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Topic ClosedThe top 100 isn't a reflection of reality

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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:48
Oh crap. What a pile of dog pooh this has turned into. If I had known this was going to be a whinefest for how hard done by Dream Theatre is on this site or a lame excuse to insult the people who enjoy coming here to rate, review and collaborate I honestly would not have bothered. Unhappy
 
I know what a Facebook "like" is you facetiously patronising person (hey, you started chucking the insults around, not me) - said I didn't know how to look them up, and you still haven't enlightened me on that issue - sure I can go to the band's facebook page and see the number of likes they have in total - that's not what you asked me to do and not what I asked you to demonstrate. How do I look up Facebook "likes" for all the artists represented in the Top 100? and how do I see the number of "likes" for each effin' album, including Dream Theatre's latest? Or their best (Metropolis Part 2: Scenes From A Memory)? Or their worse (no comment, I don't think any of their albums suck, though I will admit Octavarium bores me to tears, but that's not Dream Theatre's fault)? So how do I play Facebook Top Trumps?
 
Dream Theatre have sold over 12 million albums - 2.5 million "likes" is kind of what I'd expect (well, it's a bit light really, but never mind) ... Pink Floyd 18 million "likes" (yeah! I win Top Trumps!)... Yes - no official page ... Genesis - no official page ... Jethro Tull - no official page ... Rush - no official page .... It seems like Facebook doesn't quite reflect the demographic that is interested in Prog Archives and therefore not stunningly representative of reality, in reality. hmmm...16 million people "like" Guns'n'Roses - how did we miss them from our charts?
 
Facebook "likes" are a representation of what the people who have Facebook pages like, (it does what it says on the tin - see Ronseal reference below), including the 19 million people who "like" Pringles and the (same/different) 19 million people who "like" McDonald's - for crying out loud. One million more people feel the need to "like" reconstituted baked potato starch baked into a saddle shape than "like" Pink Floyd on a social networking site for the socially inept. (hey, that's our job!)
 
My heart weeps buckets for all those thousands of bands that people cannot be bothered to "like" at all, or haven't accumulated as many "like" as Ronseal "Does Exactly What It Says On The Tin" Wood Varnish. Please bring me some more freaking reality, I can always find 156,693 more on Facebook. More people like Stannah Stairlifts (your granny perhaps? mine's dead - my mum is dead too, and she never had stairs - no "upstairs" in a bungalow, [or basement come to that], so no need for stairlifts there, or Facebook, unless there is an Ouijabook) than like Discipline - looks like our reviewers don't know a decent Prog album from an electrically assisted stair-climbing aid for old folk, shame on them listening to Prog Rock instead of carrying their poor old grannies up stairs.
 
Facebook "likes" are binary - you like something or you don't - there is no quantitative measure - according to Facebook I "like" everything equally, and obviously I don't. Facebook just records that I a) saw the "like" link and b) liked it enough to click on it, and the tally of all those other people who also clicked on that "like" is merely the count of all the people who a) saw the "like" link and b) liked it enough to click on it - that's all - nothing more than that - it is not a measure of "goodness", it doesn't tell you what track three sounds like or whether the guitar solo is the sweetest you'll ever hear. All it says is that 2.5 million people who saw a link clicked it - that those people know what a Dream Theatre is and had the motivation to click a link- sure it's all nice and egalitarian - all those "likes" are equal - from the die-hard trufan whose owned every album, single and DVD and seen every tour through to the kid who saw the names scrawled in Sharpie his sister's boyfriend's school bag but hasn't actually heard them but wants to look cool and trendy to his 'friends' who also have Facebook who have "liked" those noisy metal bands like Slipknot and Linkin Park though he'd much rather listen to his mum's Adele CD in the car on the way to school but he got beaten up last time he said that.
 
