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CCVP 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
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Points: 7971
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 Posted: June 20 2011 at 09:16 |
 rogerthat wrote:
Triceratopsoil wrote:
All the best death metal includes a healthy portion of thrash anyway, so yes, Scream Bloody Gore is death metal. |
'Best' is in the eyes of the beholder but quintessential death metal is quite a big break from thrash. It would not come into being until grindcore and the associated goregrind evolved to a certain level of brutality. The kind of primal extreme metal Death were playing was already being played by Slayer, Sodom, Kreator, Slaughter, Sepultura, Hellhammer among many others so there's absolutely no factual reason to call SBG the first death metal album or even death metal. At least w.r.t Slayer the 'clean' vocals stop it being called death but I don't see that problem either with In the Sign of Evil or Bestial Devastation. Not to mention Seven Churches, of course, which had already made significant steps towards a more death metal-like structure moving away from thrash metal's more rigid and generally predictable structure (at that point). |
Even Cannibal Corpse current albums are reminescent of thrash metal, both styles have much in common since death metal is basically an evolution of thrash metal and Scream Bloody Gore was at least a step ahead frrom other thrash metal albums.
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harmonium.ro
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Posted: June 20 2011 at 06:01 |
LOL, this thread is so full of fail that it even borked the page layout 
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DavetheSlave
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Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
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Points: 492
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Posted: June 20 2011 at 03:24 |
I'm with Ivan on this one although to be honest I do feel that comparing the two bands is akin to comparing ships and airplanes in that they are totally different entities. If this was Metal Archives I could understand Death taking the accolades however this is a Prog site and I don't begin to see Death even really featuring other than in the perhaps fact that they had a lot to do with furthering the birth and growth of an offshoot of metal music which arguably has progressive merit.
I say arguably in reference to my own taste in music and with no ill intent meant towards those who enjoy Death Metal music.
Genesis are one of the giants relating to prog music in its entirety and that will never change. Death are a giant to Death Metal music which is but a small branch of Prog music as a whole irrelevantly of anything else. Personally I have no time for Death Metal and that isn't for lack of trying to appreciate the genre. I purchased the entire set of Opeth's albums to try to get to like them. I do believe that the genre has huge merit and is a progressive offshoot of metal music it just isn't attractive to me personally.
I think that some of what Ivan was trying to say is also summarized here.
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Gandalff
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 07 2007
Location: Middle-Earth
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Points: 4214
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Posted: June 20 2011 at 01:02 |
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A Elbereth Gilthoniel
silivren penna míriel
o menel aglar elenath!
Na-chaered palan-díriel
o galadhremmin ennorath,
Fanuilos, le linnathon
nef aear, sí nef aearon!
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: June 19 2011 at 22:02 |
Triceratopsoil wrote:
All the best death metal includes a healthy portion of thrash anyway, so yes, Scream Bloody Gore is death metal. |
'Best' is in the eyes of the beholder but quintessential death metal is quite a big break from thrash. It would not come into being until grindcore and the associated goregrind evolved to a certain level of brutality. The kind of primal extreme metal Death were playing was already being played by Slayer, Sodom, Kreator, Slaughter, Sepultura, Hellhammer among many others so there's absolutely no factual reason to call SBG the first death metal album or even death metal. At least w.r.t Slayer the 'clean' vocals stop it being called death but I don't see that problem either with In the Sign of Evil or Bestial Devastation. Not to mention Seven Churches, of course, which had already made significant steps towards a more death metal-like structure moving away from thrash metal's more rigid and generally predictable structure (at that point).
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
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Points: 18016
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Posted: June 19 2011 at 21:45 |
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All the best death metal includes a healthy portion of thrash anyway, so yes, Scream Bloody Gore is death metal.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: June 19 2011 at 18:32 |
The T wrote:
^As good as Rogerthat points are, I wouldn't include Celtic Frost in death metal or proto death metal. If anything, they are proto black metal. Possessed are a much better starting point. |
Yeah but I kind of think at that point, there was not so much divergence yet between black metal and death metal so it doesn't really matter. Only Bathory were playing out and out black metal yet.
Triceratopsoil wrote:
Celtic Frost is so not death metal
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And Scream Bloody Gore is? I don't hear it, sorry. It's just thrash metal, but the name "Death" and that Chuck did go on to make progressive death metal that makes people call it death metal.
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The T
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Posted: June 19 2011 at 14:32 |
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^As good as Rogerthat points are, I wouldn't include Celtic Frost in death metal or proto death metal. If anything, they are proto black metal. Possessed are a much better starting point.
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Triceratopsoil
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Posted: June 19 2011 at 13:08 |
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Celtic Frost is so not death metal
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lucas
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Posted: June 19 2011 at 11:31 |
And which Genesis band :
- the argentinian prog band ?
- the english prog band ?
- the english psychedelic band ?
- the uruguayan prog band ?
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: June 19 2011 at 11:27 |
rogerthat wrote:
Polo wrote:
Genesis' discernible influence extends pretty much only to Neo-Prog, which does suck regardless of taste. |
Wow, a fine line of argument in a debate centred mainly around "HOW CAN U SAY ALL DEATH METAL BANDS ARE THE SAME LOLZ"? Regardless of taste?? You can't presume to speak on behalf of everyone else while defending your right to like or prefer something. Ok, I get it, the whole lot of you are just pi**ing off Ivan because we haven't had Ivan run through a whole thread in a long while, right?
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Yep, I'm older and hope also wiser.  The blue tide has ended, and when something becomes to absurd, just forget it.
