Annie Haslam for Crossover Prog?

AFlowerKingCrimson wrote: <span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">There isn't one track with anything approaching a prog structure on Annie in Wonderland.</span> <span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"> </span> And what exactly is a "prog structure?" Is there some rule that prog has to have a certain structure to the songs? By that definition then maybe the Moody Blues aren't prog. Too song oriented. And geez there goes a lot of neo and crossover prog too.Whoops. Anyway, I'm not really saying Annie in Wonderland is or isn't prog but it's not just wikipedia. Allmusic and discogs both list it as prog rock also.

A prog structure would be one that doesn't merely rely on reiteration of verse chorus with a bridge and has extended sections, usually instruments. What Moody Blues did in 1967 cannot be applied to a 1977 album arriving at the tail end of the 70s prog wave. If you have good arguments as to why Annie In Wonderland is prog, make them but please don't resort to Appeal to Authority.

rogerthat wrote: SteveG wrote: Psychedelic Paul wrote: Annie Haslam could be considered for inclusion as either Prog-Related, Crossover Prog or Symphonic Prog. I'll leave that for the relevant PA team members to decide between them. I don't want to get into a pointless argument about which category of prog Annie Haslam belongs in.  Annie Haslam's prog credentials are far stronger than those of Kate Bush or Tori Amos in my opinion.   Anyone who dismisses Annie Haslam as an "MOR Pop singer", as SteveG did earlier, clearly doesn't know much about music, so if anyone needs an education here, it's SteveG.  To make you feel better Paul, I meant that Annie's solo albums taken purely in isolation, would paint her as an MOR artist. A fact that she readily agrees with and has stated so on many occasions and is quite proud of that fact. She was making solo albums in order to make a living and did not see prog as a way of getting there at the time. Please be aware that many members like myself personally know Annie as well other prog artists, even though we don't publicize the fact, and we know of what we speak and would not say anything that these artists would find to be contrary. What they say is what we relate to others, no more no less. You may not need an education in musical genres but you definitely need an education in how to relate with other adults that you disagree with. I found your responses to be quite childish and annoying. As usual. It is rumoured that she was not optimistic about Song For All Seasons sales prospects and was saying she would have to go solo if it failed. It didn't but her overall prognosis wasn't wrong, just ahead of time by a few years.

kenethlevine wrote: ^ Hey Madan it's about time you commented on this thread.  If I'd thought about it earlier I would have PM'd you.  While I totally agree, and have already stated, that Annie's solo career has nary a hint of prog, I won't think a guitar riff is necessary for symphonic rock.  And I think there were a couple of tracks on Annie in Wonderland that came close to what Renaissance was doing at the time - eg - Back Home once again or Northern Lights.  They were the ones with Jon Camp's involvement.  But then if Renaissance had only done songs like that they themselves would probably not be here either

I think the question was about Still Life and not Annie in Wonderland which does have a little bit of rock. Anyhow, I am just trying to impress on him how off base his suggestion is. Getting riled up at these folks, most of whom happen to at least respect Annie Haslam if not like her work, for not agreeing is at best a good way for Paul to convince himself that he is right. Now, very broadly, I would agree that you could do away with riffs and still make symphonic rock but it should then have some semblance of symphonic structure. Still Life is arias with some 80s drums added on. Symphonic shlock is an accurate description. Some of the arrangements on there (NOT done by Annie) approach soap commercial levels of cheesiness but Annie saves the album with her singing. Which isn't surprising. She can sing the phone book and make it sound soulful. But she can't make it sound prog.

^ Hey Madan it's about time you commented on this thread.  If I'd thought about it earlier I would have PM'd you.  While I totally agree, and have already stated, that Annie's solo career has nary a hint of prog, I won't think a guitar riff is necessary for symphonic rock.  And I think there were a couple of tracks on Annie in Wonderland that came close to what Renaissance was doing at the time - eg - Back Home once again or Northern Lights.  They were the ones with Jon Camp's involvement.  But then if Renaissance had only done songs like that they themselves would probably not be here either  

