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Your fave "avantgardish" Progressive Rock albums?

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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=129543
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Topic: Your fave "avantgardish" Progressive Rock albums?
Posted By: David_D
Subject: Your fave "avantgardish" Progressive Rock albums?
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 04:01

Being a kind of proud to like some of the more avantgardish Prog albums, I've got the idea and wish for this thread. 

It's up to you what to think of as "avantgardish" in this context, but I have in mind those albums which you 

like/listen to, but which are particularly challenging for you. 


For me it's mostly what I consider to be some Avant-Prog and Zeuhl albums, and my list looks like:


Magma  (F)  -  2:1001º Centigrades   (1971)

King Crimson  (UK)  -  Larks’ Tongues in Aspic   (1973)

Magma   -   Üdü Wüdü    (1976) 

Heldon  (F)   -  Heldon 6. Interface  (1977) 

Eskaton  (F)  -  4 Visions   (1979, 1981) 

Voivod  (CAN)  -  Nothingface   (1989)

Bondage Fruit  (J)  -  II  (1996)

Taal  (F)  -  Skymind    (2002)  

Univers Zero  (B)  -  Clivages   (2010)

Swans  (USA)   -  To Be Kind    (2014) 


not on PA:

Aesma Daeva  (USA)  -  The Eros of Frigid Beauty  (2001)


And enjoy youself! Tongue


       Edit:

To avoid misunderstandings let me point that I use here the word "avantgardish" in its basic meaning which is 

"favouring or introducing new and experimental ideas and methods" (according to Oxford Languages).



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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond



Replies:
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 04:09
5 stars 2012: Dead Can Dance - Anastasis -  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLoIDt_C5y1LuemFe_w43gg8ebhsmUmNbn" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLoIDt_C5y1LuemFe_w43gg8ebhsmUmNbn


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 04:17
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

It's up to you what to think of as "avantgardish" in this context, but I have in mind those albums which you like/listen to, but which are particularly chalenging for you.

That’s an almost contradictory definition, if I go by like - though less so if I go by listen to. But I have to say that the idea of something being particularly challenging is not a good indicator for me of anything even vaguely avant garde.

If I’m to generalise, I find most neo-prog particularly challenging, and very little RIO/Avant to be challenging at all.

The albums I like that can still almost be challenging to listen to for me are likely to be those with extreme vocals. I like a lot of Tech/Death and Exp/Post music, much of which has extreme vocals - and I have never been a fan of extreme vocals. I used to find any of this music “particularly challenging”, but now I would describe very little of it that way. Some is still too much (too challenging?) so I simply don’t listen to it anymore.

There is, therefore, nothing I can think of (off the top of my head) which actually fits your definition of “avantgardish”.



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 04:57
I'd say the albums that took the longest to connect with me. The first two were well over a decade

Captain Beefheart- Trout Mask Replica
Henry Cow - In Praise Of Learning
Upsilon Acrux - Radian Futura
Electric Masada - At The Mountains Of Madness

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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 05:11
^ Funnily enough, that would probably work out the same for me, as my previous post.

I think the one band that took the longest time for me to connect with, and which I found the most challenging was Opeth, and therefore the most “avantgardish” albums for me, in my collection, by David’s definition are probably “Blackwater Park” through “Ghost Reveries”.

I think because by the time I came to start listening to “actual” avant garde bands and artists, I had already become far more broad minded and tolerant of that which is different to the norm, that there’s not really been anything that I can recall being particularly challenging, at all.

I suspect that would have been very different, if I had attempted to listen to avant garde music earlier on in my life, and when I had been exposed to less variety and experimentation. 🤔🤷🏻‍♂️



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 05:16
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

It's up to you what to think of as "avantgardish" in this context, but I have in mind those albums which you like/listen to, but which are particularly chalenging for you.
Yeah I can't use that definition either. Music that's a challenge and that I like, would primarely exist outside the realms of prog. But let's say it like this: These ten albums would all be considered challenging (or pretty much unlistenable) by someone like Psychedelic Paul - and they took me some spins to love as much as I currently do. I wouldn't play any of them if we were having guests over for dinner either. Also I've never grown tired of them after listening for a decade or decades (except for The Necks who first I discovered only a couple of years ago): 

Art Zoyd - Génération Sans Futur
Jan Garbarek Quartet - Afric Pepperbird
Herbie Hancock - Crossings
Magma - Magma / Kobaïa
Univers Zéro - Univers Zéro
Igor Wakhévitch - Docteur Faust
The Residents - Mark of the Mole
Non Credo - Happy Wretched Family
Tangerine Dream - Alpha Centauri
The Necks - Hanging Gardens



Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 05:35

I can see your problem, Nick, but the most interesting for me with this thread is to see what can be challenging for people,
and how different (subjective) it can be. So, I am glad of your post, as it's quite informative in that concern, thanks. 
- But no reason to make it to such a problem as you do. 
Think more constructive would therefore still be my advice to you. Smile

My intention with this thread is also to give the opportunity to tell each other what one can find challenging,
and have good communication about it.


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 05:43
The creepy music of the  Italian-Slovenian band Devil Doll are about as "avant-garde" as it gets by the standards of my somewhat conservative musical tastes. Smile

3 stars 1989: Devil Doll - The Girl Who Was... Death -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYdcApobjTY&t=497s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYdcApobjTY&t=497s
3 stars 1990: Devil Doll - Eliogabulus -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARus_-poevk" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARus_-poevk
4 stars 1992: Devil Doll - Sacrilegium -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHu_LmvSjB4&t=407s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHu_LmvSjB4&t=407s
3 stars 1993: Devil Doll - The Sacrilege of Fatal Arms -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5uSrBgzXAs&t=1868s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5uSrBgzXAs&t=1868s
4 stars 1996: Devil Doll - Dies Irae -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PS87xpm8SoI&t=1527s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PS87xpm8SoI&t=1527s


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 05:47
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


I can see your problem, Nick, but the most interesting for me with this thread is to see what can be challenging for people,
and how different (subjective) it can be. So, I am glad of your post, as it's quite informative in that concern, thanks. 
- But no reason to make it to such a problem as you do. 
Think more constructive would therefore still be my advice to you. Smile

My intention with this thread is also to give the opportunity to tell each other what one can find challenging,
and have good communication about it.

