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David_D View Drop Down
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    Posted: November 09 2021 at 23:26
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

The biggest problem with only getting recommendations from people who have the same tastes as you, is that you might miss out on a gem that's outside your echo chamber. I've discovered, or more accurately, been turned on to, music outside my world that opened my eyes to a whole other avenue of music.

good point

JD wrote:
"Life's like that in general. Explore what others find enjoyable and try to understand where their joy comes from."

very constructive life approach

JD wrote:
"So how many point I get for that pearl David?"

my comments
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Am I James?

How I finished second?

Yes, "James" here.

David_D wrote:
"I have assigned each person a number of points which are the sum of points assigned all the albums chosen plus additional points depending on the number of albums chosen and the similarity of one's ranking with the ranking on the top 30 list."
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

The present state of our rating result is following:
Lewian  -  666 + 250 = 916
James  -  538 + 220 = 758
David  -  486 + 180 = 666 
JD  -  474 + 190 = 664
Nogbad  -  460 + 180 = 640
P. Paul  -  422 + 180 = 602
Nick  -  430 + 170 = 600
Mirakaze  -  436 + 140 = 576
Cristi  -  406 + 120 = 526
Prophesy - 308 + 70 = 378  
Essexboy - 256 + 60 = 316 
Grumpy  -  224 + 40 = 264
Shadowyzard  -  118 + 20 = 138
progaardvark  -  150 (for independence)
suitkees  -  50 (for originality)

Am I James?

How I finished second?
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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JD View Drop Down
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The biggest problem with only getting recommendations from people who have the same tastes as you, is that you might miss out on a gem that's outside your echo chamber. I've discovered, or more accurately, been turned on to, music outside my world that opened my eyes to a whole other avenue of music.
Life's like that in general. Explore what others find enjoyable and try to understand where their joy comes from.

So how many point I get for that pearl David?
Thank you for supporting independently produced music
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I don't pay much attention to generalized/average top ** lists. I too would rather get recommendations (direct or indirect) from specific people whose tastes have something in common with mine; that will give me a better idea of what's in store for me and it puts me into contact with more artists and albums that are off the beaten path, so to say. On this forum, I think Nogbad The Bad, Silly Puppy and Man With Hat are the people whose musical recommendations I find the most consistently rewarding.
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Logan View Drop Down
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Points: 37233 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2021 at 14:41
I don't spend much time each day listening to music and while I have thousands of albums in my collection, I rarely listen to the majority of them.   I have been very into all of those at one time, but my tastes shift. On a daily basis my tastes might vary. I generally find it easy to find new-to-me music that interests me if I have good idea about the kind of music I want, and I also quite regularly have some nice surprises that might change the direction of my music interests (at least for a while). I am interested in far more than Prog, although a lot of what I like I think has similarities with Prog. Pram is a band I got very into over the last couple of years and I see it's now been suggested to PA. If you try the Interactive polls, you might also discover some interesting-to-you music, and I like how it gets you thinking about and considering the music you know. A while go I was most into William D. Drake and related music.

My point though (an aside to ongoing discussion) was that charts (aggregate ratings and rankings) can be useful to me when I can, and the more I can, fine-tune the parameters / the more specific my search is. For instance, I might be craving a modern jazzy tropica art pop release with psychedelic qualities and so search using those kinds of tags. Google searches for artists like so-and-so are useful to me as well, ofthen that will take me to reddit.

Hopefully people here will help to recommend music to you the better they get to know your tastes and personality. I have had a large amount of amazing to me music recommended to me here. I don't really want to discover as much new-to-me music as I used to, but when in the mood, I do find it quite easy to at least find something that fits my current interests very well that I hadn't yet known and I often do find new things to me that open up new avenues of interest and exploration.

Good luck with your music journey.
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Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I might have go through quite a few before I find one new to me that really works 

After nearly 50 years of very intense music interest, and always looking for new music, and trying to broaden my musical taste, I'm today in fact in that situation that it has become very difficult for me to "find one new to me that really works". So, right now I'm just listening to my small (about 450 albums) collection and wonder what next. 
Plus, after a very long break, I've returned to PA forums for some talk, discussions and appreciation of Prog, and it already looks like that it'll be very good for my further music loving.
And in fact it's rather exiting, too, what will happen next, and, like the last years, how, when and what I'll find as the"one new to me that really works".


