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FunkyM 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 12 2010
Location: Funkytown
Status: Offline
Points: 134
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 Posted: January 25 2011 at 19:22 |
 lazland wrote:
zravkapt wrote:
I might be crazy, but I think I've read that because of the internet(filesharing, streaming, YouTube, etc.), some smaller artists are selling more copies to people who otherwise would have never heard of them. |
I don't think you are crazy. I have read this in a number of interviews.
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I've heard this as well. I can't speak for others, but I know for a fact that there are a ton of prog artist that I never would have bought albums from if I hadn't found them online because I'd have never known they existed in the first place. Plus, I'd like to think that because prog is such a niche genre, fans would be more likely to pay for the music so the artists can get support to make more music. I have nothing to back that up though. :P
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FunkyM
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 12 2010
Location: Funkytown
Status: Offline
Points: 134
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Posted: January 25 2011 at 19:12 |
TODDLER wrote:
I don't know what goes on today and that's my deal. I've been told by prog vendors that business is booming but then I watched a documentary on prog which shows evidence of prog bands performing at picnics. I am under the assumption that they make decent money at Nearfest but how many bookings do they have before they slide downward to play picnics again? |
I'll always remember going to Bluesfest in 2009 and seeing Van der Graaf Generator play to a crowd that barely broke triple digits. Maybe. But it was still a heck of a show! :) OTOH, last summer Rush drew like 30,000+ people. And the old school Genesis cover band The Musical Box drew a pretty good crowd too. Renaissance and Steve Hackett were also there. Renaissance's crowd wasn't big either, but they were also playing at the same time as the Moody Blues and they had a few weather problems. Hackett was pretty packed though. I still think that just the fact that they actually booked all those prog acts at a non-prog specific music festival is pretty impressive though.
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: January 25 2011 at 18:47 |
thehallway wrote:
I said get rid of the record companies in another post in this thread, and the donation thing.
Anyway the point was...... the fact that the music is free will be enough marketing in itself. Within a few days I could have downloaded every single album on this website (well, maybe not but you get the idea!)...... and so, even if a band doesn't look like the best thing since The Beatles, there's no risk, you can download it anyway and delete it if it's crap. The money comes from touring: which would be massive arenas if there were lots of fans. If the music is good there will be lots of fans. Thus, it would be massive arenas if the music was good. People will pay up to see live music that, at no cost, they fell in love with. Obviously, the system doesn't work if your band is terrible. But that's a good thing right? |
Thats just wishful thinking. Prog is a niche genre and the vast majority of the bands we love here arent going anywhere near an arena regardless of what crazy business modle you care to put up. And the end of the day it all comes down to the fact that it costs money to make and you have to sell to get the money back or it wont take long for there to be no bands at all.
And Lady Gaga and any R n B artist you care to name is a load of rubbish IMO, but that doesnt stop them having loads of fans.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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iluvmarillion
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 09 2010
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 3247
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Posted: January 25 2011 at 16:37 |
NinaHoo wrote:
I donīt want to download music, I wanna see the cover and pictures, read lyrics etc.. old fashioned maybe, I donīt have enough money to buy all music I want, but I do my best to support artist! Spotify and youtube and PA are so good to seek new bands and if it hits me hard -Iīll buy cd/vinyl and see concerts!Would you do work for free-? In Finland you hardly make money from concerts- if not famous enough, you hardlu get any gigs!!.. independent artist/bands can make little money if publish by themselves..
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But your'e going to have to compromise if your'e on a limited budget and your'e wanting to listen to as much music as possible. If you buy the CD direct from the artist's web site you're going to pay about $20 but most of the money goes direct to the artist. You can download the music for a lot less and the artist still gets a decent cut. Take Radiohead's " Rainbows" album - you could have paid as little as $1 to download the music. Radiohead still made a lot of money and all the fans benefited. The reality is that a lot of third parties are hiving off their percentages while the creators of the music gets very little (unless the bands are mega stars). Personally I'm like you - I like to have the physical CD in my possession, but at times I'm willing to download the music, if it means I get the music quicker, the music is otherwise unavailable, or I pay a lot less for it.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17883
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Posted: January 25 2011 at 15:17 |
thehallway wrote:
No need for record companies though..... if the albums are free. Meaning the musicians and their manager get ALL the money from tours and all the side-things, and can handle production costs themselves (if there are any..... digital files are basically free from expense right?). |
I think the biggest lesson is learning that you don't need a record company for anything ... except one ... eventually a distribution company may have to be used, so you can get the CD's to other stores in different places, and this is the case for the bigger artists. But if you can sign a deal with Kmart and send them 6k CD's to their main distribution center and they divide it up between the stores with 5 or 6 CD's each ... what me worry?