Ah, in that case, I tend to go with the view of a couple of opinions above. What I find challenging is probably what Paul enjoys, and what Paul finds challenging, I probably enjoy! There will, of course be some crossover, where we both enjoy the same things (but I suspect there is only a very small union).



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 05:55
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

The Necks - Hanging Gardens


Good call on The Necks, adding jazz opens it up for me to other non-prog 'difficult' albums

I'll add

Steve Reich - Music For 18 Musicians
John Coltrane - Ascension

plus one more prog one 

Förträngt Hushållsarbete - Offret om att Älska...


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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 06:00
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

I suspect that would have been very different, if I had attempted to listen to avant garde music earlier on in my life, and when I had been exposed to less variety and experimentation. 🤔🤷🏻‍♂️


This is essentially my experience, I heard Henry Cow - In Praise Of Learning & Captain Beefheart - Trout Mask Replica in my teens when I was pretty much only into Iron Maiden, Motorhead, Saxon, Black Sabbath, AC/DC and the like. 

To say they were a bit of a shock was an understatement, but I did find them interesting and though it took me a decade for them to 'click' they did provide a first step towards the bulk of what I listen to these days. Hearing Larks Tongues In Aspic around the same time had the same WTF visceral reaction but I connected with that one by the end of side 1 of the first listen.


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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 06:04
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

It's up to you what to think of as "avantgardish" in this context, but I have in mind those albums which you like/listen to, but which are particularly challenging for you.
...These ten albums would all be considered challenging (or pretty much unlistenable) by someone like Psychedelic Paul - .....

You could have read my OP better as well, Saperlipopette!



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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 06:14
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

It's up to you what to think of as "avantgardish" in this context, but I have in mind those albums which you like/listen to, but which are particularly challenging for you.
...These ten albums would all be considered challenging (or pretty much unlistenable) by someone like Psychedelic Paul - .....

You could have read my OP better as well, Saperlipopette!


Actually, I think it is probably more the case that you should have read Saperlipopette’s post better. It seems to answer your OP to me.



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 06:18


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 06:22
^ I'm not sure what that Michael Jackson meme is supposed to represent, but you just reminded me of Weird Al Yankovic's video for "Eat It" Smile



Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 06:23
LOL
no worries, the others know. LOL



Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 06:25
Is 12 posts the new record for the OP questioning a response and shots fired back?

Especially when the questioned post seemed on point.


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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 06:33
I have no particular problem with the OP. I just don’t think it really applies to anything I listen to. I have so much music I already own and love, and so much on my “to listen to” list, that I don’t really feel the need to spend too much time on anything too challenging. At this stage of my life, if I’m still finding something challenging (eg most Neo-Prog), it is probably more an indication that it’s imply not for me, and I’ll quite happily, and simply, move on.

I guess perhaps David would like us to put forward our own definition of “avantgardish”, rather than stick to his. But even then, I would be reluctant, because “avantgardish” sounds so vague. I’m not a fan of genres and labels in the first place. Apart from in my role on the prog metal team, I pretty much never really pay attention to how music is labelled. It is either “music I like”, “music I don’t like”, and “music I haven’t listened to, or haven’t yet decided upon yet”. Some of what I like might be “avantgardish”, some of what I don’t like might be “avantgardish”, but I haven’t the foggiest what “avantgardish” might mean, if it is supposed to mean something different from avant garde (which surely it must be meant to, otherwise why not simply say avant garde?). Thus, I can really only go by David’s definition of his new label, which brings me back to not really knowing any “avantgardish” music at all. 🤷🏻‍♂️



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 06:55
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

It's up to you what to think of as "avantgardish" in this context, but I have in mind those albums which you like/listen to, but which are particularly challenging for you.
...These ten albums would all be considered challenging (or pretty much unlistenable) by someone like Psychedelic Paul - .....

You could have read my OP better as well, Saperlipopette!


Actually, I think it is probably more the case that you should have read Saperlipopette’s post better. It seems to answer your OP to me.


Yep, thanks:)

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Is 12 posts the new record for the OP questioning a response and shots fired back?

Especially when the questioned post seemed on point.
On point enough, but impossible (for me, and I suppose most that don't really have spesific difficulties listening to avantgardish prog) to answer the way that's being asked for. That's why I explained myself.


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 07:27
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

LOL
no worries, the others know. LOL

I'm guessing it means "Get the popcorn, because this is going to be a long-running debate." Big smile


Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 07:34
I don't have many albums like that, but this one comes to mind-

Dedalus-Materiale

Did not know what to make of it at first, but now I dig it.


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 07:37
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

LOL
no worries, the others know. LOL

I'm guessing it means "Get the popcorn, because this is going to be a long-running debate." Big smile

You got it.


Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 07:44
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

LOL
no worries, the others know. LOL

I'm guessing it means "Get the popcorn, because this is going to be a long-running debate." Big smile

also probably silly or ridiculous. Big smile


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 08:18
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

LOL
no worries, the others know. LOL

I'm guessing it means "Get the popcorn, because this is going to be a long-running debate." Big smile

I don't mind that - if more constructive than some of those before.

If for no other reason, for the sake of wellness of the PA forum. Smile


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 09:45
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

The Necks - Hanging Gardens


Good call on The Necks, adding jazz opens it up for me to other non-prog 'difficult' albums
Thanks! But I didn't actually think about adding jazz. Just forgot that The Necks aren't in the archives, really. They might as well have been. If I considered jazz, I could have replied in the way David_D's asking us to. I find these ten albums a somewhat challenging listen, but also very rewarding:
-
Khan Jamal - Drum Dance to the Motherland
Anthony Braxton - New York, Fall 1974
Sun Ra - The Magic City
Barre Philips - For All It Is
John Tchicai & Cadentia Nova Danica - Afrodisiaca
Charles Tyler Ensemble - Voyage From Jericho
Cecil Taylor - Looking Ahead!
Abbey Rader - The Thing
Sonny Sharrock - Black Woman
Steve Reid - Nova


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 09:57
It has just occurred to me that an album I’ve listened to today might count as “avantgardish”, in that I found it particularly challenging, but I like it a lot now. It’s not that it is particularly challenging, per se, so much as I found it challenging because of how different it initially sounded to my ears to previous releases from the band. To be fair, they have changed their sound/style to varying extents with every release, so it shouldn’t have been a surprise. And, once again, they’ve changed their name, which is probably another indicator that they might be sounding different. The band have also been described, though not universally so, as avant garde, so I guess that counts in their favour for this thread, too.

