Does Miles Davis belong in Prog?
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Topic: Does Miles Davis belong in Prog?
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Subject: Does Miles Davis belong in Prog?
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 14:31
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When you think of "progressive rock music" does Miles Davis come to mind? When you think of Miles Davis do you think of progressive rock music? When you listen to Miles Davis do you think, "Man, this is great prog!" ?? I bet not. While I would not argue that Miles Davis' bold musical experiments significantly contributed to the mental courage it took to take music into new and different directions--into what we call "progressive rock"--I would argue that he Miles Davis belongs within the "proto-prog" compartment for the ripple effects that his albums and concerts and interviews had on musicians in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. As proof of my case, look at Mickey and Raffa's latest polarity contest poll entitled "WINTER MADNESS: PA's Battle of the Bands": 64 of the most popular and "influential" prog bands, both past and present, which had no place, no call, no advocacy for an artist who has no less than 6 albums in the PA Top 250 Studio albums of all-time, no less than 10 albums in the PA archives with average ratings over 4.0, yet the prog rockers here on PA did not feel him worthy of a place in the polling contest of the most popular and influential artists/bands of all-time. The masses seem to be saying that Miles Davis is not prog. Therefore, it seems natural that Miles Davis does not deserve to be in the main, general files of PA. His work served to influence artist to become adventurous--perhaps to become progressive or even to become prog, but his music is not what I consider prog. His music is not what I would ever submit to a newbie as a prime example of prog (unless I were shamelessly trying to pad the prog resumé). Miles Davis belongs in Proto-prog. ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Replies:
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 14:44
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Progressive rock...? No....jazz and jazz fusion...yes. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 14:47
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When you think of "progressive rock music" does Robert Plant come to mind? When you think of Tori Amos do you think of progressive rock music? When you listen to Nightwish do you think, "Man, this is great prog!" ?? I bet not. Miles Davis belongs in Jazz-Rock/Fusion. ------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 14:50
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He is the master of fusion jazz and experimental jazz.....I would never put him in any rock category. Why would he be put in proto-prog? By the PA definition "proto" means earliest and "prog" we all connect with progrock....so by that he is not the "earliest prog rock" artist. Proto-fusion jazz makes more sense than proto-prog, but even that to me is a stretch of definitions. -------------   
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Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 15:21
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I think the expression "prog rock" is a somewhat habitually used misnomer, apart from the cases when the music in question is indeed progressive and indeed rock. Which is just a segment of "prog" as a whole. The broadest common denominator of the PA-listed albums is the quality of the music, not so much its specific style or genre. Therefore, I think a more accurate description of PA would be "progressive music archives", which would cover progressive rock, progressive jazz, progressive metal, progressive folk and a number of blended genres. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 15:51
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
BrufordFreak wrote:Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 15:57
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Yup, along with Nucleus, Weather Report, Return To Forever etc. As long as there's a Jazz/Rock/Fusion sub-genre of Prog then of course he belongs. If you don't think that sub-genre belongs under the Prog umbrella then no he doesn't along with the rest of these. Proto-Prog to me is way off, just my opinion. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 16:08
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It doesn't really matter what category he's in. I think he fits the criteria for Jazz Rock Fusion solely on the basis of a relative handful of his immense discography. His importance as an artist is as massive as anyone America has yet produced; his importance to "prog" is miniscule by comparison. This site has chosen to focus on just a thin sliver of the musical spectrum, for ease of management as much as anything else. Davis's relevance to prog lies in his contributions to Jazz Rock fusion, that is i believe the rationale for putting him there. You could make a decent argument for Proto Prog, but that would rest on the assumption that he wasn't ever a prog artist and he preceded prog. In a Silent Way was 1966, right? So maybe you're right. But back to my point. If he's on the site anyway, why change his sub? What benefit would that have? ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 16:19
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Absolutely not. Proto-ptog is certainly a better solution, but it'll never happen. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Neu!mann
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 16:36
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"Call it anything." (famous Miles Davis quotation, about his own music) ------------- "we can change the world without anyone noticing the difference" - Franco Falsini |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 16:36
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He's in Fusion because he's done some great Fusion albums. He is and always will be a Jazz God. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 16:40
