ELP vs Camel
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=56147
Printed Date: November 26 2024 at 09:48
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Topic: ELP vs Camel
Posted By: crimson87
Subject: ELP vs Camel
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 18:20
| After the ultimate prog tournament ( or whatever it's name was) have your tastes changed? |
Replies:
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 18:21
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Nope.... Camel! hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahah |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 18:25
Ah f**k, here we go again... |
Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 18:26
Man ELP is totally crushing Camel , there is no point in this poll anymore!
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Posted By: Evolutionary Sleeper
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 18:28
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I only somewhat like ELP, Camel by a lot.
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Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 18:35
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I'm extremely interested to see if this has changed. My vote remains unchanged. ELP all the way! 
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 18:46
I think I made my point quite clear in that infamous review I wrote a few days ago .... I find Camel enjoyable (I have six of their CDs, and listen to them relatively often), but I think it is a disgrace that no ELP album is in the Top 100. And I will stop at that to avoid offending various sensibilities.
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Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 18:56
I voted ELP as well. And Raff, as long as you're respectful of other people's views, then you have every right to speak your opinion. I agree with you 110% from the other day, and if other people have a hard time accepting that, then I think they need to take their hard feelings somewhere else. They could use that energy to write a Camel review instead!  ------------- 
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Raff wrote:Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 18:58
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8-2 GO ELP!!!!!! -------------
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Posted By: Sckxyss
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 19:13
| I don't love either band, but I find ELP a little more interesting, even if they're a little more inconsistant. |
Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 19:31
| Just finished Moonmadness ,and it's a pity because I wasn't even moved by that record like I was before. It all seemed so... harmless |
Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 19:34
That's their best album too. -------------
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Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 19:39
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It's quite weird because I consider The Snow goose to be their only 5 star album but it's approach is no different than Moonmadness or Mirage , it's even MORE pastoral. Probably it has to do with the fact that Latimer shuts up on the whole album , I don't know
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 19:41
I listened to that a couple of days ago.. and left drool on my keyboard from the stupor I fell into.... pffffff... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 19:43
| I think their best album might be their debut. "Never Let Go" is a very good song, for which I have always had a soft spot. |
Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 19:43
f'*cking Camel
i don't know how to multi quote but yeah , Never let go is a really energetic song with a great guitar solo at the en. I also enjoy the live version with Richard Sinclair on vocals , that guy's voice is a British treasure
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 19:51
damn right... as if making uninspiring boring music wasn't sin enough.. not to mention daring to beat ELP last year.... they had one of the greatest voices ever in prog... and Latimer still insisted on singing. The single worst aspect of the group... forget the boring music... stupid move which deserves the slings and arrows of any decent upstanding prog fan hahahha ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 19:54
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 19:54
You rock ! Richard Sinclair has now become my favourite prog vocalist... His absence from most polls is a total disgrace . |
Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 19:59
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Now that I think of it that's true. Who would have thought Latimer is so self indulgent to not let RS as the lead vocalist? An also some vocals on the first impression , with better results than Latimer , I bet anyone Emerson must be even a better axeman
... well , who needs an axe when you have a modular Moog???
 |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 20:02
*spits diet Arizona Peach Tea on monitor* ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 20:15
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CAMEL by a mile for me, maybe more than just 1 mile actually.
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Posted By: TheCaptain
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 21:16
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I have never been too fond of Camel. They have their good spots but there isn't a single song by them that I absolutely love. ELP, on the other hand, made Tarkus. While they are beyond inconsistent, they still crank out the occasional masterpiece song.