All those "likes" are equal and fair because they are not judgemental or biased by such unquantifiable fripperies as "they're a good band but is this album really any good?", or "Yeah, it's a good Metal album but it's not really a Prog album is it?"... And that last point is a salient point when it comes to this web site and why we are not facebook or rate-your-musac - I were to review For Lies I Sire (48,157 Farcebook "likes" for My Dying Bride - I'll call that a healthy result) here I'd give it 3-stars because it's good but not essential Prog Metal album, but on Metal Music Archives I'd give it 4-stars because it is an excellent Doom Metal album. You may choose to disagree with that philosophy and argue that if it is a 4-star album on MMA then it should be a 4-star album on the PA, and you are free to use your own philosophy when rating albums here, as does every one (in reality), but in all honesty I cannot rate an album on a Progressive Rock site without judging its "progressive" quality in comparison to other progressive metal albums. Facebooks non-judgemental, unbiased, egalitarianism doesn't tell you anything, it's not even a popularity contest because there is no distinction between "liking" Dream Theatre and "liking" Nightwish - your 'vote' is equal for both of them but the extra 300,000 people who "liked" Nightwish more does not reflect your actual views of both bands, or the public reality of whether one Roadrunner band is better than another Roadrunner band given that they are both promoted by Roadrunner equally (Slipknot for the Roadrunner Top Trumps win if you are playing along at home).
 
Facebook "Likes" are no more a reflection of reality than the number of telephone votes on Your-Country's Got Talent for some talentless blob of lard who sold the public a hard-luck story while wailing a tuneless off-key poorly dictioned lounge ballad is a reflection of talent.
 
 
 
 
Seriously Geoff, these aren't the droids you're looking for.  
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:28
^LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:22
I don't think he realizes how short 100 words is.  He's posted like 2000 words in this thread, today, alone.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:13
Ya know, this tired old cliche shows the OP has no clue...

1) you have to review albums to really have your vote count, and it has to be 100 words or more.
So basically...you're rewarding the dudes who live in their mother's basements and have no life


The vast majority of the collabs on this site have careers and/or wives and/or children, and yes, interesting lives.  We have doctors, teachers, engineers, admin professionals, musicians....a wide spectrum of people from all over the world.  They donate their time here for something they enjoy.  Drop the attitude and people would actually be happy to welcome you.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:07
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

 
I have started to try to review albums, but I never took creative writing - I'm a computer programmer who grew up in a musical family and played piano and sang in chorale.  So I think my opinions on the subject of music count for something and should be given the 10 points...but I don't know what to say about an album other than "I liked it" or "I didn't like it." 

Man, reviewing albums is kind of hard for me. My first reviews were awful, and only improved in quality very slowly, but you eventually get an idea of how you want your reviews to be like. Now, I'm comfortable with them. You should go ahead and write your bad reviews and you'll get better as you review more often.This, however, will make the process of becoming a Prog Reviewer way more difficult, if you have that aspiration at all.


Anyway, I have no idea what you were talking about but I thought I should try to inspire you. I assume this thread is probably a sh*tstorm of sorts, as are most threads.


Edited by colorofmoney91 - April 29 2012 at 18:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:07
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

  It's tough to review an album, after all the great Frank Zappa himself said "writing about music is like dancing about architecture."


Maybe Zappa was a lousy writer who wouldn't do a good job?



I always thought he meant it was rather pointless


In that case, he's just wrong.  People who have written about music have encouraged me to buy or bypass it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:01
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

  It's tough to review an album, after all the great Frank Zappa himself said "writing about music is like dancing about architecture."


Maybe Zappa was a lousy writer who wouldn't do a good job?



I always thought he meant it was rather pointless
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 17:59
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:


If your point is that the tastes of PA people are different to those of people from other websites, that's fair enough. SmileAnd I think it's also fair to say that prog fans' tastes are a bit eccentric when compared to "normal" tastes, so there shouldn't really be any surprises about this.


Well, I'm sorry if I ticked anyone off.  But I do think it is a little ridiculous that a member is trying to get another member's review removed because he isn't a good enough creative writer.  It's tough to review an album, after all the great Frank Zappa himself said "writing about music is like dancing about architecture."


Maybe Zappa was a lousy writer who wouldn't do a good job?

