Tori Amos-Deserves to be in Prograchives - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: November 02 2008 at 18:41

tszirmay wrote:

labelling is libelling, liebling! Let Tori be...... Prog, frog, dog, sog, log, cog..... who cares.....

The vast majority who are members and visit a site dedicated to Prog music and those who left countless hours gere working for love to Prog....We care.

Iván

Peter

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Posted: November 02 2008 at 18:11

Now, I honestly couldn't care less if Ms Amos is listed here or not, but for the record (and so as not to appear too much the grumpy curmudgeon), I do have one of her albums, and though I rarely play it, I will say that I find find Amos' approach to music to be at least as above average as many another artist already listed here.

Of course, if included, she'll lead to growing calls for Bjork, Joanna Newsom, Victoria Williams, and many another of such individualist, eclectic feminine musical ilk. Wait and see....

^ Maybe some of those are already here... not that I care. Is Laurie Anderson here yet?

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

tszirmay

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Posted: November 02 2008 at 18:08

labelling is libelling, liebling! Let Tori be...... Prog, frog, dog, sog, log, cog..... who cares.....

I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.

Peter

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Posted: November 02 2008 at 17:58

My responses are in BLUE.

russellk wrote:

Wooo, someone's not happy.

More frustrated than unhappy. Bored with such constant topics really, I guess. Other than that (and a bit of lower back pain today -- plus my son broke the computer desk

), life is good.

No, I don't mean 'good' when I say 'prog'. I have more non-prog in my collection than prog, and plenty of it is good.

Well, me too. I applied my brush too broadly, I'll admit, but I think that for many others here, prog does basically equate to "above average" in complexity or weirdness (for lack of a better term), and thus, to them, good -- or "better,' if you like.

'Music Has the Right to Children' is good, for example, and it is not prog. I bet I'm not the only one in the world who thinks this way.

I don't know that band, but I find early AC/DC to be very good, but they're obviously beyond the scope of what any sane person here, even now, would call 'prog." As for "prog related" (the most nebulous non-category here), I still say that ALL music (especially all rock) is related to prog rock.

I'm fascinated by arguments about music.

I'm decidedly not -- at least, not after almost five years of them

I learn stuff about music and about people and about myself.

I don't think I do anymore or maybe it's more a case of not caring to. as for people, I know that people very, very rarely can change anyone else's mind on an internet forum. as for myself, i think that at 48 i know myself fairly well already -- I certainly know I don't care much about categorizing music, or what others think about the music I like 9or don't like). it's not that I'm arrogant -- it's just that it's WAY down on my list of things to worry about, or to devote much thought or mental energy toward.

Not sick of any of those things yet. When I am I'll give it a rest until I'm not sick of them any more.

I think that maybe I'm a bit of an odd man out in remaining here, after saying almost all I care to about "prog," and in remaining long since finding PLENTY enough new artists to keep me going. I think many former regulars here must have come and gone for just those reasons. Still, one of my best real-life friends is here (he lives very far away from me), and I do find wit, humour, general civility and intelligence here (mostly in the non-music topics which interest me most). Thus I remain....

The only thing that annoys me are blanket statements made with no justification. In effect, the argument goes: they're prog/not prog because I say so.

Yeah that annoys me too -- but I find I'm increasingly annoyed by the sheer vagueness of the term "prog," the endless circular arguing which such a vague, subjective term engenders, and by those who post as if "progressive" were a known, clearly-delineated "genre." It's not!

Thanks for reading, & replying.

Now, do you want to talk about something less controversial? Politics, religion or abortion, perhaps?

Edited by Peter - November 02 2008 at 18:21

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

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Posted: November 02 2008 at 17:15

Peter wrote:

Ultimately, I think many die-hard prog fans simply like to argue about music.

absolutely, I'd probably stop coming here if there wasn't at least one good argument each day

russellk

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Posted: November 02 2008 at 16:26

Peter wrote:

Is there anyone else who is getting just a little bit tired of all this? Dead

Am I the only one who thinks 'prog' and "progressive' are lousy, outdated, hopelessly-subjective and controversial ways to categorize music?

Am I alone in finding categorizing music in general to often be highly subjective, & ultimately pointless to argue about?

Am I alone in caring less and less about which artists are listed here or not?

Am I alone in being frustrated with reviews which essentially say "not prog enough to be here," and thus give the album a skewed, unfairly low rating on that nebulous basis?

I think if I were to have a "progressive rock" site, I'd probably limit it to "classic" progressive rock, with no albums from past 1977... Nah -- people would still argue constantly about old rock stuff. I guess I'd just have an all-music-type site, file artists alphabetically, and leave it up to individual reviewers to pin "genres" or "sounds like' comparisons on the albums, as they wished.