------------- Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal. |
Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 21:27
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Emerson Lake Palmer |
Posted By: Sacred 22
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 23:33
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Camel, I like em' the kings of
elevator prog
 , up there with PFM I would say ELP and Camel are the antithesis of one another. |
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 00:31
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Camel easy. I'm a big fan of their debut and their albums from 1976-1981. Mirage and Snowgoose are my least fave of their first 8 albums. As for ELP, I only really like their first 3 studio albums. ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 01:22
Emerson, Latimer and Palmer ,......... oops! Terrorism again. I mean the Us vs Them thing again, really! Hey Camel is good and Elp is good, they both matter , they both deserve , they both are prog. C'mon Micky , let's both attack some sh***tier band , OK? Like , the Stones , fer example (hahahahahahaha)    ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Zargus
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 02:21
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Goin with ELP here i love Camels Moongoose album but ELP got more good albums. ------------- 
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Posted By: martinprog77
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 03:20
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camel ------------- Nothing can last there are no second chances. Never give a day away. Always live for today. |
Posted By: zbida
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 03:29
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ELP seems to be an icon, but I rather prefer listening to the music (especially straight from the heart) than looking at the icon symbol.
Camel here.
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Posted By: martinprog77
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 03:33
------------- Nothing can last there are no second chances. Never give a day away. Always live for today. |
Posted By: martinprog77
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 03:35
------------- Nothing can last there are no second chances. Never give a day away. Always live for today. |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 03:44
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Camel by a mile. While I do like a lot of ELP, and agree that some of their albums should be in the top 100, they were a bit too inconsistent for me, and quite often self-indulgent. I find Camel's music to be much more emotional, without so much focus on technique over emotional content. Latimer is the man, and I don't mind his vocals really either, although I always thought that Bardens and then Sinclair were better vocalists. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: Anirml
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 04:07
| Camel for me |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 04:24
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Camel gets the vote.
ELP have a superior drummer and singer (not that I generally rate Greg Lake very highly) but Camel have Andy Latimers lead guitar, flute. Pete Bardens more varied keyboard sound, and of course, most importantly, they write better songs in my personal opinion. I think they also progressed more interestingly, and survived the 70's better than ELP. |
Posted By: mono
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 05:15
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A hundred times CAMEL
------------- https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else |
Posted By: Fleetway
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 05:16
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Camel by a mile. I dont see why all the hate for camel around these here parts.
Camel has done 14 albums of wich im in love with 12. ELP has made like 100 albums of wich 50 are turds.
That said I do like ELP alot. But only on afew albums.
I absolutely agree with this except that i like Andy Latimers singing. Especialy on the later albums.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 06:40
never mention Came with PFM.. or PFM with elevator prog hahhaha.  tasteful prog sure... but with plenty of fire and passion... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 07:18
I'd certainly agree that he improved with age as a singer. |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 09:03
Camel is one of the most consistent, melodic, accessible and emotional prog groups ever. I even like Latimer's voice. I always felt ELP was a bloated dinosaur from the get go. So I voted Camel. 
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Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 09:03
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I know ELP's output from the debut to Welcome Back My Friends... All of those albums have some really good stuff, but also a lot of material that leaves me cold. Trilogy is I think their best album as a whole, the only one that's more or less good material from beginning to end. Karn Evil 9 is my favourite song from them and contains my favourite keyboard riff ever. Camel on the other hand is a band that I have a huge soft spot for. Brilliant stuff from Mirage to Moonmadness, then downhill towards the 80s when they had a couple of very good albums in Nude and Stationary Traveller. Dust and Dreams continued on the good standards set by these albums, but on Rajaz and A Nod and a Wink they returned to the same level they last were on Moonmadness. Love both albums. And especially I love Latimer's vocal performance on both. His voice truly gained a lot of character and emotion as years went by. Definitely one of my dearest favourite bands from the prog field, if not the dearest of all. ------------- http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=42652" rel="nofollow - It's on PA! 
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 09:21
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Still can't stand ELP. Still have this soft spot for Camel's two, three maybe four first. But none are among my 100 favorite bands (ELP not even in my top 1000).
------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: angelmk
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 09:32
| Camel for sure, i never menaged to fully embrace elp. |
Posted By: fil karada
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 09:40
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No doubt here, Camel it is.