Edited by David_D - November 09 2021 at 15:30
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Logan View Drop Down
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Points: 37233 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2021 at 11:04
I do find album charts useful still for discovering new-to-me music. The more fine-tuned the search, the better for me generally. I like to use RYM and search for albums using various filters (genres, descriptors, years etc.) The charts search functions are of course much more customisable than at PA -- much easier to hone/ fine-tune the search. I might have go through quite a few before I find one new to me that really works (usually it's quite easy to find the kind of specific things I want at the time) -- I look at the descriptors, read some reviews if available and keep a youtube tab open to check out music.

Edited by Logan - November 09 2021 at 11:06
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Lewian View Drop Down
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What interests me about the top lists is whether I can understand why the things are on top that are on top. This is obviously easier if I like them. But there's clearly a difference between what I like, and what's top list material (even though I like most of your top list here). Unfortunately I cannot bring myself to the state anymore in which I didn't know Close to the Edge, Bitches Brew, or Dark Side of the Moon, but I'd like the idea to have albums played to me, without telling me which is which, of which some are in the Top 50 prog albums listed in a list made by music lovers with some experience and expertise, and the others, while still good, aren't anywhere near to any of these lists, to see whether I could tell them apart. For sure I'd have an opinion, but I'm not quite that sure about my success rate. 
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David_D View Drop Down
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Points: 15561 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2021 at 07:12
I will say one more thing in favour of "classics".
If they were not there, our possibilities for common ground would be much smaller, and thus the possibilities to share common interests would be much smaller, as well.


Edited by David_D - November 09 2021 at 13:11
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

That’s not to say that these high rated classics are unjustly so, so much as there could easily be newer classics that may be just as appreciated, and potentially more so, but simply can’t get over the hurdle of the sheer number of ratings attributed to the earlier released albums.

Here I must say, as my lists weight the number of ratings very high, they have big relevance concerning who get included in them. On the other hand, due to the digital ways of communication, it's easier today to get high number of ratings.
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

^Thank you very much for this contribution, Nick, it makes a good start for part three.

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

any list that is “for all time” inevitably reaches a point where it can’t change dramatically. Look at the PA top 10 or 20, for instance. They are never likely to greatly change. 

About this, how much that kind of top lists changes, you can get a pretty good impression when comparing the top 30 list in this thread, made in 2009, with the earlier list I presented in "Top 100 alltime!", made in 2019 (they are made with almost exactly the same method, and yet, at least except from that I didn't include Radiohead in 2019).
My own conclusion is that you're quite right in the above, even I won't say "never". 
- But one might argue, it has quite a lot to do with the quality of high rated "classics".

Anyway, I will also say that the differences between top lists get bigger if we broaden their scopes.
The list, I made in 2009, is in a fact a 150 list, and compared to the 2019 (160) list, I would say the similarities are biggest in the top of these lists and significantly smaller in the bottom - but okay, I can't tell for sure in what degree that might be due to the differences in my methods used in 2009 and 2019 respectively, as there are some small though differences.
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

^Thank you very much for this contribution, Nick, it makes a good start for part three.

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

any list that is “for all time” inevitably reaches a point where it can’t change dramatically. Look at the PA top 10 or 20, for instance. They are never likely to greatly change. 

About this, how much that kind of top lists changes, you can get a pretty good impression when comparing the top 30 list in this thread, made in 2009, with the earlier list I presented in "Top 100 alltime!", made in 2019 (they are made with almost exactly the same method, and yet, at least except from that I didn't include Radiohead in 2019).
My own conclusion is that you're quite right in the above, even I won't say "never". 
- But one might argue, it has quite a lot to do with the quality of high rated "classics".

One might - but I think it’s important to remember that once something is entrenched it is very hard to remove, supplant or usurp it. That’s not to say that these high rated classics are unjustly so, so much as there could easily be newer classics that may be just as appreciated, and potentially more so, but simply can’t get over the hurdle of the sheer number of ratings attributed to the earlier released albums.

So, personally, I don’t put much credence into the idea that the high rated classics are there because they are inherently better, so much as that they simply have more opportunity to have been appreciated, and it becomes self-perpetuating after awhile, because new listeners look at the list, and listen to what they see, like it and add to the high ratings.
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David_D View Drop Down
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^Thank you very much for this contribution, Nick, it makes a good start for part three.

