Your fave &quot;avantgardish&quot; Progressive Rock albums?

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Posted: August 21 2022 at 05:30

Thanks for the discussion here which I surely think makes this thread richer, and which I find especially good when as precise

as the last post of Lewian. Smile

Edited by David_D - August 21 2022 at 06:08

quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond

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Posted: August 20 2022 at 13:42

Lewian wrote:

nick_h_nz wrote:

The majority of music isn’t made to challenge its listeners.

Although this is quite certainly true, one can find statements of avantgarde composers such as Stockhausen that make clear that challenging the listener (their listening habits) is part of what they aim at. To some extent, even though I cannot back it up by quotations (and I'd need to do some looking around to find out where Stockhausen, Ligeti, and others said what I remember in this respect), I sense some of this attitude also in some "avantguardish" prog music, and in some a supposedly cool oppositional "middle finger to those who don't get it, and we know that's many" attitude.

Absolutely, and this is precisely why I said the majority. There are some notable exceptions, but the point is that they are exceptions.

(Conversely, being deliberately challenging to listeners, and/or sticking up the middle finger is not necessarily an indicator of avantgardish music. There has been plenty of that in music other than avant garde.)

Basically, I just don’t think it is a particularly useful part of any definition of “avantgardish” music to say it challenges the listeners. Much of the time it doesn’t, and just as much of the time it wasn’t intended to anyway. 🤷🏻‍♂️

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Posted: August 20 2022 at 12:47

I guess, it would be nice with some "avantgardish" lyrics:

Aesma Daeva - "Overature" (excerpt)

In darkness let me dwell

The ground, the ground shall sorrow be
The roof of despair which bares all cheerful light from me
To bar all cheerful light

The walls marble black which moistened still shall weep from me
They still shall weep forever in darkness
To bar all cheerful light

The roof of despair which bares all the cheerful light from me
To bar all cheerful light

(from the album The Eros of Frigid Beauty (2001))

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Posted: August 19 2022 at 04:27

nick_h_nz wrote:

Avant prog, or avant anything, challenges musical conventions. It does not set out to challenge the listeners.

What should be the purpose of challenging the musical conventions if not to challenge the listeners.

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Posted: August 19 2022 at 03:33

nick_h_nz wrote:

The majority of music isn’t made to challenge its listeners.

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https://theprogressiveaspect.net/blog/2020/02/20/giorgi-mikadze-georgian-microjamz/

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Posted: August 19 2022 at 03:05

David_D wrote:

nick_h_nz wrote:

I think you would do well to disregard the notion of what is (or is not) challenging, as it really does not have much to do with what is (or is not) "avantgardish".

In my understanding, challenging is an important part of the very idea of Avant-Prog.

Yes, of course it is - but NOT AT ALL in the way you have used the word. Avant prog, or avant anything, challenges musical conventions. It does not set out to challenge the listeners. Some may be challenged - but as, it seems to me, a majority of people in this thread of yours have told you, most people who listen to and enjoy “avantgardish” music are not challenged by it, at all.

As pointed out above, when you are not used to hearing microtonal music (which most Western ears are not), it can be challenging. I found it challenging when I first encountered it. It sounded dissonant and out of tune to my ears, simply because I had never heard microtones before. But now I love it, and it’s opened my ears to so much good music. Indeed, one of my favourite albums from 2020, was microtonal:

Microtonal music is the norm in many parts of the world. It is not made to be challenging, and I only challenging to most Western ears because they’ve not encountered it before. The same could be said for “avantgardish” music. It might come as a surprise, and might be challenging, the first time one hears it, but that’s about it. The majority of music isn’t made to challenge its listeners. That some might be challenged will generally have no relevance to the music being performed. And that is why I said you would do well to disregard the notion of challenging - at least, as you have used it.

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Posted: August 19 2022 at 02:37

David_D wrote:

nick_h_nz wrote:

I think you would do well to disregard the notion of what is (or is not) challenging, as it really does not have much to do with what is (or is not) "avantgardish".

In my understanding, challenging is an important part of the very idea of Avant-Prog.