------------- 
Some people find joy in knowledge. Some people find joy in ignorance. Some people just enjoy music. |
Posted By: memowakeman
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 09:46
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Camel ------------- Follow me on twitter @memowakeman |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 10:29
Blistering Barnacles, ELP losing out to Camel, I am not reading this! Poor crimson87's joy was shortlived, it turns out.  'fraid I have to agree even more now with what micky said the other day in that Genesis thread, something about easy listening. Not that I dislike Camel, their albums are very pleasant, though not very interesting beyond a point, and Latimer's solos are great, but I find ELP a rather obvious winner in this poll. Turns out the majority disagrees with me. 
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Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 10:43
Not even in the top 1000? Wow that is harsh. I can think of at least a thousand groups that ELP is better than. I went with Camel but I like ELP equally. |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 10:48
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Camel
I like a lot ELP, but Camel has "diversity" of sounds. -------------  |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 11:38
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My tastes have changed since the last poll. I like Camel even more and ELP even less. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 11:39
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In one interview I read with Carl Palmer, he said he thought ELP only made two good albums. I'm inclined to agree..
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Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 11:39
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Besides how do you come to the conclusion that Camel's music comes from the heart and ELP's not?
I know that it's all about your personal tastes but in my opinion with the exeption of some songs and "The Snow Goose" Camel is the cold one here. I don't want to sleep with symphonic prog , I have my copy of Tangerine Dream "Zeit" for that matter! ( Incredible album by the way) I don't have a single doubt that if Mirage was released in 1970 it would have been quite groundbreaking , but it was released 4 years later! Almost an eternity You had loads of incredible records in that period
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 11:48
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I see I will have to write another review...
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 11:49
I never regarded as ELP as 'cold' as such. Plenty of their music came from the heart, I'm sure, but these bands had a differet approach to making music. Camel was about melody, and less about the 'show' ELP was more about virtuosity and interpretting classical music, and dare I say it 'showing off' I dont object to that, in principle. Prog is about variety and trying different things musically, but for me I prefer the Camel formula. ELP were almost too patchy and inconsistent for me, and Greg Lake often tried to sing things he shouldn't have. His rendition of Jerusalem was horribly flat. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 11:51
| Well, Andy, in my humble opinion Latimer ALWAYS tried to sing things he shouldn't have.... He even sang most of the parts when he had Richard Sinclair in the band! |
Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 11:53
This is turning out very similarly to last year. 
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Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 11:53
 It was so beautiful while it lasted..... that 18-2
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Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 11:58
Well, I'm going to hold another tournament at some point this year. If ELP end up being in it, I'll support them to see how far they can get. I'm not entirely sure which angle I'm taking this year yet though... I want to have one HUGE one instead of two smaller ones like I did last year. King Crimson ended up winning out of the two winners (Gentle Giant being the runner-up) and was proclaimed PA's favorite band of 2008. I promise you that the 2009 will be even more epic. Alot can change in a few months too.  -------------
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 12:14
Agreed. Latimers voice was the weakest element in Camel, imo. In my first post I did say that I considered Lake the better singer overall. But if you're going to sing hymns, it's probably best to make sure you're able to first.. I find his performance on 'The Only Way' on Tarkus toe curling to be honest.
Lake was at his best singing heavier material, and some of the ballads he pulled off quite well. |
Posted By: Sacred 22
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 12:47
It would seem that this particular elevator is in free fall with all the ELP faithful trapped inside. Hang on everybody
 . As you fall the Camel gang are boosting the votes |
Posted By: Sacred 22
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 12:52
It looks like this elevator is in free fall
with all the ELP faithful trapped inside listening to PFM while the gang from Camel elevate the votes |
Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 14:06
ELP should be sentenced to lose all of their future polls for this crime against humanity: The ultimate argument against ELP. But seriously speaking, I'm not surprised that no ELP albums are on the top 100 list. Most people, including me, seem to think that their albums contain many masterpieces but also too many passable tracks. And since albums are what we're rating, they don't make it to the top so easily. If it was top 100 prog songs, I bet many of theirs would be just up there among the very best. ------------- http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=42652" rel="nofollow - It's on PA!
