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Alitare
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Joined: March 08 2008
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Posted: May 10 2011 at 12:37 |
1791 Overture wrote:
Alitare wrote:
1791 Overture wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
1791 Overture wrote:
Rush and the Moody Blues aren't prog. |
Then neither are Jethro Tull. Yes or Genesis. In fact, prog does not exist. It's a myth. |
No, Yes and Genesis were prog, and JT was for a few albums. Moody Blues were psychedelic pop, Rush was hard rock, Styx was arena rock/AOR. |
What is prog? Doesn't that depend on your definition of the word? According to this site, Rush were heavy prog and MB were psychedelic crossover pop prog, and Styx were (prog related? I don't remember where the site has them). I could say Yes were hard rock, I could say Genesis were symphonic rock. I could say JT were just hard folk.
At any rate, I thought Elf was being sarcastic. |
Sounded to me like sarcasm that was trying to make a serious point beneath it - i.e., "your definition of prog is so strict that prog may as well not exist." Which is of course bullsh*t, because those three bands don't exhibit any of the qualities associated with prog, such as demanding or unconventional song structures. And no, Genesis and Yes could not similarly be reduced away, because they actually do have those qualities.
Anyway, back to lyrics - it seems to me like you're just trying to arbitrarily what is or isn't emotional or "human" and box it in. Music is always going to be human, because as far as we know we're the only ones who can even appreciate it in the sense we think about it. So no, Close to the Edge isn't somehow less human, and many people do find it emotional. I'm tired of this mentality that "it's only human and emotional if it talks about a breakup, or some obvious feeling of sorrow or anger." The whole point of progressive music is to find new modes of expression. Why not have subject matter that's more removed from daily experience? Pop and alt rock seem to have solidified the notion that the pinnacle of human emotion is how a sixteen year old feels after getting dumped, and that anything that deviates from that deviates from being "emotional," which really means "music how I like it and f**k anyone trying to be different wink wink." Tired of the reactionary crap, tired of the chauvinism. Write lyrics about whatever you want. "Real music for real people, no prog allowed!" is crap. Real people listen to prog and actually enjoy its lyrics, imagine that.
If you prefer lyrics that deal with your definition of human and emotional, there's music for you everywhere. At least let us have our little corner where we can do something else for once, because some people consider what you find emotional to be banal, and would not enjoy all music being confined to it. |
You don't even understand why I'm here. You make some irrational assessments of me. You think I think all prog lyrics are bad, and all indie/alt rock lyrics are good. Hell, I hate most indie and alt rock lyrics with a passion. I like half of prog, the half that doesn't focus on the most complicated structures imaginable for the sole sake of being complex. I love the half of prog that isn't based on worshiping Yes or Dream Theater or what have you.
Also, does your definition of prog solely include 'demanding and unconventional song structures'? If so, Rush fits right in with their four song albums and sidelong mutlipart epics and such. Isn't 2112 demanding and unconventional (even if I hate it)? Hell, it's gone full circle and I'm defending Rush. Clearly you are the antichrist.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: May 10 2011 at 10:35 |
1791 Overture wrote:
I'm tired of this mentality that "it's only human and emotional if it talks about a breakup, or some obvious feeling of sorrow or anger."
At least let us have our little corner where we can do something else for once, because some people consider what you find emotional to be banal, and would not enjoy all music being confined to it. |
That first line is a gross generalization because there are lots of extremely nuanced and interesting human feelings to talk about which have been dealt with very well by artists from various genres over the years. Maybe you are unable to 'condescend' to listen properly to 'non-prog'.  And as for the other line, I am equally tired of the notion that only talking about sci-fi or fantasy unicorns is 'intelligent' and 'intellectual' and anything else is 'emo'. I do think lines like "You work your life away and what do they give/you're only killing yourself to live" make a much more direct and memorable impact than say Farewell-era Rush's stuffiness. Well, at least for me they do, and can we 'outcasts' have our own little corner to listen to some soulful music once in a while because we don't think it's a sin?