So for anyone who has not heard this year’s release from enPHin (formerly known as PH, formerly known as Peter Hayden, formerly known as Mr. Peter Hayden), it is a very interesting and “avantgardish” (I guess) album. Worth a listen, for sure, in my opinion.

If you don’t like it, try a different album. There’s a lot to like in their discography, in my opinion.

https://enphin.bandcamp.com/album/end-cut" rel="nofollow - https://enphin.bandcamp.com/album/end-cut



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 10:56
I found this one challenging because I wasn't expecting to use my nose to listen to it...

https://houseofspinn.bandcamp.com/album/dont-weight-for-fame" rel="nofollow - https://houseofspinn.bandcamp.com/album/dont-weight-for-fame


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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag
that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 11:24
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

I found this one challenging because I wasn't expecting to use my nose to listen to it...

https://houseofspinn.bandcamp.com/album/dont-weight-for-fame" rel="nofollow - https://houseofspinn.bandcamp.com/album/dont-weight-for-fame

Here is an album that actually was destined to be smelt, as well as heard:
https://valvemusic.bandcamp.com/album/silent-reflux" rel="nofollow - https://valvemusic.bandcamp.com/album/silent-reflux

Here’s what I wrote about it:
Originally posted by I I wrote:

 This album has been a long time in gestation – some fifteen years or so! But if you were waiting for it, I don’t need to tell you about it, as you no doubt already possess it. Perhaps you’ve even acquired the necessary ingredients to smell the album as you listen (I kid you not – this album has an olfactory element designed to enhance listening, should you wish to follow the instructions contained with the CD). But honestly, there’s so much going on here that I’m content to forgo the multi-sensory experience and just listen. With a veritable who’s who of local avant garde artists from the likes of Knifeworld, Guapo and Chrome Hoof (and other such inter-related acts that Herington is associated with), there is a huge pool of talent. A dream team, if you will, which is entirely appropriate for an album composed from dreams. And as this is the soundtrack to a dreamworld, you can forget any conventional musical progression, as instead Silent Reflux follows the structure of dream logic.

The four main pieces (or figures, represented graphically on the cover) are inspired by four of Herington’s recurring childhood dreams. Events within dreams are often not bound by the same laws of physics and norms of social convention as those of day to day life. Thus, within the four figures, the most fantastic and unlikely scores play out as in a dream. The nonsensical logic one possesses while dreaming makes perfect sense until one wakes up, but with Silent Relux we get to hear it (and smell it, yes) awake, in all its non-linear and irrational glory. For some listeners, this could prove challenging, but I can’t get enough, and am somehow forever surprised and disappointed when it ends. Of course, it helps that I love the sounds of bassoons, saxophones and clarinets, of which there are plenty here to sink into and drift away. And as well as more conventional instruments such as piano, guitar and drums, there is all manner of percussion (including glockenspiel), saz and oud, cellos, viola and violin. A veritable cacophony or cornucopia, depending on your preference.

Reflux is the flow backwards through a vessel or valve (or V Ä L V Ē), and so Silent Reflux seems a wonderful title for an album that takes us back in time, not just to Herington’s recurring dreams of childhood, but to splendidly outrageous music vaguely reminiscent of ’70s avant garde artists such as Henry Cow – or being removed out of the flow of time completely. It’s all very wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff, and (at least, for me) exuberantly joyful and playful. The three shorter pieces interspersed among the four dream figures are just as enjoyable, though sonically very different. Interestingly, these are the three tracks that have had videos created for them, but I’m guessing this is so listeners can visualise the dreams in their own way, as Herington desires each listener “to have a singular and individual experience at home”. I don’t know about singular, though, as this is one series of dreams I don’t mind recurring again and again…

[EDIT] I forgot to thank you for the fart album. It’s actually rather good, in a strange sort of way. 🤪




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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 11:27
Mirthkon - Vehicle and Snack(s)
French TV - All Our Failures Are Behind Us
Miriodor - Avanti!
ni - Les Insurges De Romilly
Bubblemath - Edit Peptide
Mike Keneally - Hat and Boil that Dust Speck
Piniol - Bran Coucou

Non-prog.. All Thelonious Monk albums

I'll probably get scolded by the avant aficionados for my choices.


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 11:35

thanks, guys 



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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 11:39
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:


Here is an album that actually was destined to be smelt, as well as heard:
https://valvemusic.bandcamp.com/album/silent-reflux" rel="nofollow - https://valvemusic.bandcamp.com/album/silent-reflux


I own this album but only as a download. Love Chloe's stuff


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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 11:41
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Mirthkon - Vehicle and Snack(s)
French TV - All Our Failures Are Behind Us
Miriodor - Avanti!
ni - Les Insurges De Romilly
Bubblemath - Edit Peptide
Mike Keneally - Hat and Boil that Dust Speck
Piniol - Bran Coucou

Non-prog.. All Thelonious Monk albums

I'll probably get scolded by the avant aficionados for my choices.

Hell no, good choices one and all! I may have picked different particular albums but good choices. If you've got ni & Piniol you must pick Poil - Brossaklitt.


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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 11:55
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:


Here is an album that actually was destined to be smelt, as well as heard:
https://valvemusic.bandcamp.com/album/silent-reflux" rel="nofollow - https://valvemusic.bandcamp.com/album/silent-reflux


I own this album but only as a download. Love Chloe's stuff

Yeah, anything from the scene she is in tends to be wonderful.

Are you familiar with the PH album I mentioned earlier (or any of their previous)? (Not that there is any relation to Chlöe, so much as just a wee wonder.)