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Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 15:30
| In my mind I see ELP as one long, albeit amazing, keyboard solo. Camel has a range of styles that are incorporated into their music. I am also very fond of Latimer's guitar. to listen to ELP I have to be in the mood for it. |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 17:12
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The big difference is that Camel were a band who played for each other and complemented each other. Each was prepared to take a back seat at times to let others play. Their music is about melody and emotion first and foremost, but they are consummate musicians and a lot of their music is extremely complex and all of it was original. However, sometimes "simple is good". ELP were more about showmanship. I never felt that Emerson played as a member of a team; as normal sole lead instrument he took a lot of responsibility and seemed to forget the needs of the others. His playing on Pictures at an Exhibition was described to me as "a bit sloppy" (by an organist who was once regarded as one of the greatest living players); he may be flash, but he's nothing like as technically gifted as some of you would like to think (certainly not as good as Wakeman in terms of technique and accuracy). And quite a lot of their material was an arrangement of classical material - not entirely original. ELP were a good band for a fairly short while; Camel were often a great band (not always, I admit) over 3 decades. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: March 06 2009 at 02:55
| ELP, although Camel has a more constant quality. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 06 2009 at 05:27
I've heard similar things said about Emersons playing. A former concert pianist once told me that he believed Emerson to be around Grade 8 on the piano, which is quite good, but it's not exactly the genius level some people believe him to be at. In all fairness, I doubt many if any 'rock' keyboard players actually are. Still hats off to Emmy for playing a grand piano in mid air, while spinning around. Not that IS showing off!
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Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: March 06 2009 at 12:21
I wish that they never made that album. They should have not come back after it as well. |
Posted By: Hawkwise
Date Posted: March 06 2009 at 12:28
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Hmmmm Much as i love Camel and listen to them more often than ELP my Vote has to go to ELP there first three albums are just so damn good, Side one of the First ELP album is a Prog masterpiece ! ! ! ! IMHO ------------- 
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Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: March 06 2009 at 14:26
Actually I was talking just about the cover, I haven't heard the album. I've been thinking lately that since that lovely piece of photography keeps popping up in me and my friends' prog conversations and it's really really cheap in my regular store, I should buy it one day just to hear what's behind that cover. And maybe get the t-shirt done that my friend Anderson III has been talking about... It would be sweet to turn up in these mighty prog events sporting that cover on my chest. ------------- http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=42652" rel="nofollow - It's on PA!
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Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: March 06 2009 at 15:38
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Love Beach is not that bad , the cover is hilarious and I qualify it as a 2.5 - 3 stars album. There are some albums as uninspired as Love beach such as Rain Dances , Stationary Traveller , I can see your house from here or Breathless. My ultimate argument against Camel ( Excluding the snow Goose)
 |
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: March 06 2009 at 16:53
Raindances is probably better than every ELP album. It's great. I can see your house from here is underrated ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: March 06 2009 at 16:57
You really can't say that, dude. I mean, you may prefer it over any ELP album, but better???!!! (BTW I voted Camel) Tarkus the song, beats any song on Rain Dances, on compositional and song-writing skill, and let's not talk about musicianship.... Trilogy, has well, Trilogy, which as well features a much better musicianship in all Rain Dances... BSS, while not a fave of mine, Karn Evil 9, is really amazing. BTW: I really like Rain Dances, I love the jazzy feel to most of the songs, the same for Breathless, great records, often underrated....though also overrated |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 06 2009 at 16:57
Now I see I REALLY have to write another review ... |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 06 2009 at 17:00
hahahha... *spits Diet Coke on Monitor* that's why you see Camel.. mentioned SO highly in any objective analysis of prog rock. Like that book that picked some of the greatest works of prog.... one from Floyd, one from Yes.. one from Genesis.. and one from Camel....whoops... I mean...ELP. Yeah.. ELP.. smucks who never did a good album. You make me proud to be an ELP fan if that is sh*t music man hahaha. What the hell is prog about.. ELP symbolizes it to a T. Raindances is a nice album for insomnia... and it's place in the prog heirachy reflects that. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: March 06 2009 at 17:27
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I needed that backup here!
