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PA the only site to recognize J-R Fusion as Prog?
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richardh View Drop Down
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Points: 28113 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2024 at 22:46
''Prog rock'' as a term has become much more broader that it used to be in the 70's. Then ELP, Yes, Genesis and Tull were the full on prog bands that could be clearly differentiated. Floyd were not widely regarded as prog and people would have laughed at the suggestion that Supertramp were prog. The psyche bands and J/R fusion bands were their own thing. The 2 most valid categories of prog to me looking at a historical basis are Symphonic prog and Neo Prog. The rest is a mixture of experimental and metal while J/R is largely jazz based (duh!) and has a totally different attitude to me not caring for classical forms of music on which prog is based. The fact it's included as 'prog' doesn't bother me although I am still very puzzled that Steely Dan are put in this category next to RTF and Mahavishnu. And then there is post rock whatever that is Wink
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^ in the meantime, see If you have unwanted code in your post... (CLICK)
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Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

And for the record, PA is not the only website where JRF can be listed as prog. Cool

I had a feeling this was the case. I respect your breadth of experience enough, Mike, to accept your input as truth.

The odd thing about the above fact, then, is that most prog lovers will include Mahavishnu Orchestra and maybe even Return to Forever (and Al Di Meola) as prog artists!


It's kind of a spectrum. When does red stop being red and become another color? There's a transition through various wavelengths. Same goes with music. Mahavishnus are clearly prog rock mixed with jazz. Sun Ra is jazz fusion but not with prog or even rock which is why he's not here. Some of the artists on PA though are questionable. Like Steely Dan for example. That's jazz rock for sure but not really prog rock


(Did I force that color change upon you, Mike?!)


You're a smooth manipulator, you are! LOL

BTW i started the color thing to make it easy to differentiate my comments from that annoying code.

As soon as i hook up my new computer it will probably stop



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Originally posted by AJ Junior AJ Junior wrote:

Having Jazz fusion on this site is a necessity and adds to its diversity in the loose sphere of prog. 
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

And for the record, PA is not the only website where JRF can be listed as prog. Cool
yes Wink
Gibraltar, Prog Lands and ProgGnosis (all defunct sites) listed or reviewed plenty of JR/F bands

All cited Mahavishnu, 11th House or RTForever as "prog", but not stuff like Weather Report. and Mwandishi.

Amazing to hear that Proggnosis is defunct!!  I cannot imagine where i have been putting in hours of work these last 25 years including these last weeks.

As for classifying J-R Fusion  we have a subgenre of Progressive Rock called.. hmm Jazz-Rock!
Using Advance Search - - Under this sub-genre you will find Brian Auger, Chase, Fire Merchants, Il Baricentro and 256 more bands

We also have a sub-genre of Fusion called Jazz-Fusion and there are 541 bands listed here
That would include the 70's pioneers of RTF, Weather Report, Mahavishnu as well as modern artists like Aaron Comess. Endless Season,  Gerald Gradwohl and so many more

Needless to say - -Proggnosis is NOT DEFUNCT.

Regards,
DBSilver
proggnosis.com


Edited by ProggnosisDB - September 21 2024 at 09:08
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Amazing to hear that Proggnosis is defunct!!  I cannot imagine where i have been putting in hours of work these last 25 years including these last weeks.

As for classifying J-R Fusion  we have a subgenre of Progressive Rock called.. hmm Jazz-Rock!
Using Advance Search - - Under this sub-genre you will find Brian Auger, Chase, Fire Merchants, Il Baricentro and 256 more bands

We also have a sub-genre of Fusion called Jazz-Fusion and there are 541 bands listed here
That would include the 70's pioneers of RTF, Weather Report, Mahavishnu as well as modern artists like Aaron Comess. Endless Season,  Gerald Gradwohl and so many more

Needless to say - -Proggnosis is NOT DEFUNCT.

Regards,
DBSilver
proggnosis.com
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Points: 253 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AJ Junior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2024 at 18:45
Having Jazz fusion on this site is a necessity and adds to its diversity in the loose sphere of prog. 
"Together We Stand, Divided We Fall"
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Points: 21206 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2024 at 13:53
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Do you consider J-R Fusion as a form/expression of Prog?

To respond to this question specifically, I think it goes both ways: Some prog artists used Fusion as another form of musical expression, while some Fusion artists also branched out into prog. Even now, decades after Fusion was "invented", there are modern progressive bands like Haken which are incorporating it into their style. 
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Points: 21206 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2024 at 13:39
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

And for the record, PA is not the only website where JRF can be listed as prog. Cool

I had a feeling this was the case. I respect your breadth of experience enough, Mike, to accept your input as truth.