They seem to be often piled in with the Finnish neo-Kraut scene, but I think that’s trying to pigeonhole in the most convenient manner, rather than accurate. Then again, I love a lot of the music that has come out of, or is related to, the Finnish neo-Kraut scene, and I’ve never been quite convinced there is actually a genre there anyway. The label “scene” is often a giveaway that there has been a clumping together of bands and artists for convenience and marketing. (Cf the Seattle scene, or the Boston scene, etc.)



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 12:01
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Are you familiar with the PH album I mentioned earlier (or any of their previous)? (Not that there is any relation to Chlöe, so much as just a wee wonder.)

They seem to be often piled in with the Finnish neo-Kraut scene, but I think that’s trying to pigeonhole in the most convenient manner, rather than accurate. Then again, I love a lot of the music that has come out of, or is related to, the Finnish neo-Kraut scene, and I’ve never been quite convinced there is actually a genre there anyway. The label “scene” is often a giveaway that there has been a clumping together of bands and artists for convenience and marketing. (Cf the Seattle scene, or the Boston scene, etc.)


Wishlisted it on bandcamp for future listening. Sometimes those groupings work, the current London post-punk and afrobeat beat jazz scenes are certainly groups of bands interacting. Similarly the Lyon Avant scene has a massive amount of bands with common musicians.


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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 12:03
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Here is an album that actually was destined to be smelt, as well as heard:
https://valvemusic.bandcamp.com/album/silent-reflux" rel="nofollow - https://valvemusic.bandcamp.com/album/silent-reflux

I enjoyed that. Thanks for the suggestion. Thumbs Up


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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag
that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 12:15
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Are you familiar with the PH album I mentioned earlier (or any of their previous)? (Not that there is any relation to Chlöe, so much as just a wee wonder.)

They seem to be often piled in with the Finnish neo-Kraut scene, but I think that’s trying to pigeonhole in the most convenient manner, rather than accurate. Then again, I love a lot of the music that has come out of, or is related to, the Finnish neo-Kraut scene, and I’ve never been quite convinced there is actually a genre there anyway. The label “scene” is often a giveaway that there has been a clumping together of bands and artists for convenience and marketing. (Cf the Seattle scene, or the Boston scene, etc.)


Wishlisted it on bandcamp for future listening. Sometimes those groupings work, the current London post-punk and afrobeat beat jazz scenes are certainly groups of bands interacting. Similarly the Lyon Avant scene has a massive amount of bands with common musicians.

True, but the interaction and common musicians don’t necessarily mean the scene is completely of one sound or style. I mean Dan Carey has been involved with just about every album in the SE post punk scene (I tend to use that rather than just London, since Brighton is pretty much as important, and these two centres have a scene that is quite separate and different from the SW post punk scene), but he’s a member of Wet Leg, playing on their album, and as part of their live band.

In that respect, the Seattle Scene, Boston Scene, and yes, Finnish neo-Kraut scene do have the same degree of interaction and common musicians - but again, not necessarily simply one sound or style. I would never deny there might have been a scene, but to attempt to place all that occurs in that scene under one genre simply does not always work.



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 12:18
I would certainly never place it under one genre, but do consider it enough of a scene that if I'm interested in a couple of bands within the scene I'll pretty much automatically check out most of the rest of the referenced bands.

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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: mathman0806
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 12:55
This is what I think of an avantgardish.



Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 13:21
^ Ideally, avant-garnished with salad cream. Smile


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 14:11
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

I would certainly never place it under one genre, but do consider it enough of a scene that if I'm interested in a couple of bands within the scene I'll pretty much automatically check out most of the rest of the referenced bands.

Oh yeah, without doubt. I hope it didn’t seem I was disagreeing with you, because it was quite the contrary. Because I don’t care about genre, then I’m not bothered at all, if I enjoy (the mostpart of) a scene. And the importance of the scene (over genre) can be seen by Fontaines DC’s decision to relocate to London, so as to be closer to the scene they want to part of. (Will they change their name to Fontaines LDN, I ask facetiously? 😜) I freely admit that if they had not done so, I might not have paid attention to them. I had heard of them, but never heard anything from them. But knowing they were now included in the SE post punk scene, I checked out their Glastonbury set on BBC iPlayer, and was pretty much an instant convert.



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 14:58
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

The creepy music of the  Italian-Slovenian band Devil Doll are about as "avant-garde" as it gets by the standards of my somewhat conservative musical tastes. Smile

3 stars 1989: Devil Doll - The Girl Who Was... Death -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYdcApobjTY&t=497s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYdcApobjTY&t=497s
3 stars 1990: Devil Doll - Eliogabulus -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARus_-poevk" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARus_-poevk
4 stars 1992: Devil Doll - Sacrilegium -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHu_LmvSjB4&t=407s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHu_LmvSjB4&t=407s
3 stars 1993: Devil Doll - The Sacrilege of Fatal Arms -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5uSrBgzXAs&t=1868s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5uSrBgzXAs&t=1868s
4 stars 1996: Devil Doll - Dies Irae -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PS87xpm8SoI&t=1527s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PS87xpm8SoI&t=1527s

I've listened to the beginning of Dies Irae, and that was too "avantgardish" for me. Smile


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 15:06
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

The creepy music of the  Italian-Slovenian band Devil Doll are about as "avant-garde" as it gets by the standards of my somewhat conservative musical tastes. Smile

3 stars 1989: Devil Doll - The Girl Who Was... Death -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYdcApobjTY&t=497s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYdcApobjTY&t=497s
3 stars 1990: Devil Doll - Eliogabulus -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARus_-poevk" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARus_-poevk
4 stars 1992: Devil Doll - Sacrilegium -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHu_LmvSjB4&t=407s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHu_LmvSjB4&t=407s
3 stars 1993: Devil Doll - The Sacrilege of Fatal Arms -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5uSrBgzXAs&t=1868s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5uSrBgzXAs&t=1868s
4 stars 1996: Devil Doll - Dies Irae -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PS87xpm8SoI&t=1527s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PS87xpm8SoI&t=1527s

I've listened to the beginning of Dies Irae, and that was too avantgardish for me. Smile
If you don't like Devil Doll's last spine-tingling album (my favourite) then it's best to avoid all of them, or they might give you nightmares. Dead


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 15 2022 at 18:31

To be fair, Nick, due to our previous problems, my comment to your first post was too critical. Sorry about that. Smile



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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: Zeph
Date Posted: August 16 2022 at 01:57
Devil Doll clicked very easily for me and I listened to him for some time, but not something that I play a lot. RIO/Avant as a genre was something I avoided for many years. Or rather, didn’t work for me. One of the first albums that peaked my interest and I still love is Risk by Far Corner. It was a leap from my typical symphonic, but there were stuff that mde me keep coming back. It’s hard hitting and a wonderful album.