The difference is this ... and you learn it quickly ... if you sell 10,000 CD's in 6 months, you ARE going to get calls and people wanting to sign you up for everything from knickers to dishwashers and you have to know when to say no, and make sure that nothing is written down that you and a lawyer are not agreeing to! ... so you do NOT lose the control over your own work! ... the only deal you should sign is for a distribution deal, and you create the CD's and give them the 10K cd's they want and they pay you an X amount for each CD up front! The rest is not your concern, although advertising might be an issue if it is not what you thought about, or wanted ... in order to sell more.
The last line that you refer to, was that we have this idea that it is different here (in a democracy) from any other place (not a democracy) when it comes to "preferences, and in the end it isn't. One is still influenced by the social mechanism and the conformity that it imposes, and often expects (America) people to subscribe to!
Edited by moshkito - January 25 2011 at 15:18
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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thehallway
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 13 2010
Location: Dorset, England
Status: Offline
Points: 1433
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Posted: January 25 2011 at 15:05 |
I said get rid of the record companies in another post in this thread, and the donation thing. Anyway the point was...... the fact that the music is free will be enough marketing in itself. Within a few days I could have downloaded every single album on this website (well, maybe not but you get the idea!)...... and so, even if a band doesn't look like the best thing since The Beatles, there's no risk, you can download it anyway and delete it if it's crap. The money comes from touring: which would be massive arenas if there were lots of fans. If the music is good there will be lots of fans. Thus, it would be massive arenas if the music was good. People will pay up to see live music that, at no cost, they fell in love with. Obviously, the system doesn't work if your band is terrible. But that's a good thing right?
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: January 25 2011 at 11:38 |
thehallway wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
sleeper wrote:
thehallway wrote:
If studio music were legally free, the whole business would boom again. Suddenly, it wouldn't be immoral to download tracks without paying, so more people such as myself would be able to do it, and everyone would be into music again. Obviously, no money to be made from this, however, bands would get far greater publicity from the rapid distribution of their music (it's free!). Therefore their live concerts would sell out, and the demand for tickets would determine the price of tickets. The added bonus is that the price you pay REALLY IS based on how good the band are, not how well they are promoted.
Please, point of the flaws of this because I'm no businessman. But it sounds like it could work. |
That is an incredibly naieve statement.
Increasingly bands are doing everything themselves these days, cutting out record companies all together. Most bands will not make a living out of prog for the simple reason that the audiance isnt big enough, the best hope for most is that CD/download sales and ticket sales will cover the costs of production and touring allowing the band to break even. A few may be able to make enough through CD sales (having a large discography helps here) and other merch plus ticket sales on a carefully planned tour to just about scrape by, but the likes of Dream Theater, Rush, Porcupine Tree, Mastodon, Radiohead and Opeth are about it for bands that can comfortably live making prog music, and notice how only two of them have always been prog bands and didnt come from another genre.
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Kind of like lowering tax rates will generate more tax revenue. The only way to generate more revenue is to cut out those who make money off the music while contributing nothing to it.
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I don't get why he's calling me naive when he's agreeing with me?
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I'm not agreeing with you, it costs money to hire studios (or build your own), producers, engineers, artists and anyone else working with the band. This money usually comes from a label or the band themselves, and then they have to spend money on markating. How do you think they are going to get that money back if they dont sell the CD's. The rapid distrabution idea doesnt work because people wont know about these bands without the marketing, which will probably be limited to just posting on forums and facebook.
You should also remember that a lot of prog fans want that hard copy with the artwork and liner notes, particularly since CD's sound a lot better than mp3's. The idea of giving music away for free doesnt work because it costs money to record in the first place, and bands that do give it away have fans donate towards its recording before hand or work entirely on a donations system (donate as much as you like, when you like), which requires them to hold down a steady job to pay for recording and producing merch as the donations are unlikely to cover all the costs. Its why a lot of bands are so hot on ilegal downloading.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: January 25 2011 at 11:36 |
Toby Driver having a day job tells you something.
Devin Townsend doesn't but does production work on the side.
Chris Poland has a day job (in the music industry, managing a rehearsal space.)
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 25 2011 at 11:28 |
Toby Driver has a huge following here, but works a day job to pay the bills.
Jon Anderson has a huge following here, and doesn't have to worry much about money.
It depends. You can, but it's probably exception more than the rule.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: January 25 2011 at 11:23 |
sigod wrote:
Although none of us in Tinyfish are pro musicians, we still make a sizable amount of cash from CDs, downloads, gigs and merch. Everything we earn is ploughed straight back into the band so none of the us are able to buy luxury cars or loose women (or is that loose cars and luxury women?) on what we make. The upside is that none of us have had to dip into our own pockets to finance the band since 2007 which is encouraging. 
