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cstack3 
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
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 Posted: February 14 2011 at 13:12 |
I met Bob Fripp at a Chicagoland record store about 1979....he was touring with his Frippertronics rig and gave us a great show, and then signed LPs. This was in the "Exposure" era, not too long before "League of Gentlemen."
Bob said that it would be more profitable for him to tour & sell records out of the back of a truck vs. going through the "normal" distribution channels of big labels, record stores etc. I thought he was nuts at the time, BUT times are showing just how far-sighted he was!!
Virtually any concert includes kiosks where you can buy CDs, and often you can meet the musicians and have them sign the CDs. I met Michael Shenker this way at a UFO gig in Chicago about 1992 or so. I bought one of each CD he was selling & he signed them all! Nice guy!
Other gigs selling CDs included Dream Theater & their concert mates Zappa Plays Zappa, Big Elf and Scale the Summit; Porcupine Tree; Yes etc.etc.
It would be cool if you could buy the recording of the gig as soon as it was finished, but bands like to edit that stuff before they release it.
I don't care for downloads for prog, the music undergoes too much compression & loss of quality. CD are the way to go.
Best thing you can do is seek out your favorite bands in concert and go to see them! I think that is how they make the most money now. Nobody is getting rich in the music business it seems.
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: February 14 2011 at 12:21 |
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^Clealry you havnt been reading this thread, or you would know that for the vast majority of the bands the answer is no, the best they can hope for is recouping the cost of recording/production and touring with maybe a small profit to put back into the next album.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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MrEdifus
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Joined: July 23 2008
Location: VA USA
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Points: 1263
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Posted: February 14 2011 at 09:18 |
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Of course prog bands can make a living playing prog music. Dream Theater and Porcupine Tree are fine examples.
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brainstormer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Status: Offline
Points: 887
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Posted: February 11 2011 at 02:50 |
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The cult of billionaires have produced this kind of problem, where even musicians that have
millions of fans cannot make a living from their music alone. It's sad that many antique malls have
closed down around here in Seattle over the years. They were really a wonderful little museum of
culture and the past. You can't trust people to do the right thing in these kinds of cases, it seems you
always have to be vigilant in educating others.
If people don't support small business, it's going to be a McDonaldville for 90% of the people.
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--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net
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verslibre
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
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Points: 18058
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Posted: February 10 2011 at 23:09 |
 verslibre wrote:
Gerinski wrote:
I have no idea how many CDs bands like Pendragon sell per year but I very much doubt they reach 400,000.
Rush's Hold Your Fire reached Gold (500,000 copies sold) in Nov '87 just 2 months after being released, but of course Rush is a supergroup. |
The year Vapor Trails was released, Billboard reported units sold as just over 100,000. And considering Rush accomplished the seemingly impossible and are more popular now than they were 20 years ago, 40,000,000 albums sold sounds about right. Amazing considering how many people still think of them as "the band that recorded 'Tom Sawyer'"! |
Sorry, I meant to say 100,000 units its first week of release.
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verslibre
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
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Points: 18058
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Posted: February 10 2011 at 23:07 |
Gerinski wrote:
I have no idea how many CDs bands like Pendragon sell per year but I very much doubt they reach 400,000.
Rush's Hold Your Fire reached Gold (500,000 copies sold) in Nov '87 just 2 months after being released, but of course Rush is a supergroup. |
The year Vapor Trails was released, Billboard reported units sold as just over 100,000. And considering Rush accomplished the seemingly impossible and are more popular now than they were 20 years ago, 40,000,000 albums sold sounds about right. Amazing considering how many people still think of them as "the band that recorded 'Tom Sawyer'"!
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
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Posted: February 01 2011 at 10:44 |
On the other hand the big advantage for prog bands is that even if it's a minority genre it stays in time, while most mainstream albums peak and die very quickly.
Adam And The Ants were a big hit in the early '80's but I would be surprised if anyone bought an album from them in the last 15 years, while prog fans around the world are still buying copies of the albums of Banco, Bacamarte or Focus.
Sometimes it's better small sales but steadily maintained than a short big boom and then nothing anymore.
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zachfive
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 13 2005
Location: Kitsap WA
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Points: 770
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Posted: February 01 2011 at 02:40 |
I was talking to a co-worker of mine tonight and he was saying that he met Kurdt Vanderhoof. We work in Hoquiam, WA but I live in Kurdt's hometown Aberdeen and am I fan of both Metal Church and Presto Ballet. I had seen this thread when it had started but had nothing to contribute, but when I heard that someone I knew had talked to someone within the prog realm I inquired as to weather or not Kurdt does something on the side other than music. His response was something like "He said he doesn't know anything other than music... " Kind of jokingly. But he did mentioned that he said "... touring in Europe you can make money, in a couple of days you can play 3 or 4 different countries instead of 1-2 states"
I don't know if anybody had mentioned this before as I did not back read. It was just some interesting conversation of some local prog celeb I though may be relevant...