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 16 2022 at 05:43

What I've already learned in this thread is that maybe not so many people as I've imagined listen to some music they find 
"challenging". As far it concerns me, I've done it for many years, or maybe more rightly speaking, I've listened to some
music I didn't particularly like with the purpose to widen my horizon, and see if I could become more fond of it.






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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 16 2022 at 05:56
Originally posted by Zeph Zeph wrote:

Devil Doll clicked very easily for me and I listened to him for some time, but not something that I play a lot. RIO/Avant as a genre was something I avoided for many years. Or rather, didn’t work for me. One of the first albums that peaked my interest and I still love is Risk by Far Corner. It was a leap from my typical symphonic, but there were stuff that mde me keep coming back. It’s hard hitting and a wonderful album.
Devil Doll are devilishly good, if you like that kind of thing. They make Dead Can Dance sound positively mainstream by comparison. Tongue


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 16 2022 at 06:35
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

I guess perhaps David would like us to put forward our own definition of “avantgardish”, rather than stick to his. But even then, I would be reluctant, because “avantgardish” sounds so vague. 

Actually, I wouldn't say that I've defined "avantgardish". I just use it in a certain, loose way, which can be seen in my list, and no, I have no intention about you others to define it. But I guess that my OP could be put better/more precisely. Smile


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: August 16 2022 at 06:53
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

What I've already learned in this thread is that maybe not so many people as I've imagined listen to some music they find "challenging". As far it concerns me, I've done it for many years, or maybe more rightly speaking, I've listened to some music I didn't particularly like with the purpose to widen my horizon, and see if I could become more fond of it.
I would say this is what you have inferred, rather than what you've learnt, and I would (once again) caution you in your inferences, as you do often seem to come to conclusions that were not intended by the original posters. Not to say I am right, or that you are wrong, but I have seen little to nothing that suggests that people do not listen to some music they find "challenging" so much that they either don't find much challenging, and/or what you might call "avantgardish" they don't find challenging at all. I think you would do well to disregard the notion of what is (or is not) challenging, as it really does not have much to do with what is (or is not) "avantgardish".

Whether something is challenging has a lot to do with when someone encounters it. I have no doubt that a lot of the music I listen to these days, and don't find challenging at all, I would have found "particularly challenging" - perhaps even challenging enough that I might have given up - had I listened to it when I were younger, and had heard little that was outside the mainstream and conventional comfort zone. Nor have I have ever shirked from challenging music. But what challenged me when I was younger were sounds and styles like hip hop, ambient, industrial, funk, soul, and extreme metal - all styles somewhat adjacent to, or even part of, the mainstream. The avant garde (or "avantgardish") was not even in my sight - or perhaps, rather, my hearing.

Remove the idea of challenging, and I think more people might be willing to discuss the "avantgardish" music they listen to. Although it will still be difficult for many, I suspect, simply because as a descriptor "avantgardish" seems even almost devoid of meaning or definition. While I appreciate this is because you would like to know what our own definitions are, it is hard to fit definitions to a made up word from someone else. 


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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: August 16 2022 at 07:15
I'm with some others saying that often what is normally referred to as "avantgarde" is less challenging to me than some stuff that many people seem to love at first sight.

However it took me some time to get into Tangerine Dream - Zeit and Cpt. Beefheart - Trout Mask Replica, and I really love them now, so these would fit the bill. Faust (I and IV in particular) are another case of not much love at first listen, but growing later.

As is well known, I am a big Art Zoyd fan, but they won me over from the very first minute I listened to their music. Their most challenging for me, still ultimately very good album is Champ Des Larmes (there's also "Pure Noise" which even for me is too out there in unlistenable territory). Metropolis and Phase V, although clearly good albums from the get-go, offer lots to discover at repeat listening.


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: August 16 2022 at 07:31
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:


However it took me some time to get into Tangerine Dream - Zeit and Cpt. Beefheart - Trout Mask Replica, and I really love them now, so these would fit the bill. Faust (I and IV in particular) are another case of not much love at first listen, but growing later.


Those are 4 albums I thought about when originally posting on this subject.


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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: Progmind
Date Posted: August 16 2022 at 07:44
Napalm Death - "Scum" it´s a very challenging record but i dont consider Avant Garde by any way.

I agree with Lewian, in my case love at first earing Dün - Eros


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 16 2022 at 09:08
JACULA:- One of my all-time favourite "avanti-gardi" prog bands from Italy. Smile
 
5 stars 1972: Jacula - Tardo Pede in Magiam Versus - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_n40EBHi5zsYT5KyUTryGRRqfbGZKD0CPk" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_n40EBHi5zsYT5KyUTryGRRqfbGZKD0CPk
5 stars 2001: Jacula - In Cauda Semper Stat Venenum - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_khRIH1RVORarDk0w2WEtRFO-V5oaeElN8" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_khRIH1RVORarDk0w2WEtRFO-V5oaeElN8
5 stars 2011: Jacula - Pre Viam - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_l8O766bL3fSQQKqf4K5vnUrgPfk2qsm6E" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_l8O766bL3fSQQKqf4K5vnUrgPfk2qsm6E


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 16 2022 at 09:46
 
You're more active in this thread than I imagined, Paul. Thanks  Smile


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 16 2022 at 09:58
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

 
You're more active in this thread than I imagined, Paul. Thanks  Smile

You're welcome! It helps that I can define my own idea of what is "Avant Prog" instead of keeping strictly to PA's definition. If you like the haunting sound of Jacula, then you may like Antonius Rex too, as they're both from the same Italian vineyard, so to speak. Smile


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: August 16 2022 at 10:02
Paul lives in an alternative univers where Magma aren't Zeuhl, Caravan aren't Canterbury, Amon Dull II aren't Krautrock and PFM aren't RPI.

