Can we make a living from prog?
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Topic: Can we make a living from prog?
Posted By: Theriver
Subject: Can we make a living from prog?
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 04:28
| Out of curiosity, do you know if a lot of musicians manages to leave out of prog and how many copies of their albums are sold. i always wondered how may cds bands like Transatlantic, Flower kings, Pendragon....are selling copies |
Replies:
Posted By: TheOppenheimer
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 06:33
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you dont live out of prog, you live FOR the prog.
------------- //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// A veces es cuestión de esperar, y tomarte en silencio. |
Posted By: Prog Geo
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 06:39
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Not so much.I can but I live for prog rock.And especially for extreme prog metal,post rock/metal.
------------- Sonorous Meal show every Sunday at 20:00 (greek time) on http://www.justincaseradio.com |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 06:39
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I know some bands such as Glass Hammer don't make a living from CD sales alone, they have to supplement their earning by hiring out studios etc. Other artists such as Guy Manning and Tinyfish have a full time job as well. |
Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 08:58
+1 ------------- https://aprilmaymarch.bandcamp.com/track/the-badger" rel="nofollow"> 
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TheOppenheimer wrote:Posted By: Anirml
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 09:06
+2 ------------- 
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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 09:16
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I think only a few of the bigger acts can really make sort of a living from their record sales, most bands have to make money by keeping a part-time or full-time job next to music, and having a lot of paid performances. A good example of the latter are Pendragon. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 09:38
+3 part 1 (including a.The Return of +2 b. +3 - 1= what?)
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: cacha71
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 09:40
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I think that for most bands the larger part of their income comes from concert ticket sales rather than CD sales. But whether they can make a living from it is another matter. I suppose it also depends on how well the band is managed and promoted.
------------- http://www.last.fm/group/Progressive+Folk |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 10:01
| Almost everyone has to tour extensively to make any sort of money, and even then I'm sure a lot of "prog" artists can't make ends meet just on music. |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 10:11
| As far as I know, CD sales are around 50% down from the 90s, due to file sharing among people who otherwise would buy the music. Even the big pop and hip-hop artists are suffering and complaining about this, and smaller acts like most prog bands of today, suffer tremendously from this fact, so I don't think selling CDs is a viable way of making a living this days. |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 10:19
| I might be crazy, but I think I've read that because of the internet(filesharing, streaming, YouTube, etc.), some smaller artists are selling more copies to people who otherwise would have never heard of them. |
Posted By: Prog Geo
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 10:20
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You changed the question.So,I will answer again.Absolutely not!
------------- Sonorous Meal show every Sunday at 20:00 (greek time) on http://www.justincaseradio.com |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 11:52
That's a bit harsh but often true. The correct answer is rarely. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Prog Geo
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 11:59
Sure.But I prefer to think the most pessimistic side of things for defense. ------------- Sonorous Meal show every Sunday at 20:00 (greek time) on http://www.justincaseradio.com |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 12:04
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The best form of attack is defence. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Prog Geo
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 12:07
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Yeah!
------------- Sonorous Meal show every Sunday at 20:00 (greek time) on http://www.justincaseradio.com |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 12:21
I don't think you are crazy. I have read this in a number of interviews. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Theriver
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 14:34
| I think prog won a lot with the success of internet. I would have never heard of some bands without websites like PA, youtube, myspace and would have of course never bought their cds. Mainstream bands suffered a lot more of illegal downloading. Prog fans are much more loyal. |
Posted By: Theriver
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 14:35
| Bands of the 90's sold less after the years 2000 because of more rival bands. |
Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 15:38
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I will make a living out of prog.
I have a cunning plan. ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: JD
Date Posted: January 24 2011 at 06:34
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Like many others on this site I imagine, I've worked in the music industry with a 6 year stint as a FOH sound engineer. The sad truth is CD's sales are not a source of any real income for bands. They depend on touring and royalties and to some extent merchandise. I can remember a time when a band released an album and had sales in the tens of thousands in the first weeks or month. Now I read articles that say that even todays most popular artists are having sales of three to five thousand copies in a month and that's good. You can make a living as a working band even without "hits" but it's very hard on the body and soul depending on the career path and touring locations. Many fine musicians end up working at music stores or as teachers to supplement the inherent need to produce music. To those who can live by their music I say ...kudos to you for sure. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: January 24 2011 at 07:56
| I don't know what goes on today and that's my deal. I've been told by prog vendors that business is booming but then I watched a documentary on prog which shows evidence of prog bands performing at picnics. I am under the assumption that they make decent money at Nearfest but how many bookings do they have before they slide downward to play picnics again? |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: January 24 2011 at 08:27
| I recently read a book named "Making Money in the Music Industry", and the author reveals how becoming famous (which happens to only a few and lasts only a few years) is not the key for most musicians, CD sales will hardly make an income, and advises to rely on residency in a specific club, having your band play different types of music under different names, diversifying your talents to recording, teaching, etc, to actually make a decent living within the industry. A very down to earth approach to life and living in an industry which is famous for sucking your life away, for very little reward,. |
Posted By: clarkpegasus4001
Date Posted: January 24 2011 at 09:12
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I can't believe anyone would make a living from cd sales alone. Tony C. |
Posted By: Theriver
Date Posted: January 24 2011 at 09:36
| Bands used to tour to promote new albums. Nowadays they release albums to promote tours. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 24 2011 at 11:41
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No. Prog is a hobby. ------------- 
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: January 24 2011 at 12:20
Nah....that was because of Walter's campaign  ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 24 2011 at 12:28
Either Geddy Lee or Alex said the same thing this past year in an interview, it may have been the CNN spot they did. Album sales barely break even with regard to the production of new album.....there are way too many hands in the pot.
They said touring today is where the money is made, ticket sales, shirts and probably a % of the food and beverage sold at venues goes to the band.