of course not. Dave Brubeck is the most glaring omission from Proto-Prog IMO and should have been added the same time Davis was in Proto. While Davis did fusion albums and Brubeck did not is sort of immaterial. Fusion is and will always be on the outside of what is generally considered prog rock which of course ground zero for the site. Proto is generally assigned to that late 60's English merging. Otherwise Iron Maiden would have been labelled as Proto 'new' prog. Both Davis and Brubeck were certainly IMO important foundations for the original prog rock movement and that far exceeds any particular dalliances into the form itself Davis had (and Brubeck did not have). Great albums of course, but without his late 50's early 60's work, without theirs. Popular Music could have well been very different by the time the late 60's rolled around ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 16:40
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I've given up on what should be considered appropriate prog for this site. There are so many bands that have no, none, zero progressive attributes listed here that I don't even bother any more. At this point I think PA (despite it's name) should include all bands, as ridiculous as that seems. So Miles? Sure, why not. As long as the descriptions are an accurate reflection of the music it only serves to increase the ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: Skullhead
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 17:03
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To the experts here, what is the defining difference between jazz fusion and prog rock? What is the tipping point? Personally I don't hear much if any jazz in a lot of "jazz fusion". What about Mahavishnu Orchestra? That stuff ROCKS hard, especially live. It's surely progressive as most of the songs are in odd meters etc, and long pieces. Sure there is a lot of improvisation going on.. but isn't improv a big part of prog rock at times also? In a Silent Way and Bitches Brew sound pretty rock in the rhythm section. |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 17:12
Personally I think that jazz-fusion is just that, a genre unto itself. Honestly most of these fusion bands don't belong here because they weren't doing what the rest of the Art Rock gang was in the beginning. When ELP and Genesis were fusing classical with rock the other guys were fusing jazz with rock. It was a separate deal. But that's just what I think.  ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 17:22
| Well, a lot of fusion bands experimented with complex time signatures and long tracks, and some prog rock bands turned fusion, so that would be why fusion is included as part of the greater prog family here. |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 17:24
Oh sure, that's why I said a 'most' of them don't belong here but some definitely do. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 17:26
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He's a jazz legend, but prog? No way. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 17:26
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The similarity between Miles and Brubeck is that both of these men pushed jazz beyond it's traditional boundaries. Like the prog pioneers, they broke the barriers that were limiting their genre. The difference is that one of the things Miles did was legitimize the use of the rock rhythm section in jazz, which, from the jazz side, was the foundation of fusion. Brubeck, on the other hand, was more interested in odd time changes (a staple of the prog sound), and a blending of classical and jazz. Hence, Miles belongs in the fusion subgenre, Brubeck does not. ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 17:40
Here is my two cents, it might be bullsh*t but I do think it reflecive of the site itself. At the center you have prog rock, prog rock which is an established musical genre filled with all the dots artists need to connect if they are to be considered 'prog'. Encompassing that you have the larger form 'progressive rock' which doesn't exactly follow the established norms of prog, or considered historically TO be prog but in general deemed to be part of the movement to expand the boundries of rock. I think Fusion and much of J-R falls into this Encompassing that is the larger 'Progressive Music' which obviously includes more progressive music with less emphasis on the rock. Notablly RIO-Avant, large aspects of Krautrock, and of course electronic/ambient. Just my two cents of course but I think that is a fair synopsis of the site and how the various bands and subgenres interact. The site is not a prog rock site, and hasn't been for many years and the site, and its users are far better for it. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 18:05
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This is why we have JMA website for these discussions....it should be moved there, this is PA. -------------
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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 18:13
Except davis is here... ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 18:38
And there, here cause PA started before JMA.....clearly there are fans everywhere. IMO he does not belong in Proto-prog....by definition makes little to no sense -------------
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 18:55
I agree. Jazz rock / Fusion is accepted by many of prog fans as a sub-genre of prog and that is that. Btw, jazz rock is actually accepted by prog fans far more than it ever was / is accepted by jazz purists. The same thing is with Progressive electronic. Is Berlin School - rock? of course it's not, but it's accepted by prog audience due to its misterious, spacey atmosphere or whatever, and that is that - Tangerine Dream are here to stay. Thus Miles, Return to Forever, Mahavisnu Orchestra, Weather Report, Steely Dan, Brand X, Back Door, Oregon, Steve Tibbets and other magnificent Jazz rock / Fusion acts are here to stay.