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1791 Overture
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Joined: December 29 2010
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Posted: May 10 2011 at 09:47 |
Alitare wrote:
1791 Overture wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
1791 Overture wrote:
Rush and the Moody Blues aren't prog. |
Then neither are Jethro Tull. Yes or Genesis. In fact, prog does not exist. It's a myth. |
No, Yes and Genesis were prog, and JT was for a few albums. Moody Blues were psychedelic pop, Rush was hard rock, Styx was arena rock/AOR. |
What is prog? Doesn't that depend on your definition of the word? According to this site, Rush were heavy prog and MB were psychedelic crossover pop prog, and Styx were (prog related? I don't remember where the site has them). I could say Yes were hard rock, I could say Genesis were symphonic rock. I could say JT were just hard folk.
At any rate, I thought Elf was being sarcastic. |
Sounded to me like sarcasm that was trying to make a serious point beneath it - i.e., "your definition of prog is so strict that prog may as well not exist." Which is of course bullsh*t, because those three bands don't exhibit any of the qualities associated with prog, such as demanding or unconventional song structures. And no, Genesis and Yes could not similarly be reduced away, because they actually do have those qualities.
Anyway, back to lyrics - it seems to me like you're just trying to arbitrarily what is or isn't emotional or "human" and box it in. Music is always going to be human, because as far as we know we're the only ones who can even appreciate it in the sense we think about it. So no, Close to the Edge isn't somehow less human, and many people do find it emotional. I'm tired of this mentality that "it's only human and emotional if it talks about a breakup, or some obvious feeling of sorrow or anger." The whole point of progressive music is to find new modes of expression. Why not have subject matter that's more removed from daily experience? Pop and alt rock seem to have solidified the notion that the pinnacle of human emotion is how a sixteen year old feels after getting dumped, and that anything that deviates from that deviates from being "emotional," which really means "music how I like it and f**k anyone trying to be different wink wink." Tired of the reactionary crap, tired of the chauvinism. Write lyrics about whatever you want. "Real music for real people, no prog allowed!" is crap. Real people listen to prog and actually enjoy its lyrics, imagine that.
If you prefer lyrics that deal with your definition of human and emotional, there's music for you everywhere. At least let us have our little corner where we can do something else for once, because some people consider what you find emotional to be banal, and would not enjoy all music being confined to it.
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prog058
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Posted: May 10 2011 at 06:30 |
Eloy82 wrote:
Eloy rocks the lyrics... "Dawn".... come on... Brilliant.
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Was that a Ricky Gervais: 'brilliant,'? haha
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Earthsmoke
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Posted: May 09 2011 at 21:55 |
prog058 wrote:
This could also be called the Fish appreciation thread.
Prog bands, while excelling musically, are often lackluster in the lyrical department.
Most prog musicians probably don't take an interest in language and literature, and this is probably the reason why.
What are your thoughts?
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There are poor lyrics in every genre of music, including prog However, unlike other genres, the lyrics in prog are usually good and are often excellent.
Edited by Earthsmoke - May 09 2011 at 21:59
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Garden of Dreams
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Posted: May 09 2011 at 20:59 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
Garden of Dreams wrote:
...I still feel the music is more important than the lyrics anyway. I don't think I have heard lyrics that have drastically changed my life. |
Hmmm...being an adolescent and going to Catholic school in the early 70s, I would have to say that Aqualung was very meaningful. Ian Anderson said things about god and religion that I was wondering about. I haven't looked at religion the same since (in fact, I haven't looked at religion at all).
I would say there are many songs that have had relevance and caused epiphanies in my life. And of course that covers a wide spectrum of music, not merely prog. I don't see how anyone cannot be moved by Lennon's "Imagine" or "Working Class Hero", or Dylan's "It's alright Ma (I'm only Bleeding) and "Masters of War". Peter Gabriel's "Biko" or "Here Comes the Flood" are also cause for reflection.
Perhaps what some folks are getting at here is because so much of progressive rock deals with fantasy, science fiction or impressionistic vocal renderings, that there is not a great deal of "meaningful" lyrics; but then, from a stylistic standpoint, I would have to say that rock in general is downright trogloyditic and mostly deals with trying to get into women's pants. Which is a fairly natural expectation when you're in a band.  |
Another fair point. I definitely prefer prog lyrics to lyrics about getting "into a women's pants". I am a little unfair to myself as Faithless, by Rush, has helped mold my religious opinion. But I feel that lyrics may be relevant and maybe even eye opening but I don't expect to be wowed by them. I have to say that lyrics from The Tangent make me ponder.