Check out this notes in 1996 RHINO edition of " Brain Salad Surgery"
"Rock critics and rock musicians think of Emerson Lake and Palmer as pompous and pretentious... a gleeful Carl Palmer , drummer extraordinnaire , explains. Which we are!!! We 're not a straghtfordward rock band , we are a saber-ratting band!!
If you are looking for safe , critic-approved , potentially correct pop music engightenment , boy did you get the wrong catalog number! In their heyday ELP were perennial contenders for most Critically Reviled Rock band on the Planet. But in 1973 and 74 only the Rolling Stones , The Who , and Led Zeppelin were bigger concert draws- and none of them were playing Copland , Mussorgsky , Ginastera or Brubeck. Or anything remotely resembling ELP's own complex , manic and yes - BOMBASTIC- largely Hammond and Moog driven compostions , for that matter.
Call me a fanboy but all that is so godamm true. I would even include Works as one of their greatest achievements , there is some live footage from the Works tour in Montreal which is outstanding (I ll soon review it) And even if you dislike ELP that concert with the orchestra was one of the defining moments of progressive rock , no one took it further than ELP.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 06 2009 at 19:57
Actually most of their albums can eminently serve that purpose.
Tried listening to Moonmadness yesterday...as usual, very pleasant and gorgeous, but after two tracks, I caught myself falling asleep and had to switch to Captain Beyond! |
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: March 06 2009 at 21:45
Tarkus is overrated imo. Bitches crystal is probably my fave song on that album, but the last 2 tracks are mediocre imo. ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: March 06 2009 at 22:31
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They are such different groups that the argument is a bit silly. But I must defend the honour of Stationary Traveller. Uninspired? It's one of the best examples of a 70s group updating its sound to meet the 80s, and Latimer plays some of his best guitars. The concept is strong, and Chris Rainbow sharing vocal duties doesn't hurt. Fingertips is incredible, its double bass and sax are delightful Long Goodbyes is a great way for the band to bow out for the rest of the 80s. God, what were ELP doing in 1984 anyway? How many groups can we say maintained a consistent quality level while changing all the while, over 3+ decades. Even if you don't think they are that great, or even good, it's hard to deny their willingness to change and their reasonable success at doing so. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 06 2009 at 22:45
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^^^ That brings up an interesting perspective. I would like to know how much importance is to be attached to the output of bands in their declining years, if at all. I am not saying this to defend ELP
but because in general it's more important to me what the bands achieved when they were at their best. As a corollary, whether a band made several decent albums or only a few is not particularly important to me, I am more interested in how many masterpieces or at least excellent albums they made. If they made one masterpiece and then disappeared forever, they would have still won my admiration. For instance, I do appreciate KC's 80s and 90s efforts but they win respect from me entirely on account of ITCOCK, Lizard and the LTIA-Red trilogy. Thoughts on this: which way do the rest of you folks veer on this issue? |
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: March 07 2009 at 00:22
I never said elp were not cool. I really enjoy their first 3 albums. But I don't like much elp after Trilogy. Latimer was a much better song writer imo and I much prefer to listen to Camel 1976-1981 era. I also love the Camel debut album from 1973. I think Mirage is a bit of a letdown though ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: March 07 2009 at 01:44
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Someone's emotional and beautiful is someones loathsome easy-listening.
Someone's bombastic and flashy is someone's pompous and unlistenable. When considering my favourites I personally don't care how well a band crystallizes the essence of prog or punk or surf music, I just care about how much I enjoy listening to the band. I recognize the impact of Ramones and Dick Dale and respect it, but it doesn't make a difference in my overall liking of them. Camel I enjoy in the length of albums, ELP I mostly enjoy in the length of songs (which sometimes are in the length of albums, I admit). Yesterday I listened to the first four studio albums by ELP, and there's some truly brilliant stuff in there. So even though I defend Camel I'm not putting ELP down. ELP made more proggy prog, but Camel made more enjoyable music if you ask me. ------------- http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=42652" rel="nofollow - It's on PA!