The review in question said almost nothing about the album and insulted other reviewers and whined about the rating other reviewers gave it.  I don't see why that review should stay because it isn't a review of the album in any sense that satisfies 100 words.  It adds nothing to the value of this site or community. 

So that has nothing to do with creativity- it has everything to do with being a crybaby.

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


I have started to try to review albums, but I never took creative writing - I'm a computer programmer who grew up in a musical family and played piano and sang in chorale.  So I think my opinions on the subject of music count for something and should be given the 10 points...but I don't know what to say about an album other than "I liked it" or "I didn't like it." 


That's a start though!  Identify what aspects of an album stand out for you (either good or bad).  Comment on melody, structure, dynamics, etc- whatever you think is worth commenting on.  You can also draw comparison to similar bands or albums to provide a frame of reference.  Remember that the ultimate purpose of the review is to either recommend it or not recommend the album to others.

Perhaps if you began writing some reviews, you could get your Progressive Metal friends to check out your reviews.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 17:46
^ I didn't have time to check out the discussion about that particular review in much detail, but my impression was that those who were against it (Epignosis, Atavachron, Ivan) were so because it violated one of our reviewing guidelines (no comments about other people's tastes and reviews), while the one person saying that the review is rubbish (ExitTheLemming) also said that it's fine with him.

With the rest of your reply I completely agree. It should be said though that PA is somewhere at the middle of the ladder of pretentiousness, as we ourselves our looked down by others, like the guys from that forum where they said that PA is a bunch of dudes with a hard-on for Marillion (how low of us). LOL


Edited by harmonium.ro - April 29 2012 at 17:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 17:32
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:


If your point is that the tastes of PA people are different to those of people from other websites, that's fair enough. SmileAnd I think it's also fair to say that prog fans' tastes are a bit eccentric when compared to "normal" tastes, so there shouldn't really be any surprises about this.


Well, I'm sorry if I ticked anyone off.  But I do think it is a little ridiculous that a member is trying to get another member's review removed because he isn't a good enough creative writer.  It's tough to review an album, after all the great Frank Zappa himself said "writing about music is like dancing about architecture."  I have started to try to review albums, but I never took creative writing - I'm a computer programmer who grew up in a musical family and played piano and sang in chorale.  So I think my opinions on the subject of music count for something and should be given the 10 points...but I don't know what to say about an album other than "I liked it" or "I didn't like it."  And the point I'm trying to make about pretentiousness comes from a background of trying to get people in the Progressive Metal scene to come on this site and rate albums.  I know there are Progressive Metal bands that ought to be higher on those lists.  But I don't think the general Progressive Metal crowd likes to hang out here.  One person told me they wouldn't bother to even click the star rating on this site because it was a waste of time as this is a community of pretentious snobs.  I've tried to analyze why that would be and my thought was that it might have to do with the way this site gives more weight to some ratings over others, and thought maybe that was skewing things.  But maybe it's just that Progressive Metal fans see that there aren't many other Progressive Metal fans on this site to begin with, and decide this place isn't for them.  I'm going to stick around, stubborn as I am, and maybe that will start to change.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 17:07
If only we could somehow arrange a worldwide poll . . . Ermm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 16:44
Hey Geoff,

If your point is that the tastes of PA people are different to those of people from other websites, that's fair enough. SmileAnd I think it's also fair to say that prog fans' tastes are a bit eccentric when compared to "normal" tastes, so there shouldn't really be any surprises about this. Myself I also know a few bands that are fairly popular in the "outside world" but don't fare as well on PA, and I don't have a problem with that. I can only hope you don't think that if our tastes are different to those displayed on generalist websites such as Last.fm, RYM and others, then we are "wrong" in our  tastes (which are a subjective thing 100%). They're just our tastes.

But if you claim that by giving extra weight to certain people we are distorting the tastes of the general PA community, that's not true and it can be seen why very easily: if you compare the general charts for each recent year to the collaborators' own yearly top, you can see that the two lists are very different and that collaborators pick albums that don't really make it very high in the charts. Would the weight given to collabs skew the charts in favour of their tastes, then the two kind of lists would be similar, but they are not.