The odd thing about the above fact, then, is that most prog lovers will include Mahavishnu Orchestra and maybe even Return to Forever (and Al Di Meola) as prog artists!


Opinions will be forever divided on whether these artists (or rather, their releases) are "more prog" or "more jazz fusion". On my website one can tag a release as "Prog Fusion", or "Prog-Adjacent Fusion", or "Non-Prog Fusion", or even "Prog Rock/Fusion", or "Prog Jazz/Rock". In the end it does not matter much, it's great music!
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Yes. Progressive Rock and Jazz-Rock/Jazz Fusion are different genres. Is there anyone on planet PA (apart from maybe Moshkito) that would disagree with that? Different, but more often than not, with tons of overlap. Canterbury Scene is also singled out as a separate or different genre. Every thinkable and unthinkable genre out there is. I don't really see the relevance.

If you for instance look at top 100 Jazz-Rock / Jazz Fusion albums all-time on RYM, only 20 of these 100 albums are also tagged as Progressive Rock or one of what RYM consider to be Prog sub-genres:

https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:jazz%2drock,jazz%2dfusion/ 
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

A remark which might be useful:

Your OP looks very fine to me, Drew, but the thread title seems to be rather strange when to begin analyze it from a philosophical / epistemological point of view. Ermm
Not that useful I'm afraid... LOL

Well, anyway, it's also a question of how to understand the word "recognize" if to be quite precize, but I think that it would be better with a title like: "PA the only site to consider J-R Fusion as Prog?"

Also a factor, David, in my naming of the thread was the limited number of characters the Title/Subject box would allow. I'm okay with what I finally settled upon, thank you.
Drew Fisher
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


A remark which might be useful:

Your OP looks very fine to me, Drew, but the thread title seems to be rather strange when to begin analyze it from a philosophical / epistemological point of view. Ermm

That's okay. I didn't think three new threads--or two and a new poll--would have received the same attention and/or traction as this one has. Plus, the "conversations"/exchanges have be kind of fun, n'est-ce pas?
Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

And for the record, PA is not the only website where JRF can be listed as prog. Cool

I had a feeling this was the case. I respect your breadth of experience enough, Mike, to accept your input as truth.

The odd thing about the above fact, then, is that most prog lovers will include Mahavishnu Orchestra and maybe even Return to Forever (and Al Di Meola) as prog artists!


It's kind of a spectrum. When does red stop being red and become another color? There's a transition through various wavelengths. Same goes with music. Mahavishnus are clearly prog rock mixed with jazz. Sun Ra is jazz fusion but not with prog or even rock which is why he's not here. Some of the artists on PA though are questionable. Like Steely Dan for example. That's jazz rock for sure but not really prog rock


(Did I force that color change upon you, Mike?!)
Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/
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I'm glad it's recognized here, I started listening to Jazz in general thanks to PA's Top 100.
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Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

My criteria are easy:

I like it - It's prog
I don't like it - It's not

That's clean talk.
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My criteria are easy:

I like it - It's prog
I don't like it - It's not
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

A remark which might be useful:

Your OP looks very fine to me, Drew, but the thread title seems to be rather strange when to begin analyze it from a philosophical / epistemological point of view. Ermm
Not that useful I'm afraid... LOL

Well, anyway, it's also a question of how to understand the word "recognize" if to be quite precize, but I think that it would be better with a title like: "PA the only site to consider J-R Fusion as Prog?"


Edited by David_D - September 18 2024 at 01:30
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

"PA the only site to recognize J-R Fusion as Prog?"

What I believe to be the biggest and most influential music site in the world, RYM, consider Progressive Rock and Jazz-Rock / Jazz Fusion to be separate genres.
Which is not very relevant, since at RYM (and AP) multiple genres can be assigned to a release. So while these genres may be separate, there are (many) releases which "implement" both of them. Smile

It is very relevant, as even there's some overlap in labelling albums, definitely most of the albums are either tagged as Progressive Rock or Jazz-Rock / Jazz Fusion and NOT both genres.
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


A remark which might be useful:

Your OP looks very fine to me, Drew, but the thread title seems to be rather strange when to begin analyze it from a philosophical / epistemological point of view. Ermm

Not that useful I'm afraid... LOL
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A remark which might be useful:

Your OP looks very fine to me, Drew, but the thread title seems to be rather strange when to begin analyze it from a philosophical / epistemological point of view. Ermm
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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