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 07 2009 at 07:04
You know, you made a lot of very good points in the above post . On the other hand (and I am no ELP fangirl, though I like them very much), there is one thing that should be said. If serious writers about prog mention ELP as one of the seminal bands of the genre (even going to the lengths of analysing one of their tracks in detail, like Edward Macan did in his Rocking the Classics), and Camel as a second-tier band at best, there must be some reason. That, of course, doesn't mean that Camel's music cannot be more enjoyable to many people - I, for instance, enjoy many second-tier bands' music more than Genesis', as influential as they are. My main point is, a site that aspires to be the ULTIMATE prog resource should not have on its front page a Top 100 (which for many people is important and indicative) with NO ELP albums at all (and full instead of obscure albums by equally obscure bands). If the site is supposed to be a guide, personal taste should be secondary. |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: March 07 2009 at 07:40
| I don't really care what "serious" writers say. "Serious" writers dissed all prog. So if I am not to follow serious mainstream music writers, why should I follow serious prog writers? |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 07 2009 at 07:54
Serious prog writers did/do know their stuff. Serious mainstream writers, usually critiqued (is that a word?) mainstream music on it's 'mainstream' merits, and dissed prog, because it wasn't mainstream. Simple really. ELP WERE one of the seminal prog acts, regardless of whether you like them or not. They were very 'progressive' in their approach to making music, and although they may not have been as influential as Genesis or Yes (open to discussion) they were hugely successful and very talented. Along with Genesis, KC, Yes, Tull, Floyd, they were a premier league prog band. |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: March 07 2009 at 08:00
That's all well and good, but I didn't come here to parrot what serious prog writers say. I came to offer my take on prog and learn about music that I didn't know before. A few albums excepted, I am not high on any of the top tier bands (although I totally get the adulation when it comes to Genesis and especially KC). And I think I represent a segment of music fans that could get into prog with the right exposure, ie-not ELP  .
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 07 2009 at 08:02
I really hope that was not referred to me, since I've never parroted anything in my life. However, since you seem not to have read my post besides that quote, I'll leave it at that before it turns ugly. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 07 2009 at 08:03
| ^^^ Maybe, although I reckon ELP would be more likely to catch the attention of non prog fans, than KC, in most cases, simply because their music was, for the most part more accesable. IMO. |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: March 07 2009 at 08:05
| true, like "Lucky Man". But then Camel might have done an even better job of capturing that segment, not necessarily pop fans but people looking for something with more depth yet still accessible |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: March 07 2009 at 08:06
no offense intended, I'll leave it at that |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 07 2009 at 08:07
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OK, apology accepted.... Let's just agree to disagree!
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Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: March 07 2009 at 08:08
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no apology intended either though actually I looked back and my response was to Blacksword, not you, but no insult intended there either!! |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 07 2009 at 08:20
On the topic of influence, I definitely think ELP were among the most influential prog acts - other than Pink Floyd. Not because of Emerson and Palmer showing off as is commonly suggested. Rather, they, along with Gentle Giant and Jethro Tull 'created' (put in quotes because everything under the sun has been done before somewhere sometime) a paradigm of prog that came to be representative of the genre and was yet very different from the direction shown by ITCOCK. When I hear the early albums of Genesis or Yes or Camel, I can visualise ITCOCK foreshadowing the direction these bands took, regardless that they may have forged their own distinctive sound as they evolved. But Tull with their folk prog, 'Giant with their wonderful mutli-faceted approach and ELP with the most keyboard driven sound of them all went in different directions. Maybe it is just a false trail and what seems to be so evident to me is not so to others because they are more experienced than me, but oh well, thought I'd put it down anyway. 