I have no problem with that....I love live shows, especially from the established long standing artists, they have taken the production to an enjoyable level. -------------   
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Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: January 24 2011 at 13:35
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Well, for bands with as large a profile as Rush, no doubt touring is profitable. But from what I've been told by "lesser" artists such as Roine Stolt and Andy Tillison (and at least a couple others I can't recall at the moment), touring is pretty much always a loss of money, not a gain. The hope being to get more exposure to get more album and merchandise sales (and, these days, paid downloads). Roine Stolt has said that back during probably their most popular time, early 2000's, the Flower Kings lost about $10,000 each time they toured the USA, less than that in Europe, though even then the best they could hope for was to break even on a tour. Unless a band can play a LOT of shows (like Umphrey's McGee, for example, who play something like 250 + shows a year) and/or have strong financial backing (like Rush, again) they are going to be lucky to break even on a tour these days. For prog bands without a profile like Rush's, they are not likely to get many shows and will not be able to pull in much money for the ones they do get. Self producing CD's is actually the most profitable route for many of these bands, and even doing that will not make them enough money to live on (or barely enough to live cheaply). Take a look at this: http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/charts-articles/chart-alert/cake-scores-lowest-selling-no-1-in-soundscan-1004139369.story The days of mega selling bands and artists appear to be over, in any case. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 24 2011 at 13:52
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Hi,
I think that any band can make a living off their music, if they are smart good enough to learn one or two little things about it. Knowing an accountant and a student-lawyer, for example, would be a good start and help, and while it is difficult to figure out how to also give that person some money, in the end, the difference between most bands is how good their support system is ... regardless of what kind of music they are playing.
I'm not sure that progressive has anything to do with it, but if the members of the band are not focused on anything else but their music and not have the trust of a friend to help them get better and take it to a different level ... I guess there is always the Red Lion circuit! Managing the finances and the dispensing of materials and goods is not hard, but it takes a little co-ordination and desire too! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: January 24 2011 at 14:10
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If studio music were legally free, the whole business would boom again. Suddenly, it wouldn't be immoral to download tracks without paying, so more people such as myself would be able to do it, and everyone would be into music again. Obviously, no money to be made from this, however, bands would get far greater publicity from the rapid distribution of their music (it's free!). Therefore their live concerts would sell out, and the demand for tickets would determine the price of tickets. The added bonus is that the price you pay REALLY IS based on how good the band are, not how well they are promoted. Please, point of the flaws of this because I'm no businessman. But it sounds like it could work. ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 24 2011 at 14:39
The only flaw is that it is hard to do something, and in the end, get nothing for it, specially today, in the economics that ... you gotta pay rent, and get a job to pay for it ... and a nickel helps the equation some ... and getting a bit more makes it easier for you to concentrate on the music.
But if there would be no money, I would make things into a socialist (or some kind of "ist") system ... and in the end, those systems also had an issue with "choice" and "determination" of what was right or wrong and shown and presented, which by itself, is no different than any other economic design. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 24 2011 at 14:45
I agree....it was just that to hear someone like a Rush say these things means the ability to make money on a new album is virutually impossible these days. Regardless of the size of your following and backing, bands have to tour to pay the bills......whether any money is left over is a statement at how they manage the business. -------------
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Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: January 24 2011 at 14:56
No need for record companies though..... if the albums are free. Meaning the musicians and their manager get ALL the money from tours and all the side-things, and can handle production costs themselves (if there are any..... digital files are basically free from expense right?). To be honest, I don't really understand your last paragraph..... ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 24 2011 at 15:25
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Bypass the middle men and stick with those who are essential.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: January 24 2011 at 18:05
That is an incredibly naieve statement.
Increasingly bands are doing everything themselves these days, cutting out record companies all together. Most bands will not make a living out of prog for the simple reason that the audiance isnt big enough, the best hope for most is that CD/download sales and ticket sales will cover the costs of production and touring allowing the band to break even. A few may be able to make enough through CD sales (having a large discography helps here) and other merch plus ticket sales on a carefully planned tour to just about scrape by, but the likes of Dream Theater, Rush, Porcupine Tree, Mastodon, Radiohead and Opeth are about it for bands that can comfortably live making prog music, and notice how only two of them have always been prog bands and didnt come from another genre. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 24 2011 at 19:10
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: sigod
Date Posted: January 25 2011 at 08:08
Although none of us in Tinyfish are pro musicians, we still make a sizable amount of cash from CDs, downloads, gigs and merch. Everything we earn is ploughed straight back into the band so none of the us are able to buy luxury cars or loose women (or is that loose cars and luxury women?) on what we make. The upside is that none of us have had to dip into our own pockets to finance the band since 2007 which is encouraging. 
------------- I must remind the right honourable gentleman that a monologue is not a decision. - Clement Atlee, on Winston Churchill |
Posted By: NinaHoo
Date Posted: January 25 2011 at 08:40
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I don´t want to download music, I wanna see the cover and pictures, read lyrics etc.. old fashioned maybe, I don´t have enough money to buy all music I want, but I do my best to support artist! Spotify and youtube and PA are so good to seek new bands and if it hits me hard -I´ll buy cd/vinyl and see concerts! Would you do work for free-? In Finland you hardly make money from concerts- if not famous enough, you hardlu get any gigs!!.. independent artist/bands can make little money if publish by themselves.. |
Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: January 25 2011 at 08:56
I don't get why he's calling me naive when he's agreeing with me? ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: sigod
Date Posted: January 25 2011 at 08:56
 - Is it so cunning you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel?------------- I must remind the right honourable gentleman that a monologue is not a decision. - Clement Atlee, on Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: January 25 2011 at 09:41
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Making a living doing music of any kind has always been hard. Prog is especially hard because it's a narrow niche. I think that electronic media does make it easier to get the word out and get started.
For me, if the music pays for itself that's gravy. Right now it is, sort of. Most of my life, I've been sinking more money into it that comes back. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: January 25 2011 at 11:23
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 25 2011 at 11:28
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Toby Driver has a huge following here, but works a day job to pay the bills. Jon Anderson has a huge following here, and doesn't have to worry much about money. It depends. You can, but it's probably exception more than the rule. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: January 25 2011 at 11:36
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Toby Driver having a day job tells you something.
Devin Townsend doesn't but does production work on the side.
Chris Poland has a day job (in the music industry, managing a rehearsal space.)