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Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 19:47
This reflects my views quite well.  The presence of Miles is one of the oddest aspects of this site, but as one of the innovators of Jazz/Rock Fusion he most certainly deserves to be listed here. The odd thing is all of his earlier work, which is not rock in any way but is purely jazz of course. The "all releases" policy of the administrators gives us all of those recordings. Yet is not one of the main reasons people come to this site, as many have stated, to become aware of new artists and even new forms of music? For rockers, jazz is a new form - they have not heard it before. And no one is required to like anything that is listed on this site. Bitches Brew and In a Silent Way may suit one's tastes while Kind of Blue or Seven Steps to Heaven do not. Miles was among the most protean of musicians, which is his mark of greatness. From the late 60s on, his style can be described as J/R Fusion, no matter how much he experimented. To him, the labels meant nothing. It was all music to him, and that makes his work some of the most pure we have. The administrators of this site have stated they intend it to be the most comprehensive of its kind, and have succeeded. It cannot please everyone. I myself care little to nothing for most of the metal categories (although I am listening to Iron Maiden at the moment) because so much of it just sounds the same to me, yet I would never try to eliminate those categories. I understand why they are here. To simplify, Miles practically created Jazz/Rock Fusion. Note the word 'rock.' Even if not all of his albums are in that precise category, he deserves to be here. And should be heard. If one doesn't like his music, or any particular album, fine. Should we dump Genesis for going pop? Or any of those once great bands who ended up releasing pure swill, such as Triumvirat or ELP? Not at all. And again, there is an invitation here to explore. ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 20:41
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To sum up some of the observations, made in this thread: progressive music transcends the mainstream genres (or styles, or whatever), as defined by the prevalent opinions of the day. Which means it's bound to be different is some discernible way from the genres and styles it has evolved from. Maybe now is the time for a gentle paradigm shift: prog is not rock, or jazz, or avant-garde; it's a way of making music.
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Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 21:00
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Slice/dice /label/libel ! ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 10:02
Exactly my thoughts.
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 10:16
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Miles was doing avant-progressive rock in the mid 70s as well as jazz-rock/fusion before then. I am firmly in the camp of him belonging here. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 10:20
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Hi, Since we're so damn hung up on definitions, the answer would be NO. However, when it comes to "attitude", "ability" and "creativity", I would say YES, because it pushed the boundaries of a lot of music and helped the rock medium get stronger along the way. Rock music as you and I know it TODAY, did not quite exist then, and all we knew was some pop songs and singers and a few singing movie stars. There was no long cut. There was no individuality ... and if Tom Dowd is correct, Miles was not the only black man doing unusual things and specially stretching out the music ... which became a trend and one of the more important parts of "progressive" music, though nowadays everyone is bringing "progressive" and "prog" down to small songs again ... back to the top of the pops! Is that all you know? All in all, I would say that regardless of how we feel, Miles is a giant in music history in the 20th century and we should appreciate that from a historical perspective, not a stupid rock'n'roll definition and a top ten like it or not context. I would almost say that he is to jazz/rock, what a Stravinsky did for classical music many years before. We refuse to look at music in its proper context. If all you hear is a song, then Miles is a nobody, and never sold 1/100 of what some of the rap bands and the young girls sell these days! Which means, he's worthless! But then, in those days, black music was not at Kmart either! Ohhh sure! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 10:37
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Miles is on here because a couple of his albums pioneered jazz fusion. Jazz fusion is on here because jazz fusion had a mild to moderate influence on some of the seminal prog acts. Nobody ever claimed that prog archives selection process is consistent or makes any sense. That said, it is nice to have a convenient resource like prog archives for the groups that are listed. But did Miles make progressive rock? *giggles like a schoolgirl* ------------- 
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 10:37
I don't enjoy the JMA site as much, besides the fact that it is kinda hidden and PA does not help it anymore than they help PA. There were some folks there that post here, I think I remember, but in general I found the same thing here ... there is no international music or jazz ... it's all the same thing, and that got me ticked off! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 12:19
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From the PA home page: "PROG ARCHIVES intends to be the most complete and powerful http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive-rock.asp" rel="nofollow - progressive rock resource." Based on that, I never thought Miles should be here...
