic, given PA's crude genre system, JR-F needs to be included in order to be able to list not only essential prog artists like Mahavishnu Orchestra, but also "fringe" prog artists like Miles Davis. As a consequence, this leads to peculiar results, such as Miles Davis - Kind of Blue (a more or less pure Jazz release) being listed as the #1 Jazz-Rock/Fusion release. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: September 19 2024 at 03:13
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: September 19 2024 at 04:24
Mmmhhhh!!!... I'd say it's not that he didn't want , but he couldn't... AFAIK, Max was limited to what he could do or add because of the base on which the database was built. Single genre was always the major flaw of PA, and the source of many fights amongst our collabs (including us two). i seem to remember you were for the multiplication of prog genres at first then fell back on the description tags used in the RYM mode. Personally, back thenn I preferred giving a second and third genre to a band (without making hyperlinks I suggested he created another column with those hyperlink-less genre of those alphabetical list page, he had agreed to the principle, but for some (technical?) reason, he couldn't do it ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 19 2024 at 04:38
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^ No, M@x could have moved the genre to the release level if he had wanted to, I think he decided against it because it would have been a lot of work and people were flocking to the website because of the free mp3s, and since SEO is the main purpose of the website, it ultimately was not worth the effort. I think I argued in favour of this change first and foremost back then, but it's too long for me to remember any details. Adding more genres to an artist is not particularly helpful IMO because it does not help anyone new to an artist to find out which release contains which ...
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 19 2024 at 06:09
Yes, "Prog Rock" as a term has become broader but some places more than other. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: September 19 2024 at 08:12
Hi, I think, in time, this will average out some and if the numbers are "teenagers" ... we know one thing for sure ... their attention changes quickly and they will go somewhere else and find something else. The folks that "believe" in the whole thing as "progressive" (regardless of its sub-d's) will, likely stick around ... and support the music. My only concern is history ... in general a musical/artistic scene lasts a certain amount of time, and very few of them in the history of the arts last over 50 years ... which might suggest that we are quickly running out of time, if this holds ... and I hope that the many sub-d's that we have ended up with are what will eventually break it all apart ... I, honestly, have no worries about any of the definitions, except one ... "symphonic" that has material in it that should not be there, simply because a band has a keyboard or two.
And I wonder how much this is a part of the problem ... and we can take GENESIS starting out as folk/rock, then developing into "progressive", only to fall back into a lot of material that made them money but in all honesty does not fit what we consider "progressive" ... it might be best to immediately state at the INTRO for the band, that its aims changed ... and not even mention the rest of the albums? But, I thing that will hurt/confuse things even more ... unless we can find a "genre" that covers all the bases.
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: September 19 2024 at 08:21
Pretty much agree with all this. RYM does an excellent job with tagging albums multiply (both primary and secondary genres) for albums generally over 50 votes however some of the more obscure releases can be totally wrong. There is a tendency to tag avant-garde metal onto anything that's just slightly weird or experimental which is not what the term means. The thing i love about RYM is that the genre tags are constantly expanding. In recent years dissonant death metal and dissonant black metal have been added however some newer tags like downtempo deathcore and some of the hip hop tags are rather unnecessary so it does seem they get carried away a bit. Personally i prefer a more precise description because sometimes i want to laser focus my search. PA is woefully behind the times and given the owner's lack of desire to maintain even the most basic upgrades, it seems unlikely this site will continue in the future except perhaps as a clunky relic of the past. I do hope this changes of course. A partnership with you would be beneficial as you are much more active here than he is and have all the skills required to make it snazzy again :) ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: September 19 2024 at 11:12
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^Dude, I can't even read that without highlighting it. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: mellotronwave
Date Posted: September 19 2024 at 11:50
| I frankly don't know and I don't care |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 19 2024 at 12:18
When you look at RYM's top 200 Jazz-Rock / Jazz Fusion albums all-time, 52 of these 200 albums are also tagged as Progressive Rock or one of, what RYM consider to be, Prog sub-genres, which btw are: Avant-Prog, incl. Brutal Prog, RIO and Zeuhl Canterbury Scene Neo-Prog Symphonic Prog ( https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/progressive-rock/ ) This number of albums may indicate an overlap of about 25% of Jazz-Rock / Jazz Fusion between those genres and Progressive Rock and its sub-genres. These 25% are of course a very large number of albums, as Jazz-Rock and Jazz Fusion are rather big genres. ( https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:jazz%2drock,jazz%2dfusion/ )
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Floydoid
Date Posted: September 19 2024 at 13:19
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Personally as genres I have no interest in J-R Fusion or PR/MR and all the metal genres but they are here. So be it. ------------- 'We're going to need a bigger swear jar.' |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 19 2024 at 13:39
I've seen your review of Happy the Man's debut on RYM - a good read.  ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: September 19 2024 at 16:00
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^ thanks for the kind words, good buddy! Look! No script on my phone 🎉🎉🎉 ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: September 19 2024 at 20:28
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I don't care what other sites say, I really enjoy the intelligence and banter among everyone on PA!! I've learned a great deal, have been introduced to many bands I never would have found on my own, and feel as though I've contributed. The Prog Music journey, for musicians (I'm one), fans and family, is a very personal experience involving discovery, excitement and, yes, a bit of risk on occasion. I like being here, where the boundaries can be pushed and definitions have some "give." "Yes, Virginia, Jazz-Rock Fusion is Prog." ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 20 2024 at 04:38
I understand indeed what you're saying, as it's also very personal for not so few of us what to consider as being Progressive Rock.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: September 20 2024 at 06:00
Do you then consider JRF as a part of prog? ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 20 2024 at 06:11
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Sure. Everything is prog now, including the Archies. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 20 2024 at 06:23
I consider JRF as a part of progressive music - even I've always loved not so little of Jazz-Rock/Fusion, and today, JRF may be my second most favourite sub-genre of progressive music, next after Symphonic Prog (including RPI). ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 20 2024 at 07:04
JRF and Prog intersect, and because of that it makes sense to include JRF. But obviously not all JRF releases are Prog.