------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: January 25 2011 at 11:38
You should also remember that a lot of prog fans want that hard copy with the artwork and liner notes, particularly since CD's sound a lot better than mp3's. The idea of giving music away for free doesnt work because it costs money to record in the first place, and bands that do give it away have fans donate towards its recording before hand or work entirely on a donations system (donate as much as you like, when you like), which requires them to hold down a steady job to pay for recording and producing merch as the donations are unlikely to cover all the costs. Its why a lot of bands are so hot on ilegal downloading. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: January 25 2011 at 15:05
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I said get rid of the record companies in another post in this thread, and the donation thing. Anyway the point was...... the fact that the music is free will be enough marketing in itself. Within a few days I could have downloaded every single album on this website (well, maybe not but you get the idea!)...... and so, even if a band doesn't look like the best thing since The Beatles, there's no risk, you can download it anyway and delete it if it's crap. The money comes from touring: which would be massive arenas if there were lots of fans. If the music is good there will be lots of fans. Thus, it would be massive arenas if the music was good. People will pay up to see live music that, at no cost, they fell in love with. Obviously, the system doesn't work if your band is terrible. But that's a good thing right? ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 25 2011 at 15:17
I think the biggest lesson is learning that you don't need a record company for anything ... except one ... eventually a distribution company may have to be used, so you can get the CD's to other stores in different places, and this is the case for the bigger artists. But if you can sign a deal with Kmart and send them 6k CD's to their main distribution center and they divide it up between the stores with 5 or 6 CD's each ... what me worry?
The difference is this ... and you learn it quickly ... if you sell 10,000 CD's in 6 months, you ARE going to get calls and people wanting to sign you up for everything from knickers to dishwashers and you have to know when to say no, and make sure that nothing is written down that you and a lawyer are not agreeing to! ... so you do NOT lose the control over your own work! ... the only deal you should sign is for a distribution deal, and you create the CD's and give them the 10K cd's they want and they pay you an X amount for each CD up front! The rest is not your concern, although advertising might be an issue if it is not what you thought about, or wanted ... in order to sell more.
The last line that you refer to, was that we have this idea that it is different here (in a democracy) from any other place (not a democracy) when it comes to "preferences, and in the end it isn't. One is still influenced by the social mechanism and the conformity that it imposes, and often expects (America) people to subscribe to! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: iluvmarillion
Date Posted: January 25 2011 at 16:37
But your'e going to have to compromise if your'e on a limited budget and your'e wanting to listen to as much music as possible. If you buy the CD direct from the artist's web site you're going to pay about $20 but most of the money goes direct to the artist. You can download the music for a lot less and the artist still gets a decent cut. Take Radiohead's " Rainbows" album - you could have paid as little as $1 to download the music. Radiohead still made a lot of money and all the fans benefited. The reality is that a lot of third parties are hiving off their percentages while the creators of the music gets very little (unless the bands are mega stars). Personally I'm like you - I like to have the physical CD in my possession, but at times I'm willing to download the music, if it means I get the music quicker, the music is otherwise unavailable, or I pay a lot less for it.
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: January 25 2011 at 18:47
And Lady Gaga and any R n B artist you care to name is a load of rubbish IMO, but that doesnt stop them having loads of fans. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: FunkyM
Date Posted: January 25 2011 at 19:12
I'll always remember going to Bluesfest in 2009 and seeing Van der Graaf Generator play to a crowd that barely broke triple digits. Maybe. But it was still a heck of a show! :) OTOH, last summer Rush drew like 30,000+ people. And the old school Genesis cover band The Musical Box drew a pretty good crowd too. Renaissance and Steve Hackett were also there. Renaissance's crowd wasn't big either, but they were also playing at the same time as the Moody Blues and they had a few weather problems. Hackett was pretty packed though. I still think that just the fact that they actually booked all those prog acts at a non-prog specific music festival is pretty impressive though. |
Posted By: FunkyM
Date Posted: January 25 2011 at 19:22
I've heard this as well. I can't speak for others, but I know for a fact that there are a ton of prog artist that I never would have bought albums from if I hadn't found them online because I'd have never known they existed in the first place. Plus, I'd like to think that because prog is such a niche genre, fans would be more likely to pay for the music so the artists can get support to make more music. I have nothing to back that up though. :P |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 26 2011 at 00:10
And on the rare occasion you do find a prog album in a store (which at least where I'm from IS really rare), you won't pass over it because you have been wanting it in your collection. The amount of information available on the internet about prog rock bands definitely makes a positive difference because prog rock enjoys very little publicity, whether through official channels or by word of mouth (word about a new metal album in the market spreads far and wide because metal fans are much more networked). Without the internet, they would have to depend heavily on existing fans to sustain themselves and new bands would find it very tough to find a sizable audience. |
Posted By: cacha71
Date Posted: January 26 2011 at 05:22
I think that some bands aren't interested in selling CDs. Case study: Over the last month or so I've been trying to get hold of a CD by a little known band who maintain a website in order to give info about upcoming gigs, etc and also presumably to sell CDs. I sent an email, and received no reply, then phoned and was informed that if I left my address the CD would be posted to me so I sent another email and received no reply. I left a polite message on the website enquiring whether the CD was still available because I had as yet received no reply, another person contacted me and informed me that she would contact the band and they would definitely send me the CD. I'm still waiting...  Perhaps I'm wrong about this, but I feel that an injustice has been done to me. Despite the fact that the album is available by streaming, I want to have the CD. Conclusion? I think that distributing and selling CDs is a very important part of forming a loyal fanbase, despite the fact that it may not be their chief source of income. Bands shouldn't just rely on ticket sales for income and if they want to reach a wider audience they need to get their music out to people and I don't just mean a few tracks on MySpace, there are still plenty of people who want to show their appreciation by buying CDs or going to concerts. So CDs should be made available to those who wish to buy them. Unfortunately it's not always practical or possible for all of us to attend concerts. If I want to go to a concert, I have to travel about 200 kilometers. ------------- http://www.last.fm/group/Progressive+Folk |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 26 2011 at 15:26
This brings up another issue ... that could make it tough.