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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 16 2022 at 10:35
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Paul lives in an alternative univers where Magma aren't Zeuhl, Caravan aren't Canterbury, Amon Dull II aren't Krautrock and PFM aren't RPI.

I couldn't possibly comment on Amon Dull II, Magma or PFM as I've never listened to those three bands, but since when have Caravan not been part of the Canterbury Scene when they're from the Canterbury area? LOL


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 16 2022 at 11:06
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Paul lives in an alternative univers where Magma aren't Zeuhl, Caravan aren't Canterbury, Amon Dull II aren't Krautrock and PFM aren't RPI.

LOL  - even I'm not sure, I agree. Big smile

I'd like also to thank you, Ian, and praise you for your very constructive respond to my OP, even you, if any, might have questioned my use of "avantgardish".



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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: August 16 2022 at 13:49
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Paul lives in an alternative univers where Magma aren't Zeuhl, Caravan aren't Canterbury, Amon Dull II aren't Krautrock and PFM aren't RPI.

I couldn't possibly comment on Amon Dull II, Magma or PFM as I've never listened to those three bands, but since when have Caravan not been part of the Canterbury Scene when they're from the Canterbury area? LOL

They've been around so long, I'm surprised that they're not paleo-prog and neo-prog at the same time, sort of a poly-prog band.


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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag
that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions


Posted By: RockHound
Date Posted: August 16 2022 at 18:53
The avant-ish albums I really like aren’t so much the ones that are abstract as the ones that totally mess with your head.

Prime examples:

My Life in the Bush of Ghosts
Studio Tan
Edit Peptide
The League of Gentlemen


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 17 2022 at 02:54

Btw, talking about contradictions.... Wink


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 17 2022 at 03:43
Originally posted by RockHound RockHound wrote:

The avant-ish albums I really like aren’t so much the ones that are abstract as the ones that totally mess with your head.

That's interesting, RockHound. 




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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: August 17 2022 at 05:07
Originally posted by RockHound RockHound wrote:

The avant-ish albums I really like aren’t so much the ones that are abstract as the ones that totally mess with your head.

Prime examples:

My Life in the Bush of Ghosts
Studio Tan
Edit Peptide
The League of Gentlemen

Very nice list!


Posted By: RockHound
Date Posted: August 17 2022 at 15:04
I also should have mentioned Mekano.

Miriodor has made a lot of great albums, but they took messing with their listeners to a totally different level on that one!


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 19 2022 at 01:38
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

I think you would do well to disregard the notion of what is (or is not) challenging, as it really does not have much to do with what is (or is not) "avantgardish".

In my understanding, challenging is an important part of the very idea of Avant-Prog.


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 19 2022 at 02:25

I'd like to mention one more album which I enjoy in it's entirety quite a lot today, but that is after having listening to it
really many times over the period of 16 years. It is:

Can (D)  -  Future Days (1973)


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: mathman0806
Date Posted: August 19 2022 at 02:37
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

I think you would do well to disregard the notion of what is (or is not) challenging, as it really does not have much to do with what is (or is not) "avantgardish".

In my understanding, challenging is an important part of the very idea of Avant-Prog.


It depends on what is being challenged. You could say that avant prog challenges the conventions of "typical" prog rock, be it with odd rhythms and tones or instrumentation. But, that is different than a particular person finding the music to be challenging. Some people find death growls to be challenging to listen to. Does that make death metal an avant garde form of metal?

I find listening to auto-tuned, processed, formulaic pop music to be challenging to listen ro. The makers of that music obviously aren't setting out to challenge any conventions.

I think Nick is pointing out that you had described 'challenging' to be subjective to the listener.

I could be wrong about this as I am only 'half-listening' on the conversation.

So, to add to the music part of this discussion, I find microtonal pieces to be challenging at first. I don't recall if it was here, but consider The Mercury Tree's Spidermilk. Composed using microtones of 17 notes per octave.



Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: August 19 2022 at 03:05
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

I think you would do well to disregard the notion of what is (or is not) challenging, as it really does not have much to do with what is (or is not) "avantgardish".

In my understanding, challenging is an important part of the very idea of Avant-Prog.

Yes, of course it is - but NOT AT ALL in the way you have used the word. Avant prog, or avant anything, challenges musical conventions. It does not set out to challenge the listeners. Some may be challenged - but as, it seems to me, a majority of people in this thread of yours have told you, most people who listen to and enjoy “avantgardish” music are not challenged by it, at all.

As pointed out above, when you are not used to hearing microtonal music (which most Western ears are not), it can be challenging. I found it challenging when I first encountered it. It sounded dissonant and out of tune to my ears, simply because I had never heard microtones before. But now I love it, and it’s opened my ears to so much good music. Indeed, one of my favourite albums from 2020, was microtonal:

https://theprogressiveaspect.net/blog/2020/02/20/giorgi-mikadze-georgian-microjamz/" rel="nofollow - https://theprogressiveaspect.net/blog/2020/02/20/giorgi-mikadze-georgian-microjamz/

Microtonal music is the norm in many parts of the world. It is not made to be challenging, and I only challenging to most Western ears because they’ve not encountered it before. The same could be said for “avantgardish” music. It might come as a surprise, and might be challenging, the first time one hears it, but that’s about it. The majority of music isn’t made to challenge its listeners. That some might be challenged will generally have no relevance to the music being performed. And that is why I said you would do well to disregard the notion of challenging - at least, as you have used it.



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: August 19 2022 at 03:33
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

The majority of music isn’t made to challenge its listeners.

Although this is quite certainly true, one can find statements of avantgarde composers such as Stockhausen that make clear that challenging the listener (their listening habits) is part of what they aim at. To some extent, even though I cannot back it up by quotations (and I'd need to do some looking around to find out where Stockhausen, Ligeti, and others said what I remember in this respect), I sense some of this attitude also in some "avantguardish" prog music, and in some a supposedly cool oppositional "middle finger to those who don't get it, and we know that's many" attitude.


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 19 2022 at 04:27
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Avant prog, or avant anything, challenges musical conventions. It does not set out to challenge the listeners.

What should be the purpose of challenging the musical conventions if not to challenge the listeners.