AFlowerKingCrimson wrote: SteveG wrote: AFlowerKingCrimson wrote: SteveG wrote: AFlowerKingCrimson wrote: To be fair her first album "Annie in Wonderland" is listed as symphonic rock and progressive rock on wikipedia and her second one as symphonic rock. So, that's something. To be fair, listen for yourself. All of the above videos are Annie's favorites from these albums as were related in the liner notes of the CDs and on blog sites. I don't find anything progressive about these songs. The Still Life album that's deemed Symphonic Rock is Symphonic Shlock. Again, there's nothing progressive about these songs but it is a great idea. The Blessing In Disguise album is pure MOR as is the Woman Transcending album that has a touch of electro pop as well as two Country Rock songs! I won't post the country rock songs and spare you. This is a true representation of Annie's solo output, and as she herself has said, it's is not prog rock. Again, you have ears, make up your own mind or listen to the entire albums on Youtube and then decide. The MOR will remain as long as you care to listen. Now, I'm going to listen to some KC and forget all about these songs for today. So then why post them if they aren't progressive? Just to show us how non prog she was? I was just telling you what she was listed as in wikipedia. Anyone could pull out a few songs from a few albums and say they weren't progressive just because of a few songs. Geesh. I could put up more fool me and I know what I like and say selling england wasn't prog or wonderous stories and going for the one and say GFTO wasn't prog. I don't think wikipedia would list her as progressive rock if they didn't feel that way. I don't always agree with them but heck I don't always agree with PA either. That's why I said that you have ears and to listen to the entire albums, in snippets, to decide for yourself. We've all become quite dependent on relying on sources like Wikipedia to classify and identify genres, etc. as well as listening to someone constantly state that a certain body of music is progressive when it's not. That's why we have so many questionable entries listed in PA under the various sub genres. And to be fair, these posts are not aimed at you and other members but to the PA contributors who determine which artists are included in PA. I still have faith that they judge with their ears and not by what's written in dubious authorities like Wikipedia. <font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> <font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> I guess we all have our opinions don't we? Regardless point taken. Wikipedia really isn't any more dubious than progarchives. They have to list sources on there. It's not just people talking out of their butts. I'm not just saying that because I'm an editor on there either. ;)

Wiki can classify it however they want. There isn't one track with anything approaching a prog structure on Annie in Wonderland. I have that album in my collection and I love it too. Her cover of If I Loved You is better than Streisand's. But that doesn't make it prog. Nature Boy is just jazz related or something. Call it or her solo career whatever you will if some people find MOR too offensive a label, but it's not prog. I wonder if Paul is aware that Annie once said if she hadn't become the singer of Renaissance, she may not even have gone in a prog direction and saw folk-rock as her thing.

progaardvark wrote: Gee, I thought she was neo prog.

Oh god, Annie has been rejected

Gee, I thought she was neo prog. 

AFlowerKingCrimson wrote: SteveG wrote: AFlowerKingCrimson wrote: To be fair her first album "Annie in Wonderland" is listed as symphonic rock and progressive rock on wikipedia and her second one as symphonic rock. So, that's something. To be fair, listen for yourself. All of the above videos are Annie's favorites from these albums as were related in the liner notes of the CDs and on blog sites. I don't find anything progressive about these songs. The Still Life album that's deemed Symphonic Rock is Symphonic Shlock. Again, there's nothing progressive about these songs but it is a great idea. The Blessing In Disguise album is pure MOR as is the Woman Transcending album that has a touch of electro pop as well as two Country Rock songs! I won't post the country rock songs and spare you. This is a true representation of Annie's solo output, and as she herself has said, it's is not prog rock. Again, you have ears, make up your own mind or listen to the entire albums on Youtube and then decide. The MOR will remain as long as you care to listen. Now, I'm going to listen to some KC and forget all about these songs for today. So then why post them if they aren't progressive? Just to show us how non prog she was? I was just telling you what she was listed as in wikipedia. Anyone could pull out a few songs from a few albums and say they weren't progressive just because of a few songs. Geesh. I could put up more fool me and I know what I like and say selling england wasn't prog or wonderous stories and going for the one and say GFTO wasn't prog. I don't think wikipedia would list her as progressive rock if they didn't feel that way. I don't always agree with them but heck I don't always agree with PA either.

That's why I said that you have ears and to listen to the entire albums, in snippets, to decide for yourself. We've all become quite dependent on relying on sources like Wikipedia to classify and identify genres, etc. as well as listening to someone constantly state that a certain body of music is progressive when it's not. That's why we have so many questionable entries listed in PA under the various sub genres.

Edited by SteveG - November 13 2019 at 04:32

I am still older than you, but I just couldn't resist....Hopefully no offense taken, none was taken by me.