------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 12:47
| Miles has an entry in The illustrated New Musical Express Encyclopedia of Rock (Salamander Books Ltd. 1976 /1977) due to his Jazz rock albums released in late 60s / early 70s. It's very clear evidence that Miles was accepted by the rock journalists and the rock audience at the time when he was released e.g. Bitches Brew. So I don't see Miles' entry in the most complete and powerfull progressive rock resource as a scandal. |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 13:50
| The real connection to Miles Davis and Progressive Rock began when Miles hired very young musicians Herbie Hancock, John McLaughlin, Billy Cobham, and Tony Williams later worked with Alan Holdsworth in Tony Williams Lifetime and Holdsworth had worked in Progressive Rock bands. All of these musicians went on to forming Jazz Fusion bands like Weather Report, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Return To Forever, and loads of solo efforts of their own. They had learned something unique from Miles Davis prior to forming these bands. Some different ideology about music that came from the Miles school which delivered part of the inspiration to create new ideas on their own. This particular style of playing crossed over into Progressive Rock in the 70's when Jazz Fusion gained some popularity... I would describe it's style to be found 25% of the time in some Prog masters music and others increasingly more. Phil Collins playing drums on Argent's Counterpoints sums it up ..as you can hear that style of playing created in the 70's where Rock and Jazz fused to the experimental side of things and you can clearly hear atmospheric soundscapes in the music of Weather Report and Mahavishnu Orchestra that were later adapted for Progressive Rock. |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 14:40
And what it basically comes down to is the fact that we are fans of Miles. If he wasn't listed we would probably still be having discussions about him in the non-prog forums. So honestly it doesn't bother me at all that he's here. My answer to the question is strictly based on definitions and labeling. For the most part I don't really care. As long as I have a place to discuss all this great music with others who love it as much as I do, I am a happy guy.  ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 16:36
| Did you actually just ask that? NO! |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 17:27
But the OP is stating Miles should be in Proto-prog, which again based on that definition seems really out of place or stretching it. I think the question of him even being here on PA is another topic and I don't think that is what the OP is asking or stating. When you read that above, really makes you think should he even be listed here....bahhh!! -------------
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Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 17:28
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Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 17:55
Well, since I don't think he should be here at all I obviously think proto-prog is an absurd place for him  ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: TradeMark0
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 18:37
| I thought Bitches Brew was the definitive jazz rock fusion album. If you take Miles Davis off of the archives, you might as well remove the whole jazz rock fusion genre from the archives. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 18:45
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 19:11
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Some of you need to listen to this album: http://grooveshark.com/#!/album/Dark+Magus/4432975 ------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 19:14
One of the best. |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 19:23
| Miles Davis is Prog in the same sense Hot Rats is Prog. I love Symph Prog, but if breaking down barriers between Rock and Classical music is Prog, I don't understand why breaking down barriers between Rock and Jazz is not. I do think it's born out in its historical time when it was truly groundbreaking. Today's Jazz-Rock Fusion should not be accepted into PA unless it embraces some sort of cutting edge, but that is now and Miles Davis was way back then. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 19:40
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Ok, I was just kidding. Jazz/Fusion=Prog. Ok? ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 19:46
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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 21:57