It depends on what is being challenged. You could say that avant prog challenges the conventions of "typical" prog rock, be it with odd rhythms and tones or instrumentation. But, that is different than a particular person finding the music to be challenging. Some people find death growls to be challenging to listen to. Does that make death metal an avant garde form of metal?

I find listening to auto-tuned, processed, formulaic pop music to be challenging to listen ro. The makers of that music obviously aren't setting out to challenge any conventions.

I think Nick is pointing out that you had described 'challenging' to be subjective to the listener.

I could be wrong about this as I am only 'half-listening' on the conversation.

So, to add to the music part of this discussion, I find microtonal pieces to be challenging at first. I don't recall if it was here, but consider The Mercury Tree's Spidermilk. Composed using microtones of 17 notes per octave.

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Posted: August 19 2022 at 02:25

I'd like to mention one more album which I enjoy in it's entirety quite a lot today, but that is after having listening to it

really many times over the period of 16 years. It is:

Can (D) - Future Days (1973)

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Posted: August 19 2022 at 01:38

nick_h_nz wrote:

I think you would do well to disregard the notion of what is (or is not) challenging, as it really does not have much to do with what is (or is not) "avantgardish".

In my understanding, challenging is an important part of the very idea of Avant-Prog.

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Posted: August 17 2022 at 15:04

I also should have mentioned Mekano.

Miriodor has made a lot of great albums, but they took messing with their listeners to a totally different level on that one!

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Posted: August 17 2022 at 05:07

RockHound wrote:

The avant-ish albums I really like aren’t so much the ones that are abstract as the ones that totally mess with your head.

Prime examples:

My Life in the Bush of Ghosts
Studio Tan
Edit Peptide

The League of Gentlemen

Very nice list!

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Posted: August 17 2022 at 03:43

RockHound wrote:

The avant-ish albums I really like aren’t so much the ones that are abstract as the ones that totally mess with your head.

That's interesting, RockHound.

Edited by David_D - August 17 2022 at 03:48

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Posted: August 17 2022 at 02:54

Btw, talking about contradictions.... Wink

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Posted: August 16 2022 at 18:53

The avant-ish albums I really like aren’t so much the ones that are abstract as the ones that totally mess with your head.

Prime examples:

My Life in the Bush of Ghosts
Studio Tan
Edit Peptide
The League of Gentlemen

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Posted: August 16 2022 at 13:49

Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Paul lives in an alternative univers where Magma aren't Zeuhl, Caravan aren't Canterbury, Amon Dull II aren't Krautrock and PFM aren't RPI.

I couldn't possibly comment on Amon Dull II, Magma or PFM as I've never listened to those three bands, but since when have Caravan not been part of the Canterbury Scene when they're from the Canterbury area? LOL

They've been around so long, I'm surprised that they're not paleo-prog and neo-prog at the same time, sort of a poly-prog band.

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Posted: August 16 2022 at 11:06

Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Paul lives in an alternative univers where Magma aren't Zeuhl, Caravan aren't Canterbury, Amon Dull II aren't Krautrock and PFM aren't RPI.

- even I'm not sure, I agree. Big smile

I'd like also to thank you, Ian, and praise you for your very constructive respond to my OP, even you, if any, might have questioned my use of "avantgardish".

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Posted: August 16 2022 at 10:35

Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Paul lives in an alternative univers where Magma aren't Zeuhl, Caravan aren't Canterbury, Amon Dull II aren't Krautrock and PFM aren't RPI.

Edited by Psychedelic Paul - August 16 2022 at 11:38

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Posted: August 16 2022 at 10:02

Paul lives in an alternative univers where Magma aren't Zeuhl, Caravan aren't Canterbury, Amon Dull II aren't Krautrock and PFM aren't RPI.

Edited by Nogbad_The_Bad - August 16 2022 at 10:03

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https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/

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Posted: August 16 2022 at 09:58

David_D wrote:

You're more active in this thread than I imagined, Paul. Thanks Smile

You're welcome! It helps that I can define my own idea of what is "Avant Prog" instead of keeping strictly to PA's definition. If you like the haunting sound of Jacula, then you may like Antonius Rex too, as they're both from the same Italian vineyard, so to speak. Smile

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