Here's a comparison for the last three years:

Collabs' list for 2011 / General chart for 2011 (Collabs rated highly four albums that don't feature in the general chart's top 10, one of which is the last DT album.)

Collabs' list for 2010 / General chart for 2010 (only three of the Collabs' top 10 can be found in the general chart's top 10! It's also interesting to see that the #3 is on #40 in the general chart. [But that doesn't compare with the Collabs' #1 for 2006 being on #96 in the general chart! ShockedLOL])

Collabs' list for 2009 / General chart for 2009 (again only three of the Collabs' top 10 can be found in the general chart's top 10; the Collabs put Transatlantic in the top 10, the general chart doesn't.)

As you can see, the impact of the Collabs' top preferences over the general chart that sums up all the ratings and reviews on PA is not at all great.


Edited by harmonium.ro - April 29 2012 at 16:57
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 16:08
Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:

You said that the Top 100 only reveals what's popular. I'm pretty sure 50k people clicking "Like" on Rush's website and having bands like Kayo Dot not even reaching 2k reveals that Facebook has the same flaw. 

Stop whining about how Top 10 isn't composed solely of DT releases. 

I'm not whining about that.  This discussion started in a thread where someone was trying to get another person's review removed from the site because the reviewer accused the site of being pretentious based on the paragraph that warns against giving albums 5 stars.  And I was making the point that, while the review was horrible, the "pretentious" argument is not far from the truth.  I was arguing that the system that rewards more points to people who review the albums and even more to people who have stuck around long enough to become "collaborators" is what is skewing the system.  And when I was challenged to prove my opinion, I did it in the only way I knew to bring out numbers that support my argument.  Why does Rush only have 50k?  Maybe because they've been around so long that they aren't generating enough excitement to bring in the younger crowd.  But you HAVE to admit that it is a little strange that an album whose band has only 790 "likes" on Facebook is at place number 1 for the year, while an album whose band has 2.5 MILLION likes, and that sold enough copies to make it to place #6 overall on Amazon, and place #8 on the Billboard chart, and got a grammy nomination is at place #18 on the list.  Do I think every DT album should be 5 stars?  No.  In fact I have not rated all their albums that way.  Some of their albums SUCK.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 15:51
You said that the Top 100 only reveals what's popular. I'm pretty sure 50k people clicking "Like" on Rush's website and having bands like Kayo Dot not even reaching 2k reveals that Facebook has the same flaw. 

Stop whining about how Top 10 isn't composed solely of DT releases. 
Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 15:46
Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:

This must be a joke. 

And the Facebook argument is one of the main reasons.

Um, no.  If you honestly think 2.5 million vs. 790 means nothing, YOU are the joke.  Wake up, the top 100 is not a reflection of reality.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 15:43
The only reality in facebook likes is that they are the result of thoughtless clicks by people who want to be 'part of the group', regardless of what the 'like' is about. Failing to accept that is more pretentious than any prog fan on this site will ever be.

If you need reality, you'll never find it on Facebook, ProgArchives, nore in old fashioned paper music journals. Reality is what we live in every day, and what we write on paper or the internet is only a filtered record of our perception of that reality. Looking at a top 100 and wondering why it doesn't reflect reality is pointless - your looking at a once more filtered result on said records. Maybe it's someone else who spent too much time in an, albeit different, basement.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 15:32
In other news:

DTLOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 15:27
This must be a joke. 

And the Facebook argument is one of the main reasons.
Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 15:24
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Dean,


I know I'm not Dean, but maybe I can save him some time, although I shouldn't have to worry about that since he obviously has no life.

