ELP vs Camel

My vote goes for Camel (my favourite band), although ELP are also among my top-ranked bands

^Thank you I was going to do it myself when the real life issues would've let me, with a messy post full of quotes, so better this way.

Blacksword wrote: Does anyone else think that Camel would have a little more 'energy' and 'punch' if they had had a different drummer?? Wishing no disrespect to Andy Ward, he was capable enough, but he wasn't really up there with the likes of Palmer, Collins, Bruford et al.. IMO..

Yeah, it's true. But extra energy and punch are not features that I miss when listening to Camel. I love Ward's work mostly because of the gentle touch he has and the super tight interplay with Ferguson. Like I remember Bardens saying, possibly on the Curriculum Vitae dvd, that when he first came to the audition he was stunned by their cooperation, how every bass note and bass drum hit was made to work together. One of my favourite rhythm sections.

When they really tried to have energy and punch they went sooo wrong, check out Neon Magic Sometimes it's an amusing song, though. Not recommended for those disliking Latimer's voice.

Edited by Keppa4v - March 10 2009 at 02:13

Fleetway wrote: Easy Livin wrote: I see you're keen to make friends and infleunce people Fleetway.   We like to keep things friendly around here. We'll give you the benefit of the doubt as you're new, but calling your fellow members "elitist F-bags" is not particularly endearing now is it?   Keep it respectful please.   Sorry. I just disslike seeing this constant bashing of camel for no reason in every thread where they are mentioned.

Easy Livin wrote: I see you're keen to make friends and infleunce people Fleetway.   We like to keep things friendly around here. We'll give you the benefit of the doubt as you're new, but calling your fellow members "elitist F-bags" is not particularly endearing now is it?   Keep it respectful please.

I see you're keen to make friends and infleunce people Fleetway.

They are both so different and it's pointless (imo) making comparisons. I have owned albums by both at one point.

Whilst Trilogy is palatable, I now find ELP tiresome, overblown, and frankly boring.

crimson87 wrote: Check any " Brief history of progressive rock" and ELP is mentioned up there whileC Tarkus and BSS are genre defining albums for every site. As regards to PA , at least the site has ELP on a list of popular artists and names them properly as a seminal band in symphonic prog.

rogerthat wrote: Blacksword wrote:  I would definetly support what you are suggesting in principle. One reservation I have would be whether or not there is a real need to refine categories, listings and charts any more than the site already does. But 'importance' and 'influence' are two more very subjective criteria to employ when assessing a bands impact on a sub genre, or on prog rock overall. In terms of allowing PA members an insight into what other folk consider influential or important, it's a good thing, but I can see it spawning countless threads, arguing a bands overall worth. But hey! If it's something that's easy to implement and manage, why not? BTW, I would also support ELP being better represented on the Symphonic page. I've never been a big fan, but I would say they were obviously a MAJOR player in that sub-genre. 'Important' due to their success, and of course their many classical interpretations, if not their 'influence' It definitely would add more clutter, I don't deny that but "best" is an even more subjective criterion than "influential".  At least the discussion on influential forces a measure of objectivity; "best" becomes all personal preference.  It would add more topics for debates, but hey why not?

Why not indeed, I've not much better to do than argue all day..

Blacksword wrote:   I would definetly support what you are suggesting in principle. One reservation I have would be whether or not there is a real need to refine categories, listings and charts any more than the site already does. But 'importance' and 'influence' are two more very subjective criteria to employ when assessing a bands impact on a sub genre, or on prog rock overall. In terms of allowing PA members an insight into what other folk consider influential or important, it's a good thing, but I can see it spawning countless threads, arguing a bands overall worth. But hey! If it's something that's easy to implement and manage, why not? BTW, I would also support ELP being better represented on the Symphonic page. I've never been a big fan, but I would say they were obviously a MAJOR player in that sub-genre. 'Important' due to their success, and of course their many classical interpretations, if not their 'influence'

rogerthat wrote: Blacksword wrote: rogerthat wrote: On the topic of influence, I definitely think ELP were among the most influential prog acts - other than Pink Floyd.  Not because of Emerson and Palmer showing off as is commonly suggested.  Rather, they, along with Gentle Giant and Jethro Tull 'created' (put in quotes because everything under the sun has been done before somewhere sometime) a paradigm of prog that came to be representative of the genre and was yet very different from the direction shown by ITCOCK. When I hear the early albums of Genesis or Yes or Camel, I can visualise ITCOCK foreshadowing the direction these bands took, regardless that they may have forged their own distinctive sound as they evolved.  But Tull with their folk prog, 'Giant with their wonderful mutli-faceted approach and ELP with the most keyboard driven sound of them all went in different directions.  Maybe it is just a false trail and what seems to be so evident to me is not so to others because they are more experienced than me, but oh well, thought I'd put it down anyway.  I remember reading interviews with Genesis, where they said ITCOTCK was a massive influence on them, when locked themselves away in a cottage to write Trespass. I think Tony Banks's first Mellotron was a 'hand me down' from Fripp! So, I would agree with what you say about many bands, being influenced by the first KC album. In terms of influence, I'm still not too sure. ELP certainly had little in common with many other prog bands. They were unique in their approach, but with the exception of a few tribute bands, I cant really think of many other acts who were obviously influenced by them (maybe PFM? I'm not really that familiar with them). Same applies to Tull. That said, I guess influece, is just one measure of how successful a band is. So what if they didn't influence thousands of other bands? It doesn't take anything away from the fact that they were hugely successful. I think, most bands - of any rock sub genre - tend towards more guitar presence in the music, rather than maing music that is keyboard led. While not many bands sound exactly like ELP, prog moving to a keyboard driven as opposed to guitar driven sound owes a lot to ELP, it ensured that at least the first rising of prog rock was very different from what generally passed as rock music...from the 80s onwards prog has drifted back to a more guitar oriented sound.   I definitely agree that influence alone is not the sole criterion of success, there are many albums by far less successful or influential bands that I would pick over the best ELP albums from the point of view of personal preference. At the same time, I agree with Raff that a band as important as ELP needs to be better represented at least on the symph prog page - being that they are classified as  symph prog - if not on the main page.  What is the solution? Perhaps to introduce a separate ranking on the basis of importance and influence and then list the most representative albums of a sub genre and the genre as a whole prominently. We can still have the best album lists so if you are like "F*** influence, I want to listen to the best albums" then you will get a good guide for that too.  That way, the system remains democratic and also gives credit where due.  What do you think?

I would definetly support what you are suggesting in principle. One reservation I have would be whether or not there is a real need to refine categories, listings and charts any more than the site already does. But 'importance' and 'influence' are two more very subjective criteria to employ when assessing a bands impact on a sub genre, or on prog rock overall. In terms of allowing PA members an insight into what other folk consider influential or important, it's a good thing, but I can see it spawning countless threads, arguing a bands overall worth.

But hey! If it's something that's easy to implement and manage, why not?

BTW, I would also support ELP being better represented on the Symphonic page. I've never been a big fan, but I would say they were obviously a MAJOR player in that sub-genre. 'Important' due to their success, and of course their many classical interpretations, if not their 'influence'