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 20 2022 at 12:47

I guess, it would be nice with some "avantgardish" lyrics:

Aesma Daeva  -  "Overature"   (excerpt)

In darkness let me dwell

The ground, the ground shall sorrow be
The roof of despair which bares all cheerful light from me
To bar all cheerful light

The walls marble black which moistened still shall weep from me
They still shall weep forever in darkness
To bar all cheerful light

The roof of despair which bares all the cheerful light from me
To bar all cheerful light

(from the album The Eros of Frigid Beauty (2001))



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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: August 20 2022 at 13:42
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

The majority of music isn’t made to challenge its listeners.

Although this is quite certainly true, one can find statements of avantgarde composers such as Stockhausen that make clear that challenging the listener (their listening habits) is part of what they aim at. To some extent, even though I cannot back it up by quotations (and I'd need to do some looking around to find out where Stockhausen, Ligeti, and others said what I remember in this respect), I sense some of this attitude also in some "avantguardish" prog music, and in some a supposedly cool oppositional "middle finger to those who don't get it, and we know that's many" attitude.

Absolutely, and this is precisely why I said the majority. There are some notable exceptions, but the point is that they are exceptions.

(Conversely, being deliberately challenging to listeners, and/or sticking up the middle finger is not necessarily an indicator of avantgardish music. There has been plenty of that in music other than avant garde.)

Basically, I just don’t think it is a particularly useful part of any definition of “avantgardish” music to say it challenges the listeners. Much of the time it doesn’t, and just as much of the time it wasn’t intended to anyway. 🤷🏻‍♂️



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 21 2022 at 05:30

Thanks for the discussion here which I surely think makes this thread richer, and which I find especially good when as precise
as the last post of Lewian. Smile







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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: August 21 2022 at 07:52
Arnaud Bukwald ? Anyone else ?  

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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 21 2022 at 09:15
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Arnaud Bukwald ? Anyone else ?  

Roxy Music ?


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: August 21 2022 at 13:36
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Arnaud Bukwald ? Anyone else ?  

Roxy Music ?

Well, when RM arrived on the scene with their debut, it was not only avant-garde but somewhat of a shocker , as it was rather falsely described as Sha Na na, meets Elvis Presley meets King Crimson (because of Sinfield producing I guess) . I have been a fanboy since day minus 5 (as my avatar may suggest) , so I cannot qualify it as "avant-garde" but for many, the first 2 albums are quite the ride....


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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: August 21 2022 at 13:47
Anything by Eno!!  "Here Come the Warm Jets" etc.

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I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 21 2022 at 14:24
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Arnaud Bukwald ? Anyone else ?  
Roxy Music ?

Well, when RM arrived on the scene with their debut, it was not only avant-garde but somewhat of a shocker , as it was rather falsely described as Sha Na na, meets Elvis Presley meets King Crimson (because of Sinfield producing I guess) .

I won't say that Roxy Music shocked me, even the outfit was certainly remarkable even for Glam Rock to be - and I was freshly arrived from an "East European" country.


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: August 21 2022 at 15:15
This is challenging, odd-tonal, creepy and dissonant.



Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: August 21 2022 at 16:30
You missed the word fantastic

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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 22 2022 at 11:33
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Whether something is challenging has a lot to do with when someone encounters it. 

Sure, but I think it has also to do with some fundamental psychological aspects and "social heritage", and as thus is different from person to person.


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: August 22 2022 at 11:49
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Whether something is challenging has a lot to do with when someone encounters it. 

Sure, but I think it has also to do with some fundamental psychological aspects and "social heritage", and as thus is different from person to person.

I’ve not said it’s not different from person to person. It’s absolutely different from person to person. But my point is that people change. There will be very few people on this forum that could honestly say they are the same person they were ten or twenty or thirty years ago. And “social heritage” is part of that, I guess, as our “social heritage” tends to change and broaden over time, as we tend to encounter more and more people who are different from us, and assimilate some of their “social heritage”.

Thus, what is challenging most definitely is different from person to person, even when those persons are only one individual. When something occurs in an individual’s lifetime, more than anything else, is what usually makes something challenging (or not) to that individual.




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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 26 2022 at 04:58

No doubt about that what is accessible to one depends among other things on what one has been listening to before.
As a last my example of that, I can point at Anekdoten's Nucleus which I haven't been ready for before but am today,
as I meanwhile have been listening to quite a lot similarly challenging music. Being aware of that, I use to once in a while
listen again to albums which haven't been accessible to me before - but I wonder if I ever can become fond of say 
Pawn Hearts, even I like very much H to He, Godbluff and Still LifeSmile





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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 28 2022 at 03:03

Btw, concerning my use of "avantgardish", I'd say, Pawn Hearts is "avantgardish" comparing to H to He and Godbluff,
for not to talk about Still Life


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: October 03 2022 at 07:44

I'm curious about what people enjoy listening to Avant-Prog, as I suppose, it's not so much melody or rythm?


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: October 03 2022 at 08:27
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


I'm curious about what people enjoy listening to Avant-Prog, as I suppose, it's not so much melody or rythm?
Themes over melodies I suppose. But rhytm is always there - and often more intriguing than in regular prog. Let me try and illustrate something. Carabosse is the wicked fairy godmother in Cinderella - also known as Maleficent. Listen to and feel the whole complete universe (heh) Universe Zero creates for you. Can't you see it? A nice melody would ruin the whole atmosphere.


Some music is perfect for this. That's why a lot of movie scores can resemble Avant-Prog.




Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: October 03 2022 at 11:43
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


<span style="white-space:pre">     </span>I'm curious about what people enjoy listening to Avant-Prog, as I suppose, it's not so much melody or rythm?


It makes me happy. Hard to analyze. I like edginess, complexity, sharp changes, dissonance.

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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: October 03 2022 at 12:04

thanks to the both of you - interesting  Smile








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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: October 03 2022 at 13:25
I have been listening to more avant-garde music lately. Yugen and Present are new bands to me, and I dig them! It's nice to be surprised as to what will happen next. Compositions that don't follow the traditional format of verse, chorus, bridge, repeat, are refreshing.

There is melody and rhythm in most all music, some may not be our taste, but there is enough variety for all to enjoy.