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I'm so glad someone decided Prog Archives need a Jazz/Fusion section because I had no idea I would love this style of music so much, and I discovered it from this site. Symphonic is the only sub-genre i've reviewed more than Jazz/Fusion. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 22:20
And that. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 23:07
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seems the main thing is the generation. miles davis and dave brubeck are an older generation than rtf, mahavishnu, weather report, and their generation of players. sun ra is also in the older generation, but did some things that sound like rock. ------------- -- Robert Pearson Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 23:31
He probably doesn't belong here but since there is a jazz fusion category he does i guess. I'm more flumoxed by the fact that progressive electronic is here. I know it was influential but shouldn't it be prog related? There are a lot of strange entries here but whatever. It's still a bitchin' site  |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 00:24
Let's not forget that Chick Corea and Airto (RTF), John McLaughlin and Billy Cobham (Mahavishnu Orchestra), Joe Zawinul and Wayne Shorter (Weather Report), as well as Herbie Hancock, John Scofield, and Tony Williams, all listed on PA as J/R Fusion artists, were all players for Miles. ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 00:38
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If we accept that Jazzrock-fusion has a place on a progressive rock site there's no way Miles Davis doesn't belong here. And it would be ignorant not to accept it as Jazz fused with rock is an essential ingredient of practically every single subgenre on PA (except Progressive Electronic and maybe Progmetal) and probably the main approach in Zeuhl, Canterbury, RIO, Krautrock and Indo Raga. Listen to Bitches Brew, Fig Fun, Miles In The Sky, Get Up With It, Filles De Kilimanjaro, In A Silent Way, A Tribute to Jack Johnson, On The Corner, Get Up With It, Agharta, Pangaea, Black Magus, Water Babies, Live-Evil and tell me he doesn't belong in Jazzrock-fusion. Not only does he belong in JR-F - Miles is the genres no. 1 most important artist. He recorded this 33 minute long Jazzrock-masterpiece in 1967! |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 02:42
LOL. PA is the king of saying one thing and doing another. But like I said earlier, it is nice to have a resource for these albums even if they are not prog. My complaint is that this inclusiveness is selective. -------------
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Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 02:45
LOL. So let me get this straight... are you saying that Miles's prog credentials are almost as legit as those of Phil Collins????? -------------
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 02:51
 I'm so glad you're on the fusion team Scott! If Miles doesn't belong here, then we might as well throw out the entire jazz rock/fusion subgenre. I agree, that it's irritating to have an album like Kind of Blue adorning the top 100, but just because the software can't tell the difference between a Bop record and a prog album doesn't mean we should remove the artist responsible for the Bop. He's here because he basically started fusion. There would be no Mahavishnu, Weather Report or Mwandishi if the players hadn't all met up during the Bitches Brew sessions. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 04:41
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I don't know understand the Rock in Miles Davis's music, to me it's Jazz. Don't belong here. ------------- Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness. Emile M. Cioran |
Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 06:12
Or maybe just jazz so avant-garde, broad-minded and complex that one can find in it (or imagine into it) references to a couple of dozen genres and styles?
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Posted By: PrognosticMind
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 08:17
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Miles Davis = Jazz Fusion/Jazz Rock. ------------- "A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous. Got me?" |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 08:39
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Absolutely ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 08:43
Listen to mid 70s works like Agharta, Pangaea, Dark Magus....you'll find virtually no jazz there. Certainly Bitches Brew has a strong rock component as well. Ya know...jazz-rock! |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 08:49
What? No. Circle in the Round is mainly jazz and psychedelic rock fused together.