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Alitare
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Posted: May 09 2011 at 11:08 |
1791 Overture wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
1791 Overture wrote:
Rush and the Moody Blues aren't prog. |
Then neither are Jethro Tull. Yes or Genesis. In fact, prog does not exist. It's a myth. |
No, Yes and Genesis were prog, and JT was for a few albums. Moody Blues were psychedelic pop, Rush was hard rock, Styx was arena rock/AOR. |
What is prog? Doesn't that depend on your definition of the word? According to this site, Rush were heavy prog and MB were psychedelic crossover pop prog, and Styx were (prog related? I don't remember where the site has them). I could say Yes were hard rock, I could say Genesis were symphonic rock. I could say JT were just hard folk.
At any rate, I thought Elf was being sarcastic.
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1791 Overture
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Posted: May 09 2011 at 01:47 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
1791 Overture wrote:
Rush and the Moody Blues aren't prog. |
Then neither are Jethro Tull. Yes or Genesis. In fact, prog does not exist. It's a myth. |
No, Yes and Genesis were prog, and JT was for a few albums. Moody Blues were psychedelic pop, Rush was hard rock, Styx was arena rock/AOR.
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Eloy82
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Points: 116
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 20:25 |
"Power and Passion".... makes no sense but still brilliant lyrics. Imagine if they made sense!
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Eloy82
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 20:24 |
Eloy rocks the lyrics... "Dawn".... come on... Brilliant.
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 16:57 |
Garden of Dreams wrote:
...I still feel the music is more important than the lyrics anyway. I don't think I have heard lyrics that have drastically changed my life. |
Hmmm...being an adolescent and going to Catholic school in the early 70s, I would have to say that Aqualung was very meaningful. Ian Anderson said things about god and religion that I was wondering about. I haven't looked at religion the same since (in fact, I haven't looked at religion at all).
I would say there are many songs that have had relevance and caused epiphanies in my life. And of course that covers a wide spectrum of music, not merely prog. I don't see how anyone cannot be moved by Lennon's "Imagine" or "Working Class Hero", or Dylan's "It's alright Ma (I'm only Bleeding) and "Masters of War". Peter Gabriel's "Biko" or "Here Comes the Flood" are also cause for reflection.
Perhaps what some folks are getting at here is because so much of progressive rock deals with fantasy, science fiction or impressionistic vocal renderings, that there is not a great deal of "meaningful" lyrics; but then, from a stylistic standpoint, I would have to say that rock in general is downright trogloyditic and mostly deals with trying to get into women's pants. Which is a fairly natural expectation when you're in a band. 
Edited by The Dark Elf - May 08 2011 at 16:58
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Garden of Dreams
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 10:43 |
rogerthat wrote:
Rather than being plagued by poor lyrics, prog is essentially more of an instrumentation-oriented style of music. As much as prog fans talk up their favourite prog singers - and there are some seriously talented ones like Haslam, Gildenlow - it is not the place where you'd expect to be drawn in emotionally by the vocals (regardless of whether the vocals are good or bad). Prog is more about intrigue and ambition and that necessarily means giving lyrics a sidestep sometimes. That is not necessarily a bad thing because instrumentation forms the backbone of great symphonies. But when it comes to prog, people continue to expect of it what they expect of the typical, short rock song format and feel disappointed. As for the quality of prog lyrics, it depends on the opposition you choose. Er, Genesis v/s Scorpions? Jethro Tull v/s ABBA? You can't really prove that prog always has poor lyrics or always has great lyrics because that's over-generalizing.
With that said, Fish writes first rate lyrics. I don't know about you - the OP - but the very line "in the playground of the broken hearts" is unforgettable for me and I don't even relate to or analyze lyrics all that much because I am more interested in the music. |
Well put sir. I love Fish's lyrics. Having meaningful lyrics add to songs but in most cases decent lyrics don't detract from the song. I still feel the music is more important than the lyrics anyway. I don't think I have heard lyrics that have drastically changed my life.
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Alitare
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 10:25 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
Alitare wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
1791 Overture wrote:
Rush and the Moody Blues aren't prog. |
Then neither are Jethro Tull. Yes or Genesis. In fact, prog does not exist. It's a myth. |
Just like the Kennedy assassination. |
If you look very closely at the Zapruder film, there is a guitarist on the grassy knoll next to the guy with the black umbrella. |
Isn't he holding a copy of Catcher in the Rye, too?