Ultimately, I think many die-hard prog fans simply like to argue about music. I think many of us are perfectionists, and used to not compromising with our musical tastes. We know what we like, and each person knows he or she is right. Now, gather thousands of such strong-minded, uncompromising, "serious about serious music" folks together, let them all have input, and what do you get? A post 'tower of Babel"- type situation -- everyone talking about their personal vision of 'prog", but no one understands what anyone else means by "prog."

I suppose this is interesting and even "fun" to many, but it increasingly frustrates and alienates me. I find I'm mostly here for the laughs these days, and the non-music related topics. I'm sick of arguing about music, reading arguments about music, and whether artists fit into some undefined 'prog" category (or group of categories) which simply isn't a defined category.

Admit it -- you basically mean above average, and thus"good" when you say prog, don't you?

It NEVER ends!

Wooo, someone's not happy.

No, I don't mean 'good' when I say 'prog'. I have more non-prog in my collection than prog, and plenty of it is good. 'Music Has the Right to Children' is good, for example, and it is not prog. I bet I'm not the only one in the world who thinks this way.

I'm fascinated by arguments about music. I learn stuff about music and about people and about myself. Not sick of any of those things yet. When I am I'll give it a rest until I'm not sick of them any more.

The only thing that annoys me are blanket statements made with no justification. In effect, the argument goes: they're prog/not prog because I say so.

Peter

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Posted: November 02 2008 at 16:03

Hey Micky you're so fine... you're so fine you blow my mind...hey Micky!

...

Edited by Peter - November 02 2008 at 18:26

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

Peter

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Posted: November 02 2008 at 15:55

Is there anyone else who is getting just a little bit tired of all this? Dead

Am I the only one who thinks 'prog' and "progressive' are lousy, outdated, hopelessly-subjective and controversial ways to categorize music?

Am I alone in finding categorizing music in general to often be highly subjective, & ultimately pointless to argue about?

Am I alone in caring less and less about which artists are listed here or not?

Am I alone in being frustrated with reviews which essentially say "not prog enough to be here," and thus give the album a skewed, unfairly low rating on that nebulous basis?

Admit it -- you basically mean above average, and thus"good" when you say prog, don't you?

It NEVER ends!

Edited by Peter - November 02 2008 at 16:11

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

Windhawk

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Posted: November 02 2008 at 15:30

Kotro wrote:

Tory Amos will have a thumbs up from me as soon as Happy Rhodes joins Kate Bush in Prog-Related. PA needs more chicks.

Hmm, maybe I should suggest Phantom Blue to prog metal then. Better haul in the Runaways while we're at it - perhaps Joan Jett and Lita Ford too ;-)

Edited by Windhawk - November 02 2008 at 15:30

Websites I work with:

http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com

My profile on Mixcloud:
https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: November 02 2008 at 15:27

Mediaeval Babebes are admitted, I've been too lazy to make the bio

But I forgot The Spice girls, four or five by the price of one.

Iván

Kotro

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Posted: November 02 2008 at 14:57

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Yes, we need more chicks, lets add Maddona, Britney and Celine Dion.

Iván

And Mediæval Bæbes too!

Bigger on the inside.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: November 02 2008 at 14:21

Yes, we need more chicks, lets add Maddona, Britney and Celine Dion.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 02 2008 at 14:34

Kotro

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Posted: November 02 2008 at 14:16

Tory Amos will have a thumbs up from me as soon as Happy Rhodes joins Kate Bush in Prog-Related. PA needs more chicks.

Bigger on the inside.

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Posted: November 02 2008 at 14:10

UMUR wrote:

I´ll have to correct you there Ivan. Not Prog ROCK. Prog music. ( both metal, rock, avant garde, jazz and whatever other prog related genre that is included here on PA). I think that´s important to note. That´s why I think the name Prog Archives is such a well chosen name and yes I see that it says Your ultimate prog ROCK resource on the logo as well, but as genres like prog related and crossover is now a part of PA I think we should all respect that there will sometimes be added something we don´t feel should be here, but others ( the majority) do.

But it'¡s a PROG ROCK RESOUEC, want it or not, the other categories are an exception to the general rule.

Despite that, each genre has it's characteristics and guiedlines, Prog Related says_:

Prog Related is the category that groups bands and artists that:

- Without being 100% Prog, received clear MUSICAL influence of this genre, OR Not the case of TA

- Are widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community, OR Not remotely the case of TA

- Blend characteristics of Progressive Rock with mainstream elements creating a final product that despite not being part of the genre is evident that are close to Prog.Not the case of TA either

Tori Amos fits nowhere ther, less when it says:

We specify the word MUSICAL because simple performance of a determined instrument in a Prog or mainstream band is not justification enough to include an artist, no matter how virtuoso he/she may be, Prog Archives has to evaluate their compositional work because the music is what determines the characteristics of a band or an artist.

So her performane in piano and vocals MEAN NOTHING for an induction.

And to finish it:

Prog Related bands are not considered part of the genre but they have contributed in some form in the development of Progressive Rock, the inclusion of a band is exceptional and only after verifying that it’s a contribution for the better understanding of Prog among the members and visitors instead of a source of confusion for the community.