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 09:29
......Miles Davis influence is extremely distant from a percentage of Progressive Rock in the world. Pulsar, Omega were like Pink Floyd where they approached music like theater. "European Rock opera" mentality more often dismisses large doses of Jazz. With the exception of 10CC who were a bit 1920's or "Big Band era" and a few others, you wouldn't hear any emulation/reflection of ANY particular sound existing in the Avant-Garde Jazz style of Miles. Basic evidence of any influence from Miles Davis to Prog was usually found in the 70's Fusion bands, but it was easy to pick up on the fact that Phil Collins was attempting Tony Williams style in some of the Genesis songs. Ian Mosley, Bill Bruford, Pip Pyle, and Curt Cress all displayed that idea to be more "Avant-Garde on the drums and with Miles Davis...he had this going on musically with a long list of drummers a decade before Progressive Rock existed. Let's say for example that the aforementioned drummers had no interest in Miles Davis....but it wouldn't matter in the real world if they didn't..because the ideas Miles Davis left behind were tools to work with for creating styles of new music in the 70's, ...and most musicians unknowingly borrowed his ideas to create. I believe Miles Davis created these premature ideas and concepts for music that slowly entered into what became other genres. The intro of " A Passion Play" has a heartbeat or a kind of thump ..surrounding by distant swirly sounding keyboard effects. They still sound distant like an atmospheric hypnotic calling by the time the heartbeat has grown louder and then...the haunting melody of "A Passion Play" is now being played on the sax. I heard Miles Davis creating this kind of soundscape in the 60's...where his trumpet has an echo or 3 second delay over top of a bass sustaining note and swirling distant sounding keyboards. Miles Davis formed/shaped ideas for future generations of musicians. All the strange open chord voicings used by John McLaughlin in Mahavishnu Orchestra were used in the music of Miles Davis first and then later ...many of those chord voicings were written all over the music of Happy The Man, Brand X, Bruford, Gong (with Steve Hillage), Steve Hillage, Hatfield and the North, Univers Zero, King Crimson, National Health and many others. Miles Davis had contributed a style to playing over these oddball chord voicings and I've heard it repeated like a reflection by many of the 70's sax and horn players who worked with established Progressive Rock bands. Miles Davis created ideas and their foundation which was naturally adapted to Progressive Rock music.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 10:19
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Hi,
I simply think that as long as we keep thinking of all this as "genre's" and not music, that we will never agree on anything. If you see music in a different perspective, with everything helping and influencing everything, then Miles is a huge GIANT in the 20th century music ... but getting these folks to even see the Tom Dowd DVD, so they can learn something about American music history ... is like talking to one of Nurse Ratchet's patients! They all know everything and they all know nothing ... and gotta have more dope! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: TradeMark0
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 10:28
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Wow, I never realized Miles Davis was that important to the development of prog. |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 10:55
It should be categorized so maybe people can make "quick reference" during a conversation..otherwise it will make no sense to them as how the conversation in general..can be categorized. Everything has to be categorized for history reference. The obvious side to revealing a mistake when applying this basis of communication is the evidence that Popol Vuh are truly not what most people define Progressive Rock to be. Popol Vuh is not necessarily "piegon holed" by the law of nature and that confuses people with a misunderstanding on how to place their music along side a term. There's still a large number of Rock journalists who are "buggers" and go for the sensationalized drama of an artist's story more than the details of how influential they are. We have Eric Clapton with his public historical details,...such as he originated during the British Blues Boom era with The Yardbirds..then moving into Cream and the mention of how influential they were and then his solo career. Then when we get back to the real world and wake the hell up, we realize that there were loads of bands from the British Blues Boom era that were so incredibly innovative to music and they have zero media coverage on Blues documentaries and zero radio airplay..short of the after hours radio programs which play real music, these bands do not get credit. So...placing a term on a style of music bothers me when it's for a ulterior motive. Ultimately...it seems vital to place a style of music into a category and invent a name for it. In the world of a musician it is not. The terms exist, but are not given much attention when music, is simply music. When music is placed in front of you in the orchestra pit, or maybe no manuscript at all and instead you're asked to create, everything becomes more about "sound" and notes flowing to make that "sound". That world is separate to live in.
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Posted By: terramystic
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 15:39
This sure is progressive. But does it rock? OK. Maybe this kind of music could be seen as rock in the most avant form. But Kind of Blue in top prog rock albums? Are you kidding? |
Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 15:59
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Maybe where some of you are confused is that jazz uses the same trap drum kit as rock.