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Thats good to hear. Can I ask, does the band make decent profit on all of this or is it a case of covering all the costs with some change left over?
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: January 25 2011 at 09:41 |
Making a living doing music of any kind has always been hard. Prog is especially hard because it's a narrow niche. I think that electronic media does make it easier to get the word out and get started.
For me, if the music pays for itself that's gravy. Right now it is, sort of. Most of my life, I've been sinking more money into it that comes back.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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sigod
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 17 2004
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 2779
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Posted: January 25 2011 at 08:56 |
thehallway wrote:
I will make a living out of prog.
I have a cunning plan. |
 - Is it so cunning you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel?
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I must remind the right honourable gentleman that a monologue is not a decision.
- Clement Atlee, on Winston Churchill
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thehallway
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 13 2010
Location: Dorset, England
Status: Offline
Points: 1433
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Posted: January 25 2011 at 08:56 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
sleeper wrote:
thehallway wrote:
If studio music were legally free, the whole business would boom again. Suddenly, it wouldn't be immoral to download tracks without paying, so more people such as myself would be able to do it, and everyone would be into music again. Obviously, no money to be made from this, however, bands would get far greater publicity from the rapid distribution of their music (it's free!). Therefore their live concerts would sell out, and the demand for tickets would determine the price of tickets. The added bonus is that the price you pay REALLY IS based on how good the band are, not how well they are promoted.
Please, point of the flaws of this because I'm no businessman. But it sounds like it could work. |
That is an incredibly naieve statement.
Increasingly bands are doing everything themselves these days, cutting out record companies all together. Most bands will not make a living out of prog for the simple reason that the audiance isnt big enough, the best hope for most is that CD/download sales and ticket sales will cover the costs of production and touring allowing the band to break even. A few may be able to make enough through CD sales (having a large discography helps here) and other merch plus ticket sales on a carefully planned tour to just about scrape by, but the likes of Dream Theater, Rush, Porcupine Tree, Mastodon, Radiohead and Opeth are about it for bands that can comfortably live making prog music, and notice how only two of them have always been prog bands and didnt come from another genre.
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Kind of like lowering tax rates will generate more tax revenue. The only way to generate more revenue is to cut out those who make money off the music while contributing nothing to it.
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I don't get why he's calling me naive when he's agreeing with me?
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NinaHoo
Forum Newbie
Joined: December 19 2010
Location: Tampere
Status: Offline
Points: 21
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Posted: January 25 2011 at 08:40 |
I donīt want to download music, I wanna see the cover and pictures, read lyrics etc.. old fashioned maybe, I donīt have enough money to buy all music I want, but I do my best to support artist! Spotify and youtube and PA are so good to seek new bands and if it hits me hard -Iīll buy cd/vinyl and see concerts! Would you do work for free-? In Finland you hardly make money from concerts- if not famous enough, you hardlu get any gigs!!.. independent artist/bands can make little money if publish by themselves..
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sigod
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 17 2004
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 2779
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Posted: January 25 2011 at 08:08 |
Although none of us in Tinyfish are pro musicians, we still make a sizable amount of cash from CDs, downloads, gigs and merch. Everything we earn is ploughed straight back into the band so none of the us are able to buy luxury cars or loose women (or is that loose cars and luxury women?) on what we make. The upside is that none of us have had to dip into our own pockets to finance the band since 2007 which is encouraging.
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I must remind the right honourable gentleman that a monologue is not a decision.
- Clement Atlee, on Winston Churchill
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: January 24 2011 at 19:10 |
sleeper wrote:
thehallway wrote:
If studio music were legally free, the whole business would boom again. Suddenly, it wouldn't be immoral to download tracks without paying, so more people such as myself would be able to do it, and everyone would be into music again. Obviously, no money to be made from this, however, bands would get far greater publicity from the rapid distribution of their music (it's free!). Therefore their live concerts would sell out, and the demand for tickets would determine the price of tickets. The added bonus is that the price you pay REALLY IS based on how good the band are, not how well they are promoted.
Please, point of the flaws of this because I'm no businessman. But it sounds like it could work. |
That is an incredibly naieve statement.
