PA the only site to recognize J-R Fusion as Prog? |
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MikeEnRegalia
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^ Of course you are correct, how could it be any other way? You are clearly the only one here with enough experience to say something intelligent about the subject.
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Saperlipopette!
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 20 2010 Location: Tomorrowland Status: Offline Points: 11699 |
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No I don't think of Terje Rypdal as Prog. We agree. If you actually read what I wrote every once in a while before replying, you would have known my take on this. But his 1971-1975 albums in particular are Jazz Rock Fusion to me (and several projects during the same era). I don't care if you agree or not. Your takes are are yours only, and certainly not mine. To my ears and many others ECM-albums like Chick Corea/Return to Forever, Priester's Love, Love, Liebman's Lookout Farm, Maupin's The Jewel in the Lotus, Waldron's The Call and many more are Jazz Rock Fusion. Many enough agree with me. Which isn't strange. Because it's correct. |
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Starshiper
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 08 2024 Location: Englantic Status: Offline Points: 664 |
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You are aware, though, that the jazz-rock genre also features some beautiful guitar solos that emphasise melody over speed. |
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Saperlipopette!
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 20 2010 Location: Tomorrowland Status: Offline Points: 11699 |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21206 |
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I think we can all agree that skilful virtuosic playing in itself is neither good nor bad, it's just one element of many. And subjective preferences aside, the key to creating a good track/song is for the musicians to use whichever elements make sense and work well together to achieve the desired outcome.
When it comes to JRF, technical prowess is certainly an element that is emphasised and/or appreciated more than usual among the typical audience. BTW: Here's one of my favourite JRF combos, rarely to be captured on video. Enjoy! |
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Hrychu
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 03 2013 Location: poland? Status: Offline Points: 5369 |
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Also, WHO exactly considers this vulgar? Are those people privileged to set a verdict? If so, are those privileges verifiable? I'd say that since there are so many "schools" to how one can be a classical music expert, it's not so easy for the consumer to tell who is right. I'm just rambling, so take this post with a tiny grain of salt. |
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“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.”
— Ernest Vong |
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Saperlipopette!
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 20 2010 Location: Tomorrowland Status: Offline Points: 11699 |
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^I didn't actually mean to write that. But to be honest there's is a side to me that thinks John McLaughlin's playing at his most frenetic in the early MU years, is somewhat... immature (but I don't think he is like that all the time - or thorughout his career).
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MikeEnRegalia
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^ Sure, I'm just saying that highly skilled virtuosic playing is not in itself something that is only appreciated by unsophisticated teenagers.
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Saperlipopette!
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In classical music you don't stand a chance without being extremely skillful at your instrument. But skills and complexity are used and presented in vastly different ways. It's still no coincidence that the coloratura-soprano and Paganini is seen as vulgar. They are considered show-offy for the sake of showing off. |
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MikeEnRegalia
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^ Skilful fast playing is certainly not a "juvenile" thing ... apart from thrash and death metal, it is a core element of Jazz and Classical music as well.
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Saperlipopette!
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 20 2010 Location: Tomorrowland Status: Offline Points: 11699 |
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Edited by Saperlipopette! - September 25 2024 at 03:26 |
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Starshiper
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ECM artist Rypdal's sound is more ethereal and experimental, whereas McLaughlin's approach actually symbolises the jazz-rock genre with its complexity and virtuosic playing style.
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verslibre
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 01 2004 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 17231 |
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And Mac and Bill aren't Jan and Jerry. It's a wildly different aesthetic on Like Children: more textured, more melodic, less w**ky, just as virtuosic. I just prefer it. No, there's no Mac-styled guitar, just as there's no Hammer-styled keys on later Mahavishnu records. |
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MikeEnRegalia
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Prog defies genre boundaries. For instance, arguing only on the basis of PA genres and ignoring other multi/tag based systems, one would be hard-pressed selecting only one of PA's genres as the "nucleus" of prog. Most would intuitively choose Symphonic Prog - but that excludes King Crimson and Jethro Tull. I'd wager that if you managed to get the ten most knowledgable persons in this forum to pick their 20 favourite releases which capture the essence of classic prog rock in the 1970s and compiled the result, you would end up with releases from at least five PA genres.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 28085 |
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Oh my goody god there is actually a thing called 'freestyle soccer'?
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Saperlipopette!
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 20 2010 Location: Tomorrowland Status: Offline Points: 11699 |
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"Freestyle soccer is unique in that it really is the art of movement with the ball. To me, complexity is increasingly difficult techniques and fluidity of movement. There truly are an unlimited amount of tricks, but this is my personal interpretation of the challenge. Knee juggles, feet juggles, flick ups, blocks, crossovers, advanced blocks, clipper, sitdowns, thigh pops, no touch combos, ‘around the moon,’ and a handful of stalls and ‘around the world’ tricks" - The most complex of her levels include transitions, acrobatic tricks, and creative self expression. -I have no doubt her technique is beyond excellent, but I wouldn't want her on my football team. I wouldn't want a peak-era self-indulgent John McLaughlin (ca. 71-73) in my band either. Not if I could have someone like Terje Rypdal instead. A "world champion" on a musical instrument is of very limited interest to me in itself. |
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Dapper~Blueberries
Prog Reviewer Joined: November 06 2021 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 355 |
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I think it ultimately depends. Like, stuff like Soft Machine, or Mahavishnu Orchestra are definitely fusion bands, but they're also prog rock. Same with Chicago being both prog and jazz rock. However I wouldn't consider stuff like Miles Davis, Santana (Unless we're talking about Caravanserai), and Steely Dan prog, even if their sounds are still very much in tune with the rock genre. I guess they're more jazz/rock than prog in those regards, rather than having a in-between of prog and jazz/rock. I am fine with jazz rock and fusion being on the archives, but I do agree with those who see them as seperate genres to the prog rock mythos. |
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D~B
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Starshiper
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verslibre
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 01 2004 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 17231 |
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It's safe to say John McLaughlin is the reason Jan Hammer bailed out of Mahavishnu, after which he and (violinist) Jerry Goodman recorded Like Children, which I think is better than anything M.O. did while Hammer was in the band. |
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Jacob Schoolcraft
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Interesting viewpoints here!! |
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