------------- -- Robert Pearson Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 17:47
Two pertinent points here. Categories serve a purpose but ultimately that purpose breaks down, like any metaphor or simile. The categories are most useful for those new to the subject - it helps them understand what they are experiencing. But for those of us who have been listening seriously to music for decades, those categories become more of a hindrance than a help. I used to organize my music collection by category but had so many that crossed over from one to another I abandoned that method. This is why Jeff Beck sits next to Beethoven on my shelf. Why Motorhead precedes Mozart and Vai nestles with Vangelis. Now it is all music. And that relates to what Miles himself once said, "It's music and I like it." He transcended existing categories and here we are arguing over what category he belongs in. It is like saying Buddha was a fool because he did not understand Socratic principles. Truth be told, Miles is his own category. His roots are Jazz for sure, and he never abandoned them, but he changed what we regard as Jazz. In this process he merged it with rock, and changed the nature of that as well. If Jazz/Rock Fusion belongs on this site, if we regard RTF, Weather Report, etc. as both Jazz and Rock, then again Miles belongs on this site. ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 18:01
Kind Of Blue is not even fusion; it's one of the first (partially) modal jazz albums. In that capacity, it's very progressive. Which makes it progressive music. Stop calling prog "progressive rock", and all these arguments will be settled for good.
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 19:22
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If Miles had only done albums like Kind Of Blue, which is one of those must have in your collection. I think it is also of note that several of the musicians he has worked with have gone on to be part of the jazz-rock community. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 20:02
^ That's absolutely correct; off the top of my head Joe Zawinul, John McLaughlin, Chick Corea and Marcus Miller (to mention the fusion folks only). Which still doesn't make Kind Of Blue a fusion album 
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 20:40
God Miles Davis was at the forefront of prog a pioneer before even prog name was invented. Avant Garde alone means experimental new ideas! New concepts. Never been done before unlike prog which to date especially means within a certain scope! Album Bitches Brew, too many to mention but known names who collaborated on his album are Chick Correa and John McLaughlin among so many other greats! 
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 20:46
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 20:47
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 20:50
I love him!  
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 20:52
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Wow oh wow this post made me listen to what I love, I am heaven right now, all these prelililipupu's are a dream
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 21:48
| Who said Miles Davis does not belong in prog? |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: December 10 2014 at 00:21
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: December 10 2014 at 04:38
Yes it rocks. How about actually trying to listen to some of the mentioned albums? It doesn't rock like Elvis or AC/DC but very little on PA does. No one has ever said Kind of Blue is prog rock, silly. Milestones, Birth of the Cool isn't prog either but a decade later Miles still made a dozen of jazz-rock-fusion classics. |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: December 10 2014 at 04:52
Fox 29 News |
Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: December 10 2014 at 04:59
Originally, Attila the Hun did, but most of historians today tend to agree he was just being passive-aggressive
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: December 10 2014 at 05:07
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Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: December 10 2014 at 05:07
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If this web site is really Progressive Archives, ok for Miles Davis, but if it's Progressive Rock Archives, no. ------------- Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness. Emile M. Cioran |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: December 10 2014 at 05:33
Listen to his jazz-rockfusion albums!!! If you're ok with Jazz-rockfusion being here as a sub genre Miles is essential.