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

any list that is “for all time” inevitably reaches a point where it can’t change dramatically. Look at the PA top 10 or 20, for instance. They are never likely to greatly change. 

About this, how much that kind of top lists changes, you can get a pretty good impression when comparing the top 30 list in this thread, made in 2009, with the earlier list I presented in "Top 100 alltime!", made in 2019 (they are made with almost exactly the same method, and yet, at least except from that I didn't include Radiohead in 2019).
My own conclusion is that you're quite right in the above, even I won't say "never". 
- But one might argue, it has quite a lot to do with the quality of high rated "classics".


Edited by David_D - November 09 2021 at 03:56
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^ I think you’ve probably struck why a lot of us don’t really pay much attention to top lists, and that is because it is too easy to miss some absolute gems, while chasing after what everyone else seems to like.

The only lists I ever pay attention to are those at the end of any given year, when people list their favourite releases from that year. And even then, I pay attention only to the lists made by people and pages I am friends with or follow on FB. While this sets me up for accusations of being in an echo chamber, I think it’s an echo chamber of far greater depth and diversity than the sort of top lists implied by this game. For a start, any list that is “for all time” inevitably reaches a point where it can’t change dramatically. Look at the PA top 10 or 20, for instance. They are never likely to greatly change. The lists I look at, conversely, are inevitably all completely different from each other.

As I think I said in an earlier post, my exploration of music is far more likely to come from people than lists. I can appreciate why you use lists the way you do, and I know you are far from being alone in doing so, but it’s not for everyone - and it’s definitely not for me!
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David_D View Drop Down
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Okay, I've got an idea about part three:

Let us discuss our approach to top lists, whether "objective" or personal. 

And to begin this part, I can repeat what I already have told about to you:
"What I can tell here is that for different reasons for many years I've had very much focus on top lists and high rated classics (from really many countries, though), and on one hand it has been very giving for me as it made easier to find albums I like. It has also broaden my musical taste and "raised the level" of it as I could end liking albums which I didn't in the begining, say Close to the Edge, Nursery Cryme, Godbluff and Lark's Tongue in Aspic. I've become very well informed about the most appreciated albums and bands in that way, too.
On the other hand, it has become quite an obsession which makes it difficult for me to appreciate obscure albums and find them worthy being a part of my collection - it still happens though, say Universe (UK) - Universe (1971) Smile, and I must add here that I want to keep my collection very small.
Edit:
On the plus side, I've seen as well that even I' didn't like a high rated classic in the beginning, after I become fond of it, I mostly never did get tired of it, on the contrary, through the years, often appreciated it more and more."

Edit:
And this is Shadowyzard's minimalistic approach:
"My criterion: Quality over quantity. And a "top 3" is the most "classy" top of all tops."


Edited by David_D - November 09 2021 at 09:19
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David_D View Drop Down
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The present state of our rating result is following:
Lewian  -  666 + 250 = 916
James  -  538 + 220 = 758
David  -  486 + 180 = 666 
JD  -  474 + 190 = 664
Nogbad  -  460 + 180 = 640
P. Paul  -  422 + 180 = 602
Nick  -  430 + 170 = 600
Mirakaze  -  436 + 140 = 576
Cristi  -  406 + 120 = 526
Prophesy - 308 + 70 = 378  
Essexboy - 256 + 60 = 316 
Grumpy  -  224 + 40 = 264
Shadowyzard  -  118 + 20 = 138
progaardvark  -  150 (for independence)
suitkees  -  50 (for originality)
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^ It is clear enough. I tried my luck, but this is "your" game, and the master is you here. Plus, this is a game for fun. I'm not dismayed. Party
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Shadowyzard Shadowyzard wrote:

1-) 38 Van Der Graaf Generator  (UK) :   Pawn Hearts  (1971)   12,49 (1908 b.)
2-) 48 Yes  (UK) :   Close To The Edge  (1972)   12,87 (5157 b.)
3-) 32 Marillion  (UK) :   Misplaced Childhood  (1985)   12,06 (1849 b.)

My criterion: Quality over quantity. And a "top 3" is the most "classy" top of all tops. Mark my words, David from Denmark. Star

If you want to advocate for your kind of top lists, Shadowyzard, you could tell some more about your approach, here.


Edited by David_D - November 09 2021 at 01:27
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David_D View Drop Down
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Nick, any ideas about what part three could be?
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