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 07 2009 at 08:44
I remember reading interviews with Genesis, where they said ITCOTCK was a massive influence on them, when locked themselves away in a cottage to write Trespass. I think Tony Banks's first Mellotron was a 'hand me down' from Fripp! So, I would agree with what you say about many bands, being influenced by the first KC album. In terms of influence, I'm still not too sure. ELP certainly had little in common with many other prog bands. They were unique in their approach, but with the exception of a few tribute bands, I cant really think of many other acts who were obviously influenced by them (maybe PFM? I'm not really that familiar with them). Same applies to Tull. That said, I guess influece, is just one measure of how successful a band is. So what if they didn't influence thousands of other bands? It doesn't take anything away from the fact that they were hugely successful. I think, most bands - of any rock sub genre - tend towards more guitar presence in the music, rather than maing music that is keyboard led. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 07 2009 at 08:49
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I think the point I wanted to make in my original post was misunderstood. As I stated clearly, I am no ELP fangirl (actually, I am NO band's fangirl - I can be critical even of my favourites), nor do I hate Camel - far from that. The question, in my personal (and very humble opinion), is one related to the 'objective value' of a piece of art, be it visual, musical or literary. To give a practical example, I don't like St Peter's Basilica (I am originally from Rome), but I'd never try to prove it is a worthless building because I don't like it, or suggest it should be scrapped from art history books. I could have taken a painting, or a book, to give the same example. There are lots of artistic or literary 'masterpieces' I don't particularly care for, but I would never deny their overall importance. However, by not having any ELP in that notorious Top 100 (which, being on the front page and all that, does have some kind of informational value for newcomers), we are automatically denying them their place in prog history - and this, always in my opinion, is not a good thing for the 'ultimate prog resource'. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 07 2009 at 08:50
Actually, thinking back, most of my non prog loving friends are mostly into indie music. When I try to subject these poor people to prog, it is never ELP that catches their ear. Coming from a dirgy, Indie starting point, they do actually tend towads stuff like VDGG and KC. So that confounds my previous argument!!
That said, I dont know many people from a pop or conventional (soft?) rock background. If I did, I'm confident they would dig Brain Salad Surgery more than Larks Tonges in Aspic!
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Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: March 07 2009 at 08:51
It's a good point, but what can we do about it. I'm certainly not prepared to flood my reviews with 5 stars for Tarkus, let alone for Love Beach  The people have spoken, and this is among the most democratic sites, maybe you are saying too much so. But history is always being rewritten. Maybe the new prog sensibility is that Camel is more worthy than ELP? |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: March 07 2009 at 08:54
but they might like "I Talk to the Wind" or "Epitaph" more than BSS? Or maybe "Snow Goose" |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 07 2009 at 08:57
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I gave Tarkus 4 stars myself.. As to the people speaking, there would be a lot to be said about it, as well as about many of the reviews here - but this is neither the place nor the time. If the new prog sensibility is such, then so be it... I rest my case.
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 07 2009 at 09:00
Possibly, although compared to much of what KC produced over the years, ITCOTCK is quite accessable, IMO. How long did that line up last? Two albums? Fripp never liked doing the same thing twice, and Crimson took some very innaccessable twists and turns thereafter. The Snow Goose would fall mostly on deaf ears, I reckon. It's listenable, but most rock/pop music lovers like to hear a singer. Although, when Andy Latimer opens his mouth sometimes, it's not always a pleasurable experience..
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 07 2009 at 09:04
That is probably the case, and I would say a lot of that (though not all) is down to Camel being guitar driven, and there is a lot of love for heavy, guitar based progressive music, among the younger prog fans. Thats my perception, anyway. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 07 2009 at 09:30
While not many bands sound exactly like ELP, prog moving to a keyboard driven as opposed to guitar driven sound owes a lot to ELP, it ensured that at least the first rising of prog rock was very different from what generally passed as rock music...from the 80s onwards prog has drifted back to a more guitar oriented sound. I definitely agree that influence alone is not the sole criterion of success, there are many albums by far less successful or influential bands that I would pick over the best ELP albums from the point of view of personal preference. At the same time, I agree with Raff that a band as important as ELP needs to be better represented at least on the symph prog page - being that they are classified as symph prog - if not on the main page. What is the solution? Perhaps to introduce a separate ranking on the basis of importance and influence and then list the most representative albums of a sub genre and the genre as a whole prominently. We can still have the best album lists so if you are like "F*** influence, I want to listen to the best albums" then you will get a good guide for that too. That way, the system remains democratic and also gives credit where due. What do you think?
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