Increasingly bands are doing everything themselves these days, cutting out record companies all together. Most bands will not make a living out of prog for the simple reason that the audiance isnt big enough, the best hope for most is that CD/download sales and ticket sales will cover the costs of production and touring allowing the band to break even. A few may be able to make enough through CD sales (having a large discography helps here) and other merch plus ticket sales on a carefully planned tour to just about scrape by, but the likes of Dream Theater, Rush, Porcupine Tree, Mastodon, Radiohead and Opeth are about it for bands that can comfortably live making prog music, and notice how only two of them have always been prog bands and didnt come from another genre. |
Kind of like lowering tax rates will generate more tax revenue. The only way to generate more revenue is to cut out those who make money off the music while contributing nothing to it.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: January 24 2011 at 18:05 |
thehallway wrote:
If studio music were legally free, the whole business would boom again. Suddenly, it wouldn't be immoral to download tracks without paying, so more people such as myself would be able to do it, and everyone would be into music again. Obviously, no money to be made from this, however, bands would get far greater publicity from the rapid distribution of their music (it's free!). Therefore their live concerts would sell out, and the demand for tickets would determine the price of tickets. The added bonus is that the price you pay REALLY IS based on how good the band are, not how well they are promoted.
Please, point of the flaws of this because I'm no businessman. But it sounds like it could work. |
That is an incredibly naieve statement.
Increasingly bands are doing everything themselves these days, cutting out record companies all together. Most bands will not make a living out of prog for the simple reason that the audiance isnt big enough, the best hope for most is that CD/download sales and ticket sales will cover the costs of production and touring allowing the band to break even. A few may be able to make enough through CD sales (having a large discography helps here) and other merch plus ticket sales on a carefully planned tour to just about scrape by, but the likes of Dream Theater, Rush, Porcupine Tree, Mastodon, Radiohead and Opeth are about it for bands that can comfortably live making prog music, and notice how only two of them have always been prog bands and didnt come from another genre.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: January 24 2011 at 15:25 |
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Bypass the middle men and stick with those who are essential.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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thehallway
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 13 2010
Location: Dorset, England
Status: Offline
Points: 1433
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Posted: January 24 2011 at 14:56 |
moshkito wrote:
thehallway wrote:
If studio music were legally free, the whole business would boom again. Suddenly, it wouldn't be immoral to download tracks without paying, so more people such as myself would be able to do it, and everyone would be into music again. Obviously, no money to be made from this, however, bands would get far greater publicity from the rapid distribution of their music (it's free!). Therefore their live concerts would sell out, and the demand for tickets would determine the price of tickets. The added bonus is that the price you pay REALLY IS based on how good the band are, not how well they are promoted.
Please, point of the flaws of this because I'm no businessman. But it sounds like it could work. |
The only flaw is that it is hard to do something, and in the end, get nothing for it, specially today, in the economics that ... you gotta pay rent, and get a job to pay for it ... and a nickel helps the equation some ... and getting a bit more makes it easier for you to concentrate on the music.
But if there would be no money, I would make things into a socialist (or some kind of "ist") system ... and in the end, those systems also had an issue with "choice" and "determination" of what was right or wrong and shown and presented, which by itself, is no different than any other economic design. |
No need for record companies though..... if the albums are free. Meaning the musicians and their manager get ALL the money from tours and all the side-things, and can handle production costs themselves (if there are any..... digital files are basically free from expense right?). To be honest, I don't really understand your last paragraph.....  
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17928
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Posted: January 24 2011 at 14:45 |
infandous wrote:
Well, for bands with as large a profile as Rush, no doubt touring is profitable. But from what I've been told by "lesser" artists such as Roine Stolt and Andy Tillison (and at least a couple others I can't recall at the moment), touring is pretty much always a loss of money, not a gain. The hope being to get more exposure to get more album and merchandise sales (and, these days, paid downloads). Roine Stolt has said that back during probably their most popular time, early 2000's, the Flower Kings lost about $10,000 each time they toured the USA, less than that in Europe, though even then the best they could hope for was to break even on a tour.
Unless a band can play a LOT of shows (like Umphrey's McGee, for example, who play something like 250 + shows a year) and/or have strong financial backing (like Rush, again) they are going to be lucky to break even on a tour these days. For prog bands without a profile like Rush's, they are not likely to get many shows and will not be able to pull in much money for the ones they do get.
Self producing CD's is actually the most profitable route for many of these bands, and even doing that will not make them enough money to live on (or barely enough to live cheaply).
Take a look at this: http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/charts-articles/chart-alert/cake-scores-lowest-selling-no-1-in-soundscan-1004139369.story
The days of mega selling bands and artists appear to be over, in any case.
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I agree....it was just that to hear someone like a Rush say these things means the ability to make money on a new album is virutually impossible these days. Regardless of the size of your following and backing, bands have to tour to pay the bills......whether any money is left over is a statement at how they manage the business.
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