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


1) you have to review albums to really have your vote count, and it has to be 100 words or more.
So basically...you're rewarding the dudes who live in their mother's basements and have no life.  Seriously, I have known about this website since the early 2000's, but never bothered to join until a little over a year ago, and then only to rate albums.  Then I didn't really start to post in this forum until later on.  Only recently did I start to review albums, and since I have a job and a family (and a wife who rolls her eyes and says "you're on that stupid site AGAIN?!!" every time she see's me posting on here) I only bother to review the albums that I think deserve to have a voice, so basically, I'm not going to bother reviewing a mediocre or bad album unless they're way up on the chart to begin with.  And I would guess that's how most people out there are.  Most people just don't have the time to write a review.  So you're skewing the system to the people who have way to much time on their hands.


I have three children (one due to be born in two weeks), one wife, two jobs, I am enrolled in a university and taking courses, I do the cooking and grocery shopping, I cut the grass, I write and record original music (two albums so far, five more in the works), I write novels, I attend church regularly, and somehow I am still #36 on the most prolific reviewers list.  My reviews are track-by-track, so they tend to be between 300 and 1200 words on average.


Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


2) In order to become a collaborator, you have to review albums from many subgenres.
I would argue that this means the only people you award "collaborator" status to are people who aren't really experts in any sub-genre.  Because honestly, there are sub-genre's on this site that I would even argue shouldn't be on this site to begin with.  And other sub-genres I just don't have any interest in - I've tried, but they just aren't for me.  So I'm only going to be reviewing in a few certain sub-genres.  And that means I'll probably never be a collaborator.  But whatever, it's just a website.


This is simply false and Dean has already said as much.  I was not promoted to collaborator simply because I wrote reviews.  I participated in the forum, built relationships, and was eventually asked to join the Eclectic Prog Team.  I am now a Special Collaborator who can add artists.  Am I an expert in Eclectic Prog?  Nope.  That's why I don't have a tag that says "Eclectic Prog Expert."  But being an expert isn't a requirement for becoming a collaborator- being friendly, helpful, patient, and willing to learn are.


Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


3) The fact that you don't even know what a Facebook "like" is further proves my point that this site doesn't match reality.  Ok, so bands create pages on Facebook (an IMMENSELY popular social networking site that reaches out to all ages and classes - my GRANDMOTHER is even on facebook.  That's huge.  My grandmother doesn't know how to plug a mouse into a computer.  My Dad had to show her that one.).  People "like" a band's Facebook page because they want to show other people that they like them, and also because they want to see the news related to this band.  So it's a fairly good way to measure one band's popularity against another.  Ok, so what's the number 1 spot for 2011?  Discipline:
http://www.facebook.com/DisciplineBand
790 likes.  That's meagre.  Now, where's Dream Theater's latest album on this list?  18th place.  Lets see how many likes they have:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dream-Theater/7677942180
Wha?  2.5 MILLION?!!!!!  And they are 18th place?  How is this possible?  Hmm...I'm going to say it's because people who like Progressive Metal find this site to be snobbish and pretentious....  Wink
Seriously, I say this not because it's just my opinion, but because I also hang out in a lot of Progressive Metal circles and I've told people about this site and encouraged them to try to make their voices heard, and that is the reaction I most often get from them - they can't be bothered to get on this site because they feel that it's just a bunch of pretentious snobs.  You don't like to hear that, and I get it.  But do you honestly believe in the real world that Discipline deserves a higher spot on the top 100 list than any other album on that list for the year?  Not to say they are a bad band - they're great.  But there are MANY other releases for 2011 that deserve to be higher, and when you stack up the number of Facebook likes for these bands it just doesn't add up.


I fail to see how Facebook "likes" (i.e., a mere single left-click) are more reflective of this "reality" you keep referencing than the reviews of people who have listened to the music with a critical ear.  Maybe for you, Facebook is the true measure of collective opinion.  Of course, it fails to take into consideration the 5,939,507,003 people on the planet who do not have a Facebook account (including me).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 13:21
Ooh, one more:
http://www.facebook.com/animalsasleaders
77th place on the list, 148k likes on Facebook.

Ok, just one more:
http://www.facebook.com/symphonyx
80th place on the top 100 for the year, 213k likes.



Edited by dtguitarfan - April 29 2012 at 13:35
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