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: October 03 2022 at 15:15
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

I'm curious about what people enjoy listening to Avant-Prog, as I suppose, it's not so much melody or rythm?
Themes over melodies I suppose. But rhytm is always there - and often more intriguing than in regular prog. Let me try and illustrate something. Carabosse is the wicked fairy godmother in Cinderella - also known as Maleficent. Listen to and feel the whole complete universe (heh) Universe Zero creates for you. Can't you see it? A nice melody would ruin the whole atmosphere.

Yes, sonic images or story telling, that's also what I experienced very much when listening to Henry Cow's Western Culture (1979).



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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: October 03 2022 at 15:40
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

I have been listening to more avant-garde music lately. Yugen and Present are new bands to me, and I dig them! It's nice to be surprised as to what will happen next. Compositions that don't follow the traditional format of verse, chorus, bridge, repeat, are refreshing.

There is melody and rhythm in most all music, some may not be our taste, but there is enough variety for all to enjoy.

I've become at last enough fond of Voivod's Nothingface (1989) which is quite avant-garde influenced as well.



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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: October 18 2022 at 05:09

Surely Voivod's Nothingface with its dissonant and complex sonic attack is a new challenge for me to listen to,
as well as the artwork is a challenge for my sensitive and in some ways conservative mind, even I also find 
it to be very creative and one of the very best from the 80's.  Plus that even I've got this album on vinyl, 
the digital recording and mixing of it make the sound extra hard and "hitting". But I can imagine that after some 
years and many listenings, I'll become very fond of this album - unless I'll become a bit too old for that kind. Big smile




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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: October 18 2022 at 05:36
Though my list of "avantgardish" albums would be long, I'll respond to David's definition about music that was hard to get into--the albums, bands, and styles that took the longest for me to like & enjoy.

It took me a long time to get Gentle Giant and Van Der Graaf Generator/Peter Hammill. 

Still not really liking or enjoying much from Can, Neu, Jethro Tull, ELP, Le Orme, Hawkwind, Eloy, Arena or any of the metal music sub-genres (though I LOVE atmospheric djenty music)

In general, I have an appreciation for, though do not love, much of Camel, IQ, Mostly Autumn, Tangerine Dream, Änglagård, Dream Theater, Steven Wilson/Porcupine Tree, Syd Barret-era Pink Floyd or Krautrock and RPI in general. 



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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Rick1
Date Posted: October 19 2022 at 03:17
Very few prog artists considered to be avant-garde achieved any commercial output for their music.  The most uncompromising band of them all - Henry Cow - had been more or less dumped by their label, Virgin, by 1976.  However, the question asks for our favourites so from Henry Cow it could be any of their albums.  Their 'companions', Faust, also worked in this area - The Faust Tapes is wonderful.  Later in the 70s, we got Univers Zero and other RIO/Zeuhl artists but by the 80s, the avant garde had almost disappeared....


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 04 2022 at 06:32

Mercyful Fate's Melissa (1983) is another example of an album which is not Avant-Prog or Zeuhl, but which I still can
think of as "avantgardish", and find challenging due to the rather difficult to access song "Satan's Fall" and not least
because of the satanic lyrics on this album. Unhappy 

- But it's not Prog and at most, proto-Prog Metal.




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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: Jacob Schoolcraft
Date Posted: November 17 2022 at 19:14
The term Avant-garde during the 20th century often presented within it..a style of writing which was often created through the usage of tri tones . Some tri tone interval passages are distant or rather..played quietly ..producing an eerie affect. A good example is on George Crumb Black Angels.

This particular style of writing made its path through Electronic Music of the 60s with Wendy Carlos, Beaver And Krause, Mort Garson, Ruth White and in some articles covering that part of Electronic Music history...these individuals were said to have been occultists. Aside from what music journalists printed in publication back then ...which stares you in the eye on the internet today..the most logical reasoning being that the music was inspired by either following the left hand path or just merely having a fringe interest in the underworld.

A lot of ideas in RIO derive from Bella Bartok just as it occurred with King Crimson in 73' and earlier in 1970 with Holst. . The darker sections of Univers Zero and Art Zoyd music create suspense and are theatrical sounding to degrees. It is very conceivable that a number of musicians writing this style have had dark experiences in their life as opposed to being a so called believer in the supernatural. The most horrific nightmare could inspire a musician to hear a dark melody. Whether your listening to Patricia Dallio or Rational Diet...it's a mixture of individuals influenced by a personal experience or their surroundings.



Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: November 17 2022 at 23:48
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Mercyful Fate's Melissa (1983) is another example of an album which is not Avant-Prog or Zeuhl, but which I still can think of as "avantgardish", and find challenging due to the rather difficult to access song "Satan's Fall" and not least because of the satanic lyrics on this album. Unhappy 

- But it's not Prog and at most, proto-Prog Metal.
I do love Mercyful Fate's two first albums, but this is completely nonsensical. It can be "challenging" to listen to musical reconstructions of ancient greek music - or field recordings of Gamelan music as well, but challenging alone doesn't make music avant-garde or avantgardish. Hell, loud christmas songs in a shopping mall is perhaps the most challenging - not least because of the occasional christian lyrics.


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 18 2022 at 08:19

Well, I admit that I use here the word "avantgardish" in its basic meaning which is "favouring or introducing new and 
experimental ideas and methods" (according to Oxford Languages). Smile 


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: November 18 2022 at 08:23
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


Well, I admit that I use here the word "avantgardish" in its basic meaning which is "favouring or introducing new and 
experimental ideas and methods" (according to Oxford Languages). Smile 

I don't think the word "avantgardish" is in any dictionary. 


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 19 2022 at 12:07

Meanwhile, I've got more into Magma's Üdü Wüdü (1976) - only a couple of years old purchase - so it in fact is not a challenge anymore,
and I just enjoy it.


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: edefakiel
Date Posted: November 20 2022 at 14:13
Sometimes, when I'm enjoying something like this

http://horselords.bandcamp.com/album/comradely-objects-2" rel="nofollow - https://horselords.bandcamp.com/album/comradely-objects-2

I have a minimental breakdown and think "what the heck am I doing with my life?". 



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