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Posted By: bardberic
Date Posted: September 20 2024 at 07:57
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I agree with its inclusion here. Incidentally, I'm building a genre tree and have jazz fusion under progressive music, and jazz rock under jazz fusion and rock. Not always (nor typically) "true" progressive rock, but is an expression of more artistic popular forms of music in a general sense (eg, progressive music, the umbrella for prog rock, prog metal, prog pop, etc.) |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 20 2024 at 08:02
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^ If it's an actual tree (where all elements have only one parent), I'd like to see how you square rock/metal and prog/non-prog ... I think it's a major challenge
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 20 2024 at 09:04
It'd be interesting for me to see which genres you'll include as progressive music, as I certainly find it to be something of a challenge to define this umbrella - even I have some ideas.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 20 2024 at 10:22
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I think most any genre can have progressive music within it, and of course genres can overlap and fuse with other genres, which in itself can be very progressive. I commonly include "art", "experimental" and "progressive" music together. A little digression... I had wanted to make a site years ago that focused on modern (say 1950 up) art, experimental and progressive music. This would include modern classical, art music, electronic, folkly, rocky, art pop..., post-punk jazz and jazzy music and more, more, more.. Sun Ra would be there, so would Stockhausen, so would King Crimson, Laurie Anderson, Velvet Underground etc. etc. If it weren't for this forum, I would find PA too limited in scope, despite its great variety, to maintain my interest for all of these years. By the way, and I am expressing myself badly, the fusion of genres is such a common characteristic of Progressive Rock that including Jazz-Rock Fusion especially seems a good fit (but not all need apply). Already taking jazz qualities if common in well recognised and more stereotypical in style symph rock bands. And many jazz bands took a similar route by incorporating rock and other genres. Basically as Mike said, I say that Prog and JRF intersect, and they overlap. It all is or all isn't presents a false dichotomy. There's a spectrum etc. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Starshiper
Date Posted: September 20 2024 at 10:36
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 20 2024 at 10:44
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I've never been on the JR/T team nor have I seen it said what the derivation was, but I see it as denoting a separation, and I see it as related, and overlapping. Of course PA does it with a few categories that have relations. Jazz Fusion that incorporates rock and Jazz-Rock are commonly treated as different entities and that category includes both. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: September 20 2024 at 12:49
I could agree with that, BUT the actual definition of "prog" still evades me. Is it musical virtuosity, above & beyond what conventional, blues-based rock employs? If that were the case, then the blazing guitar solo in "Rock Around the Clock" would qualify!! I really must confess that the definition of "prog" continues to evade me. However, I know what I like. ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 20 2024 at 14:34
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^ Ok, here's yet another attempt to define "prog" in a short paragraph: "prog takes conventional music of a given genre and expands on it in terms of musical prowess, experimentation, grandeur, complexity, improvisation, lyrical depth etc.. usually in more than one of these dimensions."
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: September 20 2024 at 14:52
I can think of a few neo bands that totally missed the mark on "usually (in) more than one of these dimensions." ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: September 20 2024 at 15:17
But what about electronic prog, which created new musical forms out of nothing? I'm thinking of Tangerine Dream specifically. I suppose one could quibble whether it should be called "rock," but the use of rock instrumentation would seem to allow for it. ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: September 20 2024 at 15:19
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Doesn't capture a lot of avant / zeuhl euther. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 20 2024 at 15:43
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^ I was only taking a casual swing at the definition, feel free to expand
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: September 20 2024 at 15:46
Experimentation, first and foremostly! That was a completely new thing. Then grandeur and complexity followed, though some of the fandom still prefer the earlier spaced-out Dream. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: September 20 2024 at 19:58
Prog, and especially prog rock imo isn't just that. What for me separates prog rock from any other kind of experimental rock music is that in addition to the complex and unconventional elements, in has to in some way also reference the progressive rock classics. ------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |