Does Miles Davis belong in Prog?

Saperlipopette! wrote: lazland wrote:   Are we able to agree on that and put this to bed? You can re-read your post and notice that you were far from clear enough if what you meant to write is what you wrote in this post. I can easier agree with this although you underestimate the impact Miles had.  I think you need to know a lot about the music you have strong opinions about on PA if you want people to agree with you "and put this to bed".

Edited by Kati - January 07 2015 at 20:51

Saperlipopette! wrote: Lear'sFool wrote: To Saper: (On Sonny): Ah, noted. Haven't got around to listening to free jazz yet, but what I've just read about the man would certainly put him head to head with McLaughlin for the top spot on a rock scale. You're probably right there. (On Sun Ra): Hmmm. I get the feeling that Miles would in fact have gotten the space elements from somewhere, and by your reasoning it may have actually been Williams - he knew him, which was how he ended up meeting McLaughlin. The question, though, probably will never be definitively answered. Young Tony was a huge influence on Miles mid to late 60's. So was Xenakis, Ravel, Karlheinz Stockhausen. Its more likely that some of his his more abstract ideas came from these composers rather than other jazz artists. Read Milestones or the Autobiography or both.

Lear'sFool wrote: To Saper: (On Sonny): Ah, noted. Haven't got around to listening to free jazz yet, but what I've just read about the man would certainly put him head to head with McLaughlin for the top spot on a rock scale. You're probably right there. (On Sun Ra): Hmmm. I get the feeling that Miles would in fact have gotten the space elements from somewhere, and by your reasoning it may have actually been Williams - he knew him, which was how he ended up meeting McLaughlin. The question, though, probably will never be definitively answered.

Edited by Lear'sFool - January 06 2015 at 14:48

^Well I know those Sun Ra albums very well and first of all I don't really see the connection between Miles use of space (in the late 60's) and Sun Ra's far out early to mid 60's albums. Second: most of Sun Ra's albums were mostly self-released in about 500 copies each so very few had actually heard them (Gong was one of the few) and his spacious albums were too free, avant garde and abstract to have an impact in a broader scale. You'll find spacy elements in early sixties jazz by Grachan Moncur III solo albums (and all his compositions for others), Cecil Taylor, on (An)t(h)ony Williams debut and even Chico Hamilton with Gabor Szabo if that was what it was about. Miles was a superstar compared to all of these. Sold albums all over the world, won grammies and was an innovator that influenced more musicians than the amount of records Sun Ra had sold in total up to that point.

Lear'sFool wrote: ^ Sounds like Fripp working with his fellow musicians. But here's the thing: did, say, Bruford really need that, or was it just Fripp bending his talent to make new music? McLaughlin sure proved himself a few times over before Williams introduced him to Miles, like Bruford's work on Yes's first great trilogy. Miles, then, was just giving a skilled musician a new direction. Very important, but Exposure proved that he didn't need anything else.

he proved himself to be a skilled and talented musician, yes. Just like Bruford is. None of them were visionaries or innovators in the way Robert Fripp or Miles Davis were. Especially not at that point his career. Extrapolition can't compare to Bitches Brew or In A Silent Way. Do you actually think it can?

^ Sounds like Fripp working with his fellow musicians. But here's the thing: did, say, Bruford really need that, or was it just Fripp bending his talent to make new music?

Lear'sFool wrote: micky wrote: Lear'sFool wrote: Here's something pertinent about proto-fusion: Georgie Fame and his Blue Flames, and Bruce and Baker's Graham Bond Organisation were the root of the style. Their shared guitarist? John McLaughlin. He would take his ever jazzy yet ever rockin' - and blues rockin', at that - guitar to both Miles's late '60's band, and to Tony Williams's Lifetime, two of the biggest early innovators. Perhaps it is McLaughlin who was always the single biggest innovator of the whole style. well said brother. I had wondered if someone was going to slam my alley oop. I had a feeling you might, I seem to remember you mention Tony Williams and being familiar with Emergency. Mile Davis did not wake up one morning and go... ohhh..  I need to create Jazz-Rock/Fusion. He was not the innovator... he was the validator of it. I'd have to say that Miles was an innovator, mainly with, as I said right above your post, finally bringing a truly rock-esque rhythm section to a jazz album, but of course that's an among several other greats, and like any of the other all time great innovators anywhere in music, he got it from somewhere else and then built on it spectacularly. And certainly he validated it amongst the adventurous in jazz.

yeah I see it now. I'd definitely agree with that. I do think the notion of the validation of it is of far more importance than the innovation of it. Christ it isn't exactly like you were marrying cats and dogs.. or.. ummm classical music and rock. That took balls and some notion of real innovation. 

Jazz is a slippery reflection of the blues and not far removed from Rock. Probably why there really is no set or true innovator.. I still throw my opinion towards the English.. they were the ones really exploring what you can do with music during those heady days of the 60's but the thing is.. it really doesn't matter if you get down to it. What really is?

Validation of it.  That is only something an artist of Miles Davis's stature could do.  Far more kudos deserve to go out for doing that IMO.

Lear'sFool wrote: Here's something pertinent about proto-fusion: Georgie Fame and his Blue Flames, and Bruce and Baker's Graham Bond Organisation were the root of the style. Their shared guitarist? John McLaughlin. He would take his ever jazzy yet ever rockin' - and blues rockin', at that - guitar to both Miles's late '60's band, and to Tony Williams's Lifetime, two of the biggest early innovators. Perhaps it is McLaughlin who was always the single biggest innovator of the whole style.

well said brother.

I had wondered if someone was going to slam my alley oop. I had a feeling you might, I seem to remember you mention Tony Williams and being familiar with Emergency.

Mile Davis did not wake up one morning and go... ohhh..  I need to create Jazz-Rock/Fusion. He was not the innovator... he was the validator of it.

Lear'sFool wrote: Perhaps it is McLaughlin who was always the single biggest innovator of the whole style.