We're in the advertising age, and visuals are important, and one of the things that you might run into is a band that is into its music, and placing something like it on Ucrap or Hisface, or Herface ... or even worse, in places where people send a lot of their music for someone else to collect your $9.95 per month and go use it on their nightly meals!
At this point a band that does not have a live show, or anyone around them that would put together some visuals, is going to suffer, as you and I are used to some kind of visuals ... and this is one of the reasons I usually say that our biggest issue in a board like this, is that we have lost a lot of the ability to close our eyes, and just flow with the music ... because we are spoiled by that something that is not exactly what the music is about in the first place.
I can handle Lady Gaga saying boys and boys and boys and her being half nude (surprised it's not men to be honest with you!), but that would not do for the majority of groups doing a lot more serious and adventurous work at all.
In the end, the only saving grace there is, is the one thing that is the most important of all in these cases ... the musician has to be totally dedicated to his/her work and his/her art and not give a damn if something does not sell today, and continue on ... and those people rarely fail, even if they do not sell millions, they know inside the secret and what it takes ... never quit!
I'm not sure anyone that has "made" it, has done so just because of the money ... well, we could discuss Ozzie, or Metallica, but that's another story! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: January 26 2011 at 15:29
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For the 1 in a million kind of guy, sure. For you and everyone you know, nope. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 26 2011 at 15:41
Incorrect.
You have to decide if you want to measure a pound of gold, or a pound of cotton, or a pound of love!
The rest is all shis-kabob, and you know it!
The best learning I ever had was David Ossman of the Firesign Theater, one time commenting about a float on that Santa Barbara Fiesta Parade, that had a lady walking past a door into a room with a guy and a big cigar ... and one of the guys in the radio station asked ... how do I make it? Who do I have to know ... and David, said something awesome ... "I know who you have to know ... " ... "Me" ... and he wasn't talking about himself ... he was talking about you knowing you enough to not quit on yourself ...
You decide! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: January 28 2011 at 06:26
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Interesting article on the BBC today about "has pop gone posh?". One of the answers is that there is no money in music these days so people have to have lots of money to be able to afford a music career in the first place.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9373000/9373158.stm" rel="nofollow - http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9373000/9373158.stm
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: January 28 2011 at 14:52
I assume Chris gets a decent ongoing royalty payout from the time he put in with Megadeth.
What are Kayo Dot's album sales? Toby must have a flexible gig if he can take a month off for a tour. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: January 28 2011 at 14:54
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Oh, re: Pendragon---Clive does make a living off music, but that includes the bands he's in and the production stuff with Thin Ice Studios. At least that what's I understood. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 28 2011 at 15:35
There is a lot of that in America, with a different subtlety ... people have this illusion that something is BIG, or GOOD, if you happen to see it at Kmart, or Best Buy, or on your way to work in a billboard!
The other side is a perception issue ... "Artists like Tinie Tempah, Tinchy Stryder, Professor Green are scoring regular chart hits with tracks that as Nightingale says relate to "nasty things happening on dark streets". ... which tells you that there is a separation of "class" going on ... and a lot of the "street" music was always considered "uneducated" and "crap", but no one is sitting here in America saying anything like that about RAP ... because they would get ripped apart and ...
While I don't feel that "educated" has been the most motivated of the music folks, in the end, the "street" music has been the one that has added the most to it ... with its emotion, and excitement, and in the end ... they helped define new things in the process of music, singing and other arts ...
It has always been like that ... the "upper class" never thinks that a lower class does anything, or has anything ... and since the MEDIA is owned and operated by that same upper class, it is not surprising, and should never be to any of us, that they say things like that ... it will be a cold day in hell that a Free Press will get the respect and strength that the "accepted" newspapers do ...
In the end, this is another "revolution" in the making. The 60's were pretty much another one of those breaks from rich morons ... that brought the arts up from the streets ... and you might check the list of "worst business decisions ever made" and both the Beatles and Rolling Stones are on that top 5 (or 10 not sure) list ... and the quotes are gems. And you are getting the same thing said in this article -- just a few years later.
There is a saying ... that the more things change, the less they change!
The main problem is the MEDIA and us allowing them to market and mold things to their benefit ... not anything else ... and my greatest hope was that the Intenet was going to level that arena some, but commercial interests are making sure that they can kill it with advertising and anything else to make sure you do not know what choice to make ... except the "popular" ones ... simply because they mentioned it or American Idol showed it!
In the end, we're still slaves to the rich, working for the rich, and a society defined by the rich!
Nothing has changed in thousands of years!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: AllP0werToSlaves
Date Posted: January 28 2011 at 16:08
I'm glad someone has enough awareness of the media/marketing to understand this! I feel that this is the number one deception of all; just because Best Buy sells your disc, people assume you're a millionaire musician driving a Lamborghini to go pick up your drugs and hookers lol.
Thank you for making one of the most genuine and thought provoking posts that I've read on these forums. Too many people argue about what's wrong and what's better, but very few take the time (hmmm...I wonder why that is...?) to find the root cause and work their way down from there. I agree, and in a sense since the media controls the perception of a people, they can thus directly bias said people. All you need to do is look around you; people can't make decisions on their own. Everything from the best car, TV, sports, video games, technology etc is all preached through the media. You are given the illusion of choice because all choices are controlled by those who run the media. Choices independent of the system are rarely if ever spoken about, because said choices usually have no benefit for the system itself. And you're absolutely right, nothing has changed, all that changes are the names and faces. Tyranny is accepted as leadership, freedom is exchanged for security, and deception is fed to the 9-5ers day in and out on the news. A power monopoly if there ever was one, and an oligarchy/plutocracy at it's core, "democracy" has never been so b*****dized! Last time I checked, true democracy was unbiased and didn't cater to those of differential advantage (those with money).
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Posted By: kglenz
Date Posted: January 30 2011 at 21:35
| Once in a while it feels good to nibble at the fast food of tunes like "love shack" - great song! But when I want a meal that will fulfill me, be good for me, made with an art - I'll find a Rush, Chopin, Oscar Peterson. I might binge on junk food - but I'll always go back to where I find a sound that really speaks to me & brings out the best of who I am - like all truly great art. I'm sure too few of so many talented people will get the recognition or financial deserved accolades. But that's always been the case with art. People have one thing in common, they rarely realize or venerate those in their midst that truly do good with something as valuable as music verses prostituting such an art form for some cheesy one hit wonder. Django Reinhardt wasn't rich, early jazz musicians nearly starved to death & were brutalized, many classical composers were considered evil men & died penniless. (let us not forget that these forms of music were the popular forms of their day as well) I think Rush's songs like "spirit of the radio" & "closer to the heart" speak volumes to what one can expect from trying to create something meaningful in our vulgar medium of rock 'en roll. |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: February 01 2011 at 00:33
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I'm not in the music business but we can make some assumptions and try to make some guesses:
Let's take a band of 5 members and let's consider that, by "making a living" we mean that each of them expects to get a net income of 2,000 euro per month, this is not a lot but many people make with less, I believe the official average net salary in Europe is around 1,300 euro. Included in this they must be able to buy their instruments, pay their rehearsal place etc.
Typically in Europe, if you want a net income of 100 your gross income must be around 167 (40% of the gross goes away as taxes, pension funding, social security etc), so the 5 members together should generate a gross income of 200,000 euro per year.
It is often said the the royalty for the band of 1 CD sales is around 0.5 euro, this in the scheme where the record company pays the recording costs, mastering, printing, distribution etc. If the band does a lot of this by themselves they may increase the royalty to 1 euro or more, but they have to pay those costs so let's be conservative and take the 0.5 euro option.
This means the band should sell 400,000 CDs per year if all their income should come from CD sales alone.
I have no idea how many CDs bands like Pendragon sell per year but I very much doubt they reach 400,000.
Rush's Hold Your Fire reached Gold (500,000 copies sold) in Nov '87 just 2 months after being released, but of course Rush is a supergroup.
Of course once the band has a significant discography, any of the albums can still sell, all of them accumulate so it is easier to generate more income the more albums you have in the market.
It is said that Rush's estimated accumulated album sales exceeds the 40 million, and obviously the figure per year must have been increasing as they got more popular and had more albums in the market, so their current yearly sales is probably well over 2 million copies per year.
How much "smaller" are Pendragon compared to Rush? I don't know but make your guess, surely less than 1/5th.
Another way of looking at it, Europe + USA population together is around 1 billion (meaning 1000 million). Of course there are prog fans all over the world but being conservative again let's take only Europe + US. Of these, 60% are in the age band between 15 and 60 years, so the age when you are most likely to be a potential music buyer. This makes a potential customer base of 600 million.
In order to sell 400,000 CDs per year, the band would need 6.7 people for each 10,000 (0.067% of the "potential customer base") to buy 1 CD of the band every year.
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Posted By: zachfive
Date Posted: February 01 2011 at 02:40
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I was talking to a co-worker of mine tonight and he was saying that he met Kurdt Vanderhoof. We work in Hoquiam, WA but I live in Kurdt's hometown Aberdeen and am I fan of both Metal Church and Presto Ballet. I had seen this thread when it had started but had nothing to contribute, but when I heard that someone I knew had talked to someone within the prog realm I inquired as to weather or not Kurdt does something on the side other than music. His response was something like "He said he doesn't know anything other than music... " Kind of jokingly. But he did mentioned that he said "... touring in Europe you can make money, in a couple of days you can play 3 or 4 different countries instead of 1-2 states" I don't know if anybody had mentioned this before as I did not back read. It was just some interesting conversation of some local prog celeb I though may be relevant...
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: February 01 2011 at 10:44
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On the other hand the big advantage for prog bands is that even if it's a minority genre it stays in time, while most mainstream albums peak and die very quickly.
Adam And The Ants were a big hit in the early '80's but I would be surprised if anyone bought an album from them in the last 15 years, while prog fans around the world are still buying copies of the albums of Banco, Bacamarte or Focus.
Sometimes it's better small sales but steadily maintained than a short big boom and then nothing anymore.
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: February 10 2011 at 23:07
The year Vapor Trails was released, Billboard reported units sold as just over 100,000. And considering Rush accomplished the seemingly impossible and are more popular now than they were 20 years ago, 40,000,000 albums sold sounds about right. Amazing considering how many people still think of them as "the band that recorded 'Tom Sawyer'"! ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: February 10 2011 at 23:09
Sorry, I meant to say 100,000 units its first week of release. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: February 11 2011 at 02:50
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The cult of billionaires have produced this kind of problem, where even musicians that have millions of fans cannot make a living from their music alone. It's sad that many antique malls have closed down around here in Seattle over the years. They were really a wonderful little museum of culture and the past. You can't trust people to do the right thing in these kinds of cases, it seems you always have to be vigilant in educating others. If people don't support small business, it's going to be a McDonaldville for 90% of the people. ------------- -- Robert Pearson Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net |
Posted By: MrEdifus
Date Posted: February 14 2011 at 09:18
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Of course prog bands can make a living playing prog music. Dream Theater and Porcupine Tree are fine examples.
------------- 
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: February 14 2011 at 12:21
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^Clealry you havnt been reading this thread, or you would know that for the vast majority of the bands the answer is no, the best they can hope for is recouping the cost of recording/production and touring with maybe a small profit to put back into the next album. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: February 14 2011 at 13:12
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I met Bob Fripp at a Chicagoland record store about 1979....he was touring with his Frippertronics rig and gave us a great show, and then signed LPs. This was in the "Exposure" era, not too long before "League of Gentlemen." Bob said that it would be more profitable for him to tour & sell records out of the back of a truck vs. going through the "normal" distribution channels of big labels, record stores etc. I thought he was nuts at the time, BUT times are showing just how far-sighted he was!! Virtually any concert includes kiosks where you can buy CDs, and often you can meet the musicians and have them sign the CDs. I met Michael Shenker this way at a UFO gig in Chicago about 1992 or so. I bought one of each CD he was selling & he signed them all! Nice guy! Other gigs selling CDs included Dream Theater & their concert mates Zappa Plays Zappa, Big Elf and Scale the Summit; Porcupine Tree; Yes etc.etc. It would be cool if you could buy the recording of the gig as soon as it was finished, but bands like to edit that stuff before they release it. I don't care for downloads for prog, the music undergoes too much compression & loss of quality. CD are the way to go. Best thing you can do is seek out your favorite bands in concert and go to see them! I think that is how they make the most money now. Nobody is getting rich in the music business it seems.
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: February 14 2011 at 13:28
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Well Bob got dinked around just like just about everyone back in the 70s unless your manager was Peter Grant. Within a few years every live Crimson performance ever recorded will be available. I have never minded buying CDs at gigs. I don't care for downloads because firstly I haven't a clue how to do it and secondly because it robs the artist of their bread & butter. I got an ipod for Christmas and haven't even taken it out of the package. It was given to me by a cousin as a joke. I think the only wayto really make a bundle in the music industry is to become the next Bieber or Lady Ga Ga because the general public are sheep. Bah Bah . Could you imagine Bieber struggling through Relayer or tryig to do the multi octave yodelling in Hocus Pocus. ------------- |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 14 2011 at 13:31
It's not really that bad here, but the tendency to always be on the side of the biggest and greatest and most known, gets to me now and then, and I tend to give the guys here a hard time on it. The biggest problem is that many of them are a bit on the side of the "media" already ... know it all, understand it all, keeper of the definitions and the sub-genre's ... and in the end, they are doing the same thing.
I'm not anti-social per se, but sometimes the "group thinking", just isn't for me. In the end, what we get is people going around saying that one is not politically correct, which is another way of saying that the Constitution is full of sh*t that no one believes, otherwise the media would not be stealing the spotlight! Specially when they go around telling people they can not donate to their favorite political candidates ... the Supreme Court should have nailed that one right away ... but they are old, asleep, and sometimes too worried about how to kill Roe vs Wade, than they are the laws they are requested to uphold!
The system here is not bad ... but the mentality for some is out of town, even if someone thinks I am the one out of line ... but I really do not think that most of these people understand the "revolution" at the time that helped define "progressive" music in the next 5 years ...
It's the craziest thing ... I guess people here think that "Revolution" and "Revolution #9" don't mean sh*t! ... and it is the voice of those that changed history, in music as well ... but music was not the only art involved.
Until they do, the definition of "progressive" will be hollow at best and the sub-genre's all being just a way of saying that something sounds like this or like that as another commercial exercise to help sell the music ... and while I have no issue with the sales, I do from the concept that ... it stops being about the music, and becomes about what I can gain from it. At that point it is no longer "progressive" ... it is "commercial", or "industrial" ...
The issue is that too much of the terminology, doesn't mean sh*t to anyone! And the lyrics and the works and the depth is trivialized by some idealistic musical concept that never existed. It could even be incidental! And worse ... typical imperialism sometimes ... one area is better than the others and given more credit, even when others had the same thing happening in other arts, that were just as important and progressive, but different -- and this is being totally ignored for the most part!
The world is flat, it doesn't exist! ... and my name is Galileo ... don't they wish! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 14 2011 at 13:56
The message is spread the word. The medium is the internet. The method is list everything. The process is let the people decide. Subgenres are there for people to use or ignore - with or without them the music would still exist and it would still be as good or as bad as it ever was, we change nothing, but from time to time someone will unearth an opal or find a prize nugget burried amid the piles of rock we list, sort, categorise and catalogue, we don't define anything, the music is the definition, we just listen. Open your own ears and make your own choices, we ain't selling or buying. ------------- What? |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: February 14 2011 at 14:21
Exactly!! Lady GaGa is actually a very good pianist, and if she wanted to, she'd have the talent to go prog. But, she won't, the money is in selling i-Tune downloads, lunchboxes, Halloween costumes etc. I really think that the amazing era of 1970's progressive music is gone forever, never to return. Kids these days are more into plastic toy guitars like "Rock Band," instead of hours of woodshedding to learn real guitar licks. The Brits and others in the 1970's were schooled in piano, pipe organ, violin/cello, woodwinds etc. as a matter of their education. When art-school guys like Peter Gabriel hooked up with classically-trained guys like Rutherford and Banks, all hell broke loose. I don't see this happening again in our lifetimes, but correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe progressive music will come out of other cultures/countries? Fareed Haque is 1/2 Pakistani, 1/2 Chilean, and this upbringing comes through in his guitar playing & composition. Amazing stuff!
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: February 14 2011 at 14:43
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The 1970s were freaking amazing. Glad I lived it even though I was young I was tuned in to bands like Focus, Yes, King Crimson & Gentle Giant by the age of 14 after my Elvis phase. What I don't understand either is the kid's who do play want to immitate the latest metal guitar shred. Few are into or want to learn about guys like Django Reinhardt, Wes Mongomery, Talo Farrow, Joe Pass, Charlie Christian and take it from there just like guys like McLaughlin, Coryell, Holdsworth or Jan Akkerman did and developed their own unique styles. These days you go into the music store and just hear kids shredding away and it sounds redundant. They're all trying to be the next Zak Wylde. ------------- |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: February 14 2011 at 16:58
Yeah, it's freakin' awful! At least they don't butcher "Stairway to Heaven" in the guitar stores like they did in my era! It has to do with time invested & difficulty. It's HARD to get through all that music theory, but it's the only way. I struggle with it, and wish I had piano lessons when very small! Modern artists don't even mess with lead guitar anymore, it's all stylized rap vocals with sound effects. Instruments are just along for the ride. Who is the modern day equivalent of Bob Fripp? No one! You named the right guys, VB! Those jazz cats started it all! Guys like Fripp were "classical jazz" guys, and could earn a few quid in the 60's playing dance band stuff in England. Not so much anymore. |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: February 14 2011 at 17:28
I believe the turning point was Eddie Van Halen. When he came out, he was a revolution and his sound was new and distinct. Sadly, everybody wants to have his sound since then. Before Van Halen, just by listening you could tell Fripp from Hackett, Barre from Howe, Blackmore from Page, Gilmour from Latimer, etc.. Nowadays, eveybody sounds quite the same, with very little difference, and as you mentioned, it turns redundant and honestly, after a while is quite boring.
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: February 14 2011 at 18:10
Maybe! However, years ago, I read an interview with John Wetton where he said that Asia was the most cassette-copied band (apparently due to the success of the first LP, with its "Heat of the Moment" single). So, they've been there before! I try to show loyalty by attending as many shows as I can afford. I tend to buy a lot of used CDs from Ebay or used stores, so the artists don't make anything on that traffic. Music is a tough career, I took a pass on it years ago and don't regret it (much!!!
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 14 2011 at 20:36
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Only if we confine it into CAFOs... Oops so, sorry, that's pigs not progs.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: February 14 2011 at 23:19
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Anyone can make a living from prog. Whether it gets them paid or not is a different story. ------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385 |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 12:56
Things have changed.
In those days, you had to travel, because there was no media that advertised or showed your work ... no one knew you and you had to make a name for yourself via word of mouth a lot more than you do today.
Today you have the Internet, and you can setup sales and show things online, and touring is a thing of the past ... for the most part, the quality and the crap out there in concert these days, is only good for pop music and not more serious music.
Any group doing difficult music, does not have to tour in my book. It simply is not necessary. Djam Karet is my best example, that a band can do just fine and not have to hit the skid row and hope to find an audience. Theyie website and everything else takes care of itself.
It's a new day, and a new age ... and someone thinking they have to hit the road, is almost a joke these days ... you don't! While I am not against it, in a way seeing YES tour yet again, is just the saddest thing I have ever seen ... it's like hearing Mick Jagger sing Brown Sugar again ... and next year YES will be in the Super Bowl, right? ... it's about the only big band left!
The large groups is an exception. Because most of them can get into bigger venues that can make the money for them and the people putting on the show ... but anyone else, and people starting out? ... internet and that's that ... besides, you would never get me to play in 80% of all those clubs in Portland ... it's the worst I have ever seen ... even the Red Lion has better equipment! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 13:54
I remember buying new albums particularily jazz albums there was a sticker on the plastic saying that home recording was killing music. Back in the seventies I absolutely HAD to have the album. If I couldn't find it I would settle for a cassette recording off a friend but would keep hunting for the album. I had to have alternate covers as well. I would even buy compilations just to have a different cover even though I had all the music on other albums. I think a lot of guys and girls who play in prog bands nowadays have a sideline that capitalizes on their involvement with their respective bands in or out of the industry but are a greater source of stable income. I might be wrong but I can't see some of these new " prog " bands etching out a living soley from being a member of a particular band. Unless you're Bieber. ------------- |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 17:09
The internet makes a huge difference and there were heaps of artists last year who were thanking us for their reviews as they were gaining more recognition then their own promotional tools! It is free pretty much and people do take the reviews seriously - if 50 people love an album it has to be worth something!
I saw on ET today that Bieber is touring a huge concert and it is sickening. Manufactured teeny pop is the death of the industry.
Prog artists cannot survive on CDs due to the download phase, but the touring of shows has to make money. The famous prog bands make money but how did they get to that point? They have been around for years and have etched out a legendary backlog of albums that are highly revered, such as Rush, Yes, Spock's Beard...
But do Gazpacho make money? what about Glass Hammer? More locally for me, what about Karnivool? One would suspect there is money coming in but it must be a slog trying to continue. The Anthrax guitarist said in an interview, I will never forget, it takes a lot of work to actually continue a band let alone make CDs, tour and promote, the actual act of trying to stay together as a band is more difficult than anyone could imagine. ------------- 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 17:49
Yes, and we must be careful of that we don't become puppets in that game.
Sorry, but no. This just simply doesn't hold water. Manufacturted teeny pop has been around since forever and has a rightful place in the music industry. If those manufactured artists didn't tour the promotors wouldn't fill the vacant spot with a more deserving non-Manufactured artist - it simply isn't going to happen. The audiences for those gigs are two completely different groups of people - one is willing to spend a small fortune seeing their idol play some stadium gig while the other can't be motivated to get off their plump backsides.
The same is true of the record labels - they put cash into teeny artists because they know the teeny audience will give them a return on their investment. That audience isn't going to switch from Bieber to Phideaux just because some record label exec invests in heavy promotion for Xavier and his band.
This is the big problem and the real kicker for unknown bands is "pay to play" - not only do they not make money touring, in some case it costs them money to get onto a tour.
I'll wager that none of those bands make money. From their cut of the door money they have to pay the soundman, roadies & security, then there is the cost of transport (truck hire and fuel) and food & drink, then maybe hotel rooms for something like 10 people. ------------- What? |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 18:34
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A sad & personal story of mine has to do with Starcastle, who evolved out of the local music scene of Champaign, Illinois USA (University of Illinois campus). Starcastle started out as a cover band, and eventually evolved into a Yes-inspired prog band with some serious chops! The release of their first LP was cause for HUGE celebration on campus! My chums and I used to go & hang out with the band between sets, and we grew especially close to Herb Schildt, the very fine keyboardist for the band. One of my friends & I bought a bottle of champagne to give to Herb to congratulate him and the band upon their record release.....when we met him at the local venue, we noticed that the band was very much downscaled.....Herb told us, in quiet tones, that the band had suffered a terrible accident whilst on tour, and one of the guitarists (Steve Hagler) had suffered a broken back! Herb's beloved Hammond B-3 had been smashed to bits. He wept when we gave him the bottle of champagne, and the liner notes indicate how much fan support helped the band to move onwards. Anyway, the band managed to pull together to record more LPs, but none had the creative drive & spark of the first one. That single accident took the steam out of the band, it seems. Herb went on to write books about computer programming (his first love), vocalist Terry Lutrell sold used cars, and I lost track of the others (amazing bassist Gary Strater died of pancreatic cancer in 2004). I had a chance to go pro many times & said no, it's a very rough road out there. You CAN make a few dimes recording & selling music via the Web, but generally, folks want to see you live.
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 18:57
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 19:03
You say that none of the bands Gazpacho, Glass Hammer or Karnivool for example would make money due to the cost of transport (truck hire and fuel) and food & drink, then maybe hotel rooms for something like 10 people.