Rogerthat wrote:
Neo prog was used as more of an historical term to describe prog rock bands of the 80s but the style had been laid out by four man Genesis as also And Then There Were Three along with some other bands. |
Yes you are right, as a fact many people believe that the first Neo Prog album was "A Trick of the Tail", one of the most inventive albums that proves how versatile was Genesis.
After years of being identified with one charismatic frontman with a peculiar voice, they were able to re-invent themselves and bring out a new bread of "Symphonic" albums, changing he dark long themes for some sort of fairy tales much more listener friendly as the voice of Collins.
Probably ATOTT is not officially recognized as the beginning of Neo, because the next Genesis album (W&W) was a return to the roots, with two incredibly dark mini Epics and a lot of Gabriel style material.
If you have lemons, you made lemonade, Genesis had Collins and they did a great album.
Now, I used to think like many that Neo Prog was a secondary sub-genre, but no longer, albums like "Script for a Jester's Tear", "Masquerade Overture", "Contagion", "Seven", "Dark Matter", "Against Reason" or Misplaced Childhood" among many other, talk by themselves.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 19 2011 at 23:28
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lucas
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Posted: June 19 2011 at 11:27 |
Which Death band, the one of the seventies or the one of the late eighties ?
vs
Edited by lucas - June 19 2011 at 11:28
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
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Points: 9869
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Posted: June 19 2011 at 11:26 |
lucas wrote:
Prog Geo wrote:
The first official death metal band! |
What about Possessed ? |
Indeed, Possessed, Hellhammer, Celtic Frost all got there before Death. Death simply had THAT word in their name, Scream Bloody Gore is not any more death metal than Pleasure to Kill.
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lucas
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Posted: June 19 2011 at 11:25 |
Prog Geo wrote:
The first official death metal band! |
What about Possessed ?
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: June 19 2011 at 04:09 |
Polo wrote:
Genesis' discernible influence extends pretty much only to Neo-Prog, which does suck regardless of taste. |
Wow, a fine line of argument in a debate centred mainly around "HOW CAN U SAY ALL DEATH METAL BANDS ARE THE SAME LOLZ"? Regardless of taste?? You can't presume to speak on behalf of everyone else while defending your right to like or prefer something. Ok, I get it, the whole lot of you are just pi**ing off Ivan because we haven't had Ivan run through a whole thread in a long while, right?
Edited by rogerthat - June 19 2011 at 04:09
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: June 19 2011 at 03:09 |
Polo wrote:
Now Iván, let me make things clear for you. Death created a whole new genre, which is death metal. You got to credit them whether you like the music or not. I for one don't even give a rat's arse about Death's albums but I respect them a lot. |
No, they didn't! They just called themselves
Death. Not that it really matters in a way because Mantas, Chuck's
earlier band, was already making death metal in the year of, um, Kill em all. I
understand that people who don't like death metal believe that Death started
the genre just as people who don't like thrash metal love to claim Metallica
made the first thrash metal album but it is not the truth. At any rate,
Scream Bloody Gore has not much more in common with what eventually came to be
death metal (which would not come into being before Terrorizer/Morbid Angel)
than did early Kreator or Sepultura. In effect, they are to death metal
what Genesis were to symph prog - not the first but essential and influential
prime movers. They didn't even lead the way in technical metal but again
were amongst those who made it an important niche of metal.
I must also point out that death metal is just a sub genre within metal, it is
simply not a "whole new genre" by any means and most of the elements
that go to defining it had been put together in closely related genres like
thrash metal and grindcore. All it did was to establish a narrow
aspect of differentiation within metal music and typically metal fans felt the
need to call it something else - a trend which got even more bizarre from
the 90s onwards but that's another story. Rock taxonomy is in any case a confused, whimsical and subjective business with precious little basis in objective aspects of music so it says next to nothing about how innovative a band is. Neo prog was used as more of an historical term to describe prog rock bands of the 80s but the style had been laid out by four man Genesis as also And Then There Were Three along with some other bands.
Polo wrote:
Needless to say, I'd take a completely innovative band over another that sold their music by the pound.
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Once again, you are simply attempting to define innovation through a conveniently narrow base. Genesis had a highly individualistic and unique approach to pacing and developing their music which, above all other aspects, makes their music stand out as distinct from their peers. I don't know of any metal band other than Black Sabbath which can even begin to boast of such attention to pacing because in the metal world as long as you play at 11 and 320 bpm, you are ok. Everyone is entitled to his or her preferences but you are simply employing reductive lines of argument to back your opinion here. What Death did was commendable but I cannot begin to see them as comparably innovative or original as Genesis. Once again, the fact that fans called their style something says absolutely nothing to me (and I have in any case established that that claim is in any case inaccurate).
Edited by rogerthat - June 19 2011 at 03:11
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crimhead
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: October 10 2006
Location: Missouri
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 22:17 |
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Sonic the Hedgehog
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
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Points: 18016
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 20:19 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Protest the Hero.
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The Pessimist wrote:
Harry Hood wrote:
I feel like they have a lot more in common with Jazz. Death are a jazz band. "Individual Thought Patterns" is a jazz album. |
No
they don't, no they are not and no it isn't. This is by far the most
"derp de der" comment of the whole thread, and it wasn't even in the
debate from earlier
No offence.
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This and this.
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Andy Webb
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: June 04 2010
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 20:00 |
weeksandgeeks wrote:
Hey wait why cant i vote? I was going to vote Death.
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noobies aren't allowed to vote because people use to make multiple accounts to vote in a poll (sounds ridiculous but people did it)
get 40 posts and you can vote in any poll.
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The T
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Joined: October 16 2006
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 19:22 |
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Genesis vs. Death
Well said. Death is a DEATH metal band. It has close to zero jazz in it.