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
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Points: 5154
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Posted: February 01 2011 at 00:33 |
I'm not in the music business but we can make some assumptions and try to make some guesses:
Let's take a band of 5 members and let's consider that, by "making a living" we mean that each of them expects to get a net income of 2,000 euro per month, this is not a lot but many people make with less, I believe the official average net salary in Europe is around 1,300 euro. Included in this they must be able to buy their instruments, pay their rehearsal place etc.
Typically in Europe, if you want a net income of 100 your gross income must be around 167 (40% of the gross goes away as taxes, pension funding, social security etc), so the 5 members together should generate a gross income of 200,000 euro per year.
It is often said the the royalty for the band of 1 CD sales is around 0.5 euro, this in the scheme where the record company pays the recording costs, mastering, printing, distribution etc. If the band does a lot of this by themselves they may increase the royalty to 1 euro or more, but they have to pay those costs so let's be conservative and take the 0.5 euro option.
This means the band should sell 400,000 CDs per year if all their income should come from CD sales alone.
I have no idea how many CDs bands like Pendragon sell per year but I very much doubt they reach 400,000.
Rush's Hold Your Fire reached Gold (500,000 copies sold) in Nov '87 just 2 months after being released, but of course Rush is a supergroup.
Of course once the band has a significant discography, any of the albums can still sell, all of them accumulate so it is easier to generate more income the more albums you have in the market.
It is said that Rush's estimated accumulated album sales exceeds the 40 million, and obviously the figure per year must have been increasing as they got more popular and had more albums in the market, so their current yearly sales is probably well over 2 million copies per year.
How much "smaller" are Pendragon compared to Rush? I don't know but make your guess, surely less than 1/5th.
Another way of looking at it, Europe + USA population together is around 1 billion (meaning 1000 million). Of course there are prog fans all over the world but being conservative again let's take only Europe + US. Of these, 60% are in the age band between 15 and 60 years, so the age when you are most likely to be a potential music buyer. This makes a potential customer base of 600 million.
In order to sell 400,000 CDs per year, the band would need 6.7 people for each 10,000 (0.067% of the "potential customer base") to buy 1 CD of the band every year.
Edited by Gerinski - February 01 2011 at 02:39
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kglenz
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Joined: November 28 2010
Location: Mpls, MN, USA
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Points: 39
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Posted: January 30 2011 at 21:35 |
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Once in a while it feels good to nibble at the fast food of tunes like "love shack" - great song! But when I want a meal that will fulfill me, be good for me, made with an art - I'll find a Rush, Chopin, Oscar Peterson. I might binge on junk food - but I'll always go back to where I find a sound that really speaks to me & brings out the best of who I am - like all truly great art. I'm sure too few of so many talented people will get the recognition or financial deserved accolades. But that's always been the case with art. People have one thing in common, they rarely realize or venerate those in their midst that truly do good with something as valuable as music verses prostituting such an art form for some cheesy one hit wonder. Django Reinhardt wasn't rich, early jazz musicians nearly starved to death & were brutalized, many classical composers were considered evil men & died penniless. (let us not forget that these forms of music were the popular forms of their day as well) I think Rush's songs like "spirit of the radio" & "closer to the heart" speak volumes to what one can expect from trying to create something meaningful in our vulgar medium of rock 'en roll.
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AllP0werToSlaves
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 29 2009
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Points: 249
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Posted: January 28 2011 at 16:08 |
moshkito wrote:
There is a lot of that in America, with a different subtlety ... people have this illusion that something is BIG, or GOOD, if you happen to see it at Kmart, or Best Buy, or on your way to work in a billboard! |
I'm glad someone has enough awareness of the media/marketing to understand this! I feel that this is the number one deception of all; just because Best Buy sells your disc, people assume you're a millionaire musician driving a Lamborghini to go pick up your drugs and hookers lol.
moshkito wrote:
It has always been like that ... the "upper class" never thinks that a lower class does anything, or has anything ... and since the MEDIA is owned and operated by that same upper class, it is not surprising, and should never be to any of us, that they say things like that ... it will be a cold day in hell that a Free Press will get the respect and strength that the "accepted" newspapers do ...
In the end, this is another "revolution" in the making. The 60's were pretty much another one of those breaks from rich morons ... that brought the arts up from the streets ... and you might check the list of "worst business decisions ever made" and both the Beatles and Rolling Stones are on that top 5 (or 10 not sure) list ... and the quotes are gems. And you are getting the same thing said in this article -- just a few years later.
There is a saying ... that the more things change, the less they change!