All quotes from: http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=38

Her addition would cause more confusion than any benefit.

BTW Prog Related is an exception, and IMO Crossover, well still is Prog Rock.....Thuis is a Prog Rock site with exceptions, nothing more.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 02 2008 at 14:12

russellk

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Posted: November 02 2008 at 13:52

Tori Amos is a superb composer of moving music in the tradition of female singer-songwriters. Her music is painfully introspective and haunts the listener long after the album is finished - one of a handful of musicians who achieves this with consistency. She's able to embrace change, and her work is remarkably diverse.

But I'm afraid I don't hear a moment's prog in her work. Nor do I think her music progressive: she hasn't pushed any boundaries, having followed in the trail blazed by Kate Bush and others. I can't myself see how she fulfills any of the criteria, but I won't lose a moment's sleep if she is added, and I'll enjoy reviewing her albums.

UMUR

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Posted: November 02 2008 at 13:47

I´ll have to correct you there Ivan. Not Prog ROCK. Prog music. ( both metal, rock, avant garde, jazz and whatever other prog related genre that is included here on PA). I think that´s important to note. That´s why I think the name Prog Archives is such a well chosen name and yes I see that it says Your ultimate prog ROCK resource on the logo as well, but as genres like prog related and crossover is now a part of PA I think we should all respect that there will sometimes be added something we don´t feel should be here, but others ( the majority) do.

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Posted: November 02 2008 at 11:59

Slartibartfast wrote:

So it's good music and lumping her in with Richard Clayderman is rather crass and unfair (yeah Ivan, I'm poking fun at you).

I don't say she's good or bad, and Clayderman music gives me nausea, I'm notcopmparing her music with Richard Clayderman; but the argument that she's a great piano player means nothing in an inclusion,

Richard Clayderman no matter how bad his music is, is an honor graduate of Paris Conservatory,

Clayderman entered the Paris Conservatory at age 12 and won first prize for piano at 16.

http://www.musicianguide.com/biographies/1608001314/Richard-Clayderman.html

And I'm completely sure his piano technique is much better than Tori Amos and many Prog keyboardist, so there's no need to mock me,. I'm saying an absolute truth, better mock at arguments like she should be here because:

She's a great piano player
She sings well (I mentioned Stevie Nicks and Dolorores O'Riordan who IMO are in her level and not Prog at all) or the best of all
She should be here because "she's the spiritual daughter of Kate Bush" Hey Kate <Bush is a Prog Related artist, her spiritual relations make nobody Prog.

Just to clarify.

Slartibartfast wrote:

If you limit yourself to music that strictly fits narrow criteria of what is considered prog by this site, you're depriving yourself.

Again you are mixing unrelated arguments, I listen a lot of non Prog music, I don't limit myself to any music.

BUT, PROGARCHIVES is a site created for Prog, it has it's rules an it's ctiteria, so it must be followed, I can't add Jackson Browne because I love his music, and to add Tori Amos, the teams must decide if her music is Prog and fits the "silly criterias" here....Because the game in Prog rchives is Prog Rock.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 02 2008 at 14:15

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Posted: November 02 2008 at 07:11

Well, whether she gets added or not doesn't really matter to me, though I could do some good reviews of her albums. She has yet to put out an album that didn't touch me deeply. So it's good music and lumping her in with Richard Clayderman is rather crass and unfair (yeah Ivan, I'm poking fun at you).

I do think there is something wrong if she gets added to Crossover while Kate remains Prog Related. If you limit yourself to music that strictly fits narrow criteria of what is considered prog by this site, you're depriving yourself.

I know what I like and I like what I know. LOL

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Posted: November 02 2008 at 06:32

excellent.. thanks... like the Stranglers.. it will take all 3 members to accept for her to be added. They all have open minds... so we'll see how it goes. For me...I'm out of the thread to let it go where it goes while I bone up on her.... sort of dropped in to try to stear the discussion in a positive light. Whether she is on other sites doesn't matter at all.. that is what we have teams for here.. to evaluate them based on the standards this site.. our teams have set. Whether she is prog or not is not the question.. I haven't seen one person here explain how she is.. and not one why she isn't. That is TOO subjective a term.

The question is simply whether her music fits the Crossover prog... I dropped in to the thread because I think many lose sight of that.. wait.. never had a sense of what an eval really is. We do NOT judge artists if they are prog or not.. we judge the music to see if it fits for this site. Remember that people.....

The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

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Posted: November 02 2008 at 06:24

micky wrote:

it shouldn't Rico... if people stick to discussing the pros and cons of her... remarkable how people drop out of the discussion when you have to show something about actually knowing the artist. LOL

Hey, I've known and loved her music ever since that album, uhm Pretty In Pink LOL

Edited by Slartibartfast - June 06 2009 at 08:46

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