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: December 10 2014 at 06:28
Yep, this is quite clearly what we need. A split! I vote that we immediately set up Progressive Archives, Progressive Rock Archives, Prog Archive, Prog Rock Archives, because, of course, we argue endlessly about Prog and Progressive, Proto Progressive Archives, Proto Progressive Rock Archives, Proto Prog Archives, Proto Prog Rock Archives, Progressive Related Archives, Progressive Rock Related Archives, prog Related Archives, Prog Rock Related Archives........ I think I will go back to work now ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: December 10 2014 at 07:38
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As a jazz musician, I have to tell you that Miles Davis is as prog as the Spice Girls. A lot of the experimental jazz of the late 50's - Davis, Coltrane et al, and even of the 40's - Charlie Parker and fellow beboppers - was basically an influence for "progressive" forms of music. But that doesn't make it prog. It makes it jazz. It's already been labelled. And Miles went through several different musical styles, as did most jazz musicians. I see a lot of music mislabelled on Prog Archives, and this is definitely one of these occasions. Prog ? No. Definitely not. ------------- |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: December 10 2014 at 07:55
As a NONE Musician but a Jazz aficionado I am stunned with your remark above. I love jazz for the 8 years I lived in Holland I never ever missed the North Sea Jazz Festival (plus I do know Gerry Mulligan is white, not black ;) hihihihi )
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: December 10 2014 at 08:07
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to be honest we continue to call recent music prog, but this is not necessary true, all has been done before thus what we get are variations of it. This said prog is a brilliant word to classify and pin point people to what they like and enjoy this genre of moozik.
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: December 10 2014 at 08:16
That's an unfortunate consequence of the way this site operates, whereby if an artist is added then their complete discography is represented here. Obviously Kind of Blue is not progressive rock, but it's here, gets rated very highly, and makes it's way to the "top of" list. Album tagging would help alleviate this, but there's far too many artists and albums now to go down that road. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: December 10 2014 at 08:23
But you would agree that Miles was at the forefront of jazz-rock/fusion, and because that genre is represented here then it is appropriate for Miles to be here. Now, if you think JR/F itself shouldn't be here, you're certainly entitled to that opinion, but it's a separate matter. |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: December 10 2014 at 08:35
Miles Davis both with Bitches Brew or Sketches of Spain if this does not belong here I really don't know what does, I am not a sheep btw, as I do not like a all prog moozik although my taste tends to favorite this genre.
hugs, |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: December 10 2014 at 08:53
hahahaha!!!
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Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: December 10 2014 at 09:37
Precisely. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: December 10 2014 at 10:08
| Sorry. Everyone who think Miles does not belong here - yes including you mr Davesax jazz musician - is uninformed. We all know 40's 50' jazz isn't prog but most if not all of Miles 1968-74 releases are jazz-rock fusion.. which is a sub-genre on PA. Do you all want that sub genre removed? Is that it? |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: December 10 2014 at 12:10
Bitches Brew and Sketches Of Spain are my favorite.
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Posted By: King Manuel
Date Posted: December 10 2014 at 12:32
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Never understood why he is listed on PA! A Jazz Maestro and Innovator for sure, but Prog Rock, well, don't think so. ------------- Don't Bore Us, Get To The Chorus |
Posted By: RockHound
Date Posted: December 10 2014 at 12:47
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Progressive music, definitely. Progressive rock, definitely not, IMHO. Does Miles belong on Progressive Archives? That's in the eye of the beholder - many listings here are what I would consider tangential to progressive rock. We could have the same discussion about many of the "prog-related" rock bands (oh please, let's don't).
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Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: December 10 2014 at 13:19
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Looks to me
more like if the debate is ,does “Jazz/Rock Fusion” belong in PA, and I think
is does, the progressive Rock, The Avant/Rio and Jazz/Rock Fusion have always
been closely related, and a lot of bands/ musicians work in several genres. (Gong/Bruford/Zappa to
name a few), if you agree that Jazz Rock belongs in PA, Miles cannot be
excluded. Then you will have some Jazz albums too, because there is a full
disgo policy, and so what. ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: freyacat
Date Posted: December 10 2014 at 13:32
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So, Miles Davis lost all of those fans in the 60's because he was starting to play rock. But we refuse to grant him that title? Personally, I think of "Bitches Brew" as the black "Tales from Topographic Oceans." I think of it in the same terms I think of Progressive Rock. When you really think about it, what is it that makes Mahavishnu Orchestra jazz and Larks' Tongues in Aspic rock? I do not accept the artificial boundaries. Miles Davis belongs here alongside Yes and King Crimson. ------------- sad creature nailed upon the coloured door of time |