The main problem is the MEDIA and us allowing them to market and mold things to their benefit ... not anything else ... and my greatest hope was that the Intenet was going to level that arena some, but commercial interests are making sure that they can kill it with advertising and anything else to make sure you do not know what choice to make ... except the "popular" ones ... simply because they mentioned it or American Idol showed it!
In the end, we're still slaves to the rich, working for the rich, and a society defined by the rich!
Nothing has changed in thousands of years!
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Thank you for making one of the most genuine and thought provoking posts that I've read on these forums. Too many people argue about what's wrong and what's better, but very few take the time (hmmm...I wonder why that is...?) to find the root cause and work their way down from there. I agree, and in a sense since the media controls the perception of a people, they can thus directly bias said people. All you need to do is look around you; people can't make decisions on their own. Everything from the best car, TV, sports, video games, technology etc is all preached through the media. You are given the illusion of choice because all choices are controlled by those who run the media. Choices independent of the system are rarely if ever spoken about, because said choices usually have no benefit for the system itself.
And you're absolutely right, nothing has changed, all that changes are the names and faces. Tyranny is accepted as leadership, freedom is exchanged for security, and deception is fed to the 9-5ers day in and out on the news. A power monopoly if there ever was one, and an oligarchy/plutocracy at it's core, "democracy" has never been so b*****dized! Last time I checked, true democracy was unbiased and didn't cater to those of differential advantage (those with money).
Edited by AllP0werToSlaves - January 28 2011 at 16:18
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17883
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Posted: January 28 2011 at 15:35 |
chopper wrote:
Interesting article on the BBC today about "has pop gone posh?". One of the answers is that there is no money in music these days so people have to have lots of money to be able to afford a music career in the first place.
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There is a lot of that in America, with a different subtlety ... people have this illusion that something is BIG, or GOOD, if you happen to see it at Kmart, or Best Buy, or on your way to work in a billboard!
The other side is a perception issue ... "Artists like Tinie Tempah, Tinchy Stryder, Professor Green are scoring regular chart hits with tracks that as Nightingale says relate to "nasty things happening on dark streets". ... which tells you that there is a separation of "class" going on ... and a lot of the "street" music was always considered "uneducated" and "crap", but no one is sitting here in America saying anything like that about RAP ... because they would get ripped apart and ...
While I don't feel that "educated" has been the most motivated of the music folks, in the end, the "street" music has been the one that has added the most to it ... with its emotion, and excitement, and in the end ... they helped define new things in the process of music, singing and other arts ...
It has always been like that ... the "upper class" never thinks that a lower class does anything, or has anything ... and since the MEDIA is owned and operated by that same upper class, it is not surprising, and should never be to any of us, that they say things like that ... it will be a cold day in hell that a Free Press will get the respect and strength that the "accepted" newspapers do ...
In the end, this is another "revolution" in the making. The 60's were pretty much another one of those breaks from rich morons ... that brought the arts up from the streets ... and you might check the list of "worst business decisions ever made" and both the Beatles and Rolling Stones are on that top 5 (or 10 not sure) list ... and the quotes are gems. And you are getting the same thing said in this article -- just a few years later.
There is a saying ... that the more things change, the less they change!
The main problem is the MEDIA and us allowing them to market and mold things to their benefit ... not anything else ... and my greatest hope was that the Intenet was going to level that arena some, but commercial interests are making sure that they can kill it with advertising and anything else to make sure you do not know what choice to make ... except the "popular" ones ... simply because they mentioned it or American Idol showed it!
In the end, we're still slaves to the rich, working for the rich, and a society defined by the rich!
Nothing has changed in thousands of years!
Edited by moshkito - January 28 2011 at 15:38
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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verslibre
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 18058
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Posted: January 28 2011 at 14:54 |
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Oh, re: Pendragon---Clive does make a living off music, but that includes the bands he's in and the production stuff with Thin Ice Studios. At least that what's I understood.
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verslibre
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 18058
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Posted: January 28 2011 at 14:52 |
Negoba wrote:
Toby Driver having a day job tells you something.
Devin Townsend doesn't but does production work on the side.
Chris Poland has a day job (in the music industry, managing a rehearsal space.) |
I assume Chris gets a decent ongoing royalty payout from the time he put in with Megadeth.
What are Kayo Dot's album sales? Toby must have a flexible gig if he can take a month off for a tour.
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chopper
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
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Posted: January 28 2011 at 06:26 |
Interesting article on the BBC today about "has pop gone posh?". One of the answers is that there is no money in music these days so people have to have lots of money to be able to afford a music career in the first place.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17883
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Posted: January 26 2011 at 15:41 |
stonebeard wrote:
For the 1 in a million kind of guy, sure.
For you and everyone you know, nope. |
Incorrect.
You have to decide if you want to measure a pound of gold, or a pound of cotton, or a pound of love!
The rest is all shis-kabob, and you know it!