This is where it gets frustrating for a band I believe. Theres no money in it so you cant make a living unless you are super popular like Rush. All the reunion bands are making money off their old material - I speak of those who were once popular and have rejoined the circuit to tour their old albums and songs. They are living off the success of the past glories. I have no problem with that. But many are doing it now like some kind of bandwagon. They are filling stadiums but not needing to produce new albums or promote heavily. -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 19:15
Those bands fill stadiums because people want to see them, and people want to hear the old stuff that made them famous, If http://www.metro.co.uk/music/851498-bon-jovi-are-highest-earning-live-act-in-2010" rel="nofollow - Jon Bon Jovi can gross $130,000,000 as his own tribute band then good for him. The people paying to see him are the same ones who bought 'Slippery When Wet' - they are not the same people who will buy Gazpacho's 'Missa Atropos' or attended the festival where 'A Night at Loreley' was recorded.
------------- What? |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 19:33
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Posted By: SongJohn
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 20:56
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Interesting discussion....Can we make a living from prog? Well, not all prog is the same right? What if Yes was a new group...and CTTE was just released 4 months ago? I'd definitely jump on it! ------------- www.instrumentrodeo.yolasite.com |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 21:40
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 23:42
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[/QUOTE]
So have you played live without promoting a CD or other work? I thought CD sales would triple at a live concert. People get excited about the music and buy CDs impulsively. I was at a Pink Floyd Tribute Show and the amount of CDs being sold was phenomenal. Not even the real band! At Alice Cooper concert they run out of CDs before the show ended. The foyer merchandise stand was empty, even the T shirts were sold out.[/QUOTE]
I'm a professional environmental scientist who has chosen to pursue the craft of music strictly as a hobby. I've turned down numerous entreaties to join different bands because of the time commitment & often, the chemistry wasn't there. Live gigs were with other's bands. I was the "Tony Levin of Tulsa, Oklahoma USA" in my youth!! My gig with CAVU (Lon Jones, a Craftie, formed this world-music band) performed to thousands at Tulsa's New Music Festival. I met cats like Michael Hedges at shows like that. An amazing time, Tulsa was a hotbed for very progressive music & nobody knew it!! This was in 1988, long before CDs were being sold at gigs. I enjoy pushing myself playing Yes, King Crimson etc. on both bass and guitar. It's a fun intellectual exercise, nothing more. Also, there are FAR better on the instrument, although I'm not bad & would improve with 8 hour/day practice (it takes at least that level to rise to the Chris Squire level). I know local Chicago musicians who eat my lunch in the jazz-rock fusion realm!! Amazing guys like "Kick the Cat." They are Brand X reborn.
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Posted By: Conor Fynes
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 03:22
| Unless you're a big name, you generally have to supplement your income with a job or career... That doesn't just apply to prog, that applies to music in general. |
Posted By: AllP0werToSlaves
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 09:39
| ...Unless you're full time and play in multiple bands five or more times a week, and that's if those bands are actually making money. I know plenty of people who do this and don't work a day job; I'd personally love to be one of them! |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 09:53
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Before I go on with some points related to this discussion I have top say this : That little Bieber freak makes me sick to my stomach. What kind of upbringing did he have? I can't believe he comes from Stratford, Ontario.My father taught us to read and appreciate books. He taught us to do math, encouraged us to play sports. He taught me how to play chess. Took me fishing. All the normal things. I just want ask one question. Who the f**k pays for this trash? I guess the same people who support Coyote face Céline Dion. OK count to ten Ian. Deep breaths. Pastel colours. Pastoral scenes. Valium 10. I have no problem with these old bands playing the old material because first off bands like Curved Air, Renaissance, The Strawbs, Babe Ruth, Amon Dul II etc. who are still touring have all paid their dues. And isn't that what the fans want to hear? Even more successful bands like Rush, Hawkwind & Uriah Heep play the oldies. That Canadian guy who sings with Heep is just as good or even better than David Byron or John Lawton ( who is still touring as well ). Symphony orchestras and classical ensembles play music that is centuries old so why not prog bands? All the more power to them. They're not going to be around forever. ------------- |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 10:31
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General thoughts based on all of the above: a) it is tough to make a full-time living playing ANY music, and prog is particularly challenging! Many starting bands do stuff like play covers to help sell beer at bars (how Starcastle started out), play weddings, etc. Imagine CTTE at a wedding? b) Prog has ALWAYS had to compete with "popular tastes"! It amazes me how popular prog was in the early 1970's, when singles like "Roundabout," "Hocus Pocus," "In The Beginning," and "Small Beginnings" had heavy and constant airplay. Prog has had moments since, with songs like "Owner of a Lonely Heart," "Heat of the Moment," and other attempts to grab the pop label. c) Much like other genres (bebop, Gypsy, etc) prog seems to be largely relegated as a fringe musical form, with its most popular period being the early-mid 1970's. Indeed, many of these bands have largely morphed into tribute bands of themselves, with Yes being the most repugnant (to me) example. I'd prefer to see a REAL tribute band, such as Canada's "Musical Box," UK's "Fragile" or other folks who work hard to master the original music as written. It's a tough business, none of the bands I worked with or met went on to any stardom, although all were quite outstanding. Ever heard of "The Marquis" from Chicago? Didn't think so. "Davis Import"? Same. On & on. I really respect the guys who hang in there for years! Porcupine Tree, Dream Theater, and many others come to mind. It's worth supporting these bands as much as possible vs. file-sharing ripoffs. See them live while you can. I'm torn about seeing Yes live in a few months, I don't think I would like it.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 10:40
But Rush have been putting out material. I don't know if they have plans for a new album and/or when it's due but Snakes and Arrows is not so long ago when you consider how long, say, Symphony X go between releases. Magma too and I don't think they fill stadiums anyway. Hackett has been prolific. Renaissance are planning a new album. It's mainly Yes and Genesis who cash in on their legacy. And given how big the LZ reunion was, I have no objection to that, especially considering even the big prog rock bands don't have a whole slew of critics and magazines to feed their name down your throat until you take cognizance of their music. And with some exceptions, prog musicians generally remain sharp and in touch with their craft so it's good we have a choice not to suffer aging 'rockstars' playing rock and roll. |