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rogerthat
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 10:21 |
Rather than being plagued by poor lyrics, prog is essentially more of an instrumentation-oriented style of music. As much as prog fans talk up their favourite prog singers - and there are some seriously talented ones like Haslam, Gildenlow - it is not the place where you'd expect to be drawn in emotionally by the vocals (regardless of whether the vocals are good or bad). Prog is more about intrigue and ambition and that necessarily means giving lyrics a sidestep sometimes. That is not necessarily a bad thing because instrumentation forms the backbone of great symphonies. But when it comes to prog, people continue to expect of it what they expect of the typical, short rock song format and feel disappointed. As for the quality of prog lyrics, it depends on the opposition you choose. Er, Genesis v/s Scorpions? Jethro Tull v/s ABBA? You can't really prove that prog always has poor lyrics or always has great lyrics because that's over-generalizing.
With that said, Fish writes first rate lyrics. I don't know about you - the OP - but the very line "in the playground of the broken hearts" is unforgettable for me and I don't even relate to or analyze lyrics all that much because I am more interested in the music.
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 10:11 |
Alitare wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
1791 Overture wrote:
Rush and the Moody Blues aren't prog. |
Then neither are Jethro Tull. Yes or Genesis. In fact, prog does not exist. It's a myth. |
Just like the Kennedy assassination. |
If you look very closely at the Zapruder film, there is a guitarist on the grassy knoll next to the guy with the black umbrella.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Alitare
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 10:03 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
1791 Overture wrote:
Rush and the Moody Blues aren't prog. |
Then neither are Jethro Tull. Yes or Genesis. In fact, prog does not exist. It's a myth. |
Just like the Kennedy assassination.
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 06:49 |
1791 Overture wrote:
Rush and the Moody Blues aren't prog. |
Then neither are Jethro Tull. Yes or Genesis. In fact, prog does not exist. It's a myth.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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JS19
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 05:02 |
I think one of the reasons is because we listen to so much music from other countries and languages, the artist feel obliged to write in English, which may not be their first language. Often the lyrics sound a bit contrived and confusing. I don't blame them - I can't exactly write a lyrical masterpiece in French, so I don't expect them to in English.
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1791 Overture
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 03:06 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
Alitare wrote:
NEVER bad?
Or what about that awfully banal 'poetry' from Moody Blues?
Cold hearted orb That rules the night Removes the colours From our sight Red is gray and Yellow white But we decide Which is right And which is an Illusion
Gosh that sure is reminiscent of Tennyson, huh?
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I would suggest that the Moody's "Late Lament" (a stanza of which you quoted above) is fundamentally good poetry, particularly in conjunction with the stirring ending of the album Days of Future Passed. The opening section...
Breathe deep the gathering gloom, Watch lights fade from every room. Bedsitter people look back and lament, Another day's useless energy spent. Impassioned lovers wrestle as one, Lonely man cries for love and has none. New mother picks up and suckles her son, Senior citizens wish they were young.
...is accompanied with a marvelous orchestral arrangement which mirrors the poem. It works wonderfully and is perhaps the high point of a superb album. As far as Tennyson, from a personal standpoint I find much of his work pompous and overblown, with an overwrought melancholy lifted directly from Keats. But then, Tennyson wasn't as bad as Longfellow or Wordsworth, who have been known to torture readers by the canto. |
Rush and the Moody Blues aren't prog. Neither is Styx. 
Edited by 1791 Overture - May 08 2011 at 03:08
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Garden of Dreams
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 00:41 |
My point about twilight zone was not the catchiness but their description of the t.v. series. It is clear that you don't like the fantasy/scifi lyrics but that does not necessarily mean they are bad.
I listed a numerous amount of Rush songs with meaningful lyrics (to me at least). Most specifically "Faithless" which and "Armor & Sword" which I personally identify with. "The Way The Wind Blows" also
Your annoyance with Rush lyrics has only been targeted towards "their pre-1982 albums" which leads me to believe that you don't know the majority of their work. Neil Peart's lyrics are not necessarily moving (most lyrics are not) but they are still relevant and discuss social topics that some at least enjoy.
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