The best learning I ever had was David Ossman of the Firesign Theater, one time commenting about a float on that Santa Barbara Fiesta Parade, that had a lady walking past a door into a room with a guy and a big cigar ... and one of the guys in the radio station asked ... how do I make it? Who do I have to know ... and David, said something awesome ... "I know who you have to know ... " ... "Me" ... and he wasn't talking about himself ... he was talking about you knowing you enough to not quit on yourself ...
You decide!
Edited by moshkito - January 26 2011 at 15:45
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: January 26 2011 at 15:29 |
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For the 1 in a million kind of guy, sure.
For you and everyone you know, nope.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17883
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Posted: January 26 2011 at 15:26 |
cacha71 wrote:
.... on ticket sales for income and if they want to reach a wider audience they need to get their music out to people and I don't just mean a few tracks on MySpace, there are still plenty of people who want to show their appreciation by buying CDs or going to concerts. So CDs should be made available to those who wish to buy them. Unfortunately it's not always practical or possible for all of us to attend concerts. If I want to go to a concert, I have to travel about 200 kilometers.
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This brings up another issue ... that could make it tough.
We're in the advertising age, and visuals are important, and one of the things that you might run into is a band that is into its music, and placing something like it on Ucrap or Hisface, or Herface ... or even worse, in places where people send a lot of their music for someone else to collect your $9.95 per month and go use it on their nightly meals!
At this point a band that does not have a live show, or anyone around them that would put together some visuals, is going to suffer, as you and I are used to some kind of visuals ... and this is one of the reasons I usually say that our biggest issue in a board like this, is that we have lost a lot of the ability to close our eyes, and just flow with the music ... because we are spoiled by that something that is not exactly what the music is about in the first place.
I can handle Lady Gaga saying boys and boys and boys and her being half nude (surprised it's not men to be honest with you!), but that would not do for the majority of groups doing a lot more serious and adventurous work at all.
In the end, the only saving grace there is, is the one thing that is the most important of all in these cases ... the musician has to be totally dedicated to his/her work and his/her art and not give a damn if something does not sell today, and continue on ... and those people rarely fail, even if they do not sell millions, they know inside the secret and what it takes ... never quit!
I'm not sure anyone that has "made" it, has done so just because of the money ... well, we could discuss Ozzie, or Metallica, but that's another story!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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cacha71
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 31 2007
Location: Planet Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 326
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Posted: January 26 2011 at 05:22 |
I think that some bands aren't interested in selling CDs. Case study: Over the last month or so I've been trying to get hold of a CD by a little known band who maintain a website in order to give info about upcoming gigs, etc and also presumably to sell CDs. I sent an email, and received no reply, then phoned and was informed that if I left my address the CD would be posted to me so I sent another email and received no reply. I left a polite message on the website enquiring whether the CD was still available because I had as yet received no reply, another person contacted me and informed me that she would contact the band and they would definitely send me the CD. I'm still waiting...  Perhaps I'm wrong about this, but I feel that an injustice has been done to me. Despite the fact that the album is available by streaming, I want to have the CD. Conclusion? I think that distributing and selling CDs is a very important part of forming a loyal fanbase, despite the fact that it may not be their chief source of income. Bands shouldn't just rely on ticket sales for income and if they want to reach a wider audience they need to get their music out to people and I don't just mean a few tracks on MySpace, there are still plenty of people who want to show their appreciation by buying CDs or going to concerts. So CDs should be made available to those who wish to buy them. Unfortunately it's not always practical or possible for all of us to attend concerts. If I want to go to a concert, I have to travel about 200 kilometers.
Edited by cacha71 - January 26 2011 at 05:23
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http://www.last.fm/group/Progressive+Folk
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: January 26 2011 at 00:10 |
FunkyM wrote:
lazland wrote:
zravkapt wrote:
I might be crazy, but I think I've read that because of the internet(filesharing, streaming, YouTube, etc.), some smaller artists are selling more copies to people who otherwise would have never heard of them. |
I don't think you are crazy. I have read this in a number of interviews.
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I've heard this as well. I can't speak for others, but I know for a fact that there are a ton of prog artist that I never would have bought albums from if I hadn't found them online because I'd have never known they existed in the first place.
Plus, I'd like to think that because prog is such a niche genre, fans would be more likely to pay for the music so the artists can get support to make more music. I have nothing to back that up though. :P
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And on the rare occasion you do find a prog album in a store (which at least where I'm from IS really rare), you won't pass over it because you have been wanting it in your collection. The amount of information available on the internet about prog rock bands definitely makes a positive difference because prog rock enjoys very little publicity, whether through official channels or by word of mouth (word about a new metal album in the market spreads far and wide because metal fans are much more networked). Without the internet, they would have to depend heavily on existing fans to sustain themselves and new bands would find it very tough to find a sizable audience.
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