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Visitor13 
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 02 2005
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 4702
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 Posted: June 14 2008 at 05:53 |
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If someone out there has the clout to make us pay for gas as much as we do now, they also have the clout to prevent any alternative fules from gaining the upper hand. Learn to live on air/sunlight, and take the bus or walk. End of story.
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KoS
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 17 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Status: Offline
Points: 16310
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Posted: June 14 2008 at 04:06 |
 stonebeard wrote:
KoS wrote:
The only problem is the charging cycle.
No way in hell am I(or the public in general) going to go about 100 miles and then have to charge for more than 4 hours just to go 100 miles more.
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That doesn't sound bad to me at all! Only problematic for long road trips. Who makes a commute to work of more than 100 miles a day? Just charge it overnight...
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Me, when I'm bored. So I wouldn't be able to go to San Francisco not even Santa Barbara without renting a car or making it a multi-day trip. Plus, what about the Summer and Winter storms. You think with all those storms that power is going to be continuous. Just last winter some people had no power for weeks.
Edited by KoS - June 14 2008 at 04:06
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Pnoom!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 02 2006
Location: OH
Status: Offline
Points: 4981
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Posted: June 14 2008 at 01:04 |
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^^^
That.
Hybrids ftw. You can always rent a car if you really need one for a long road trip.
And I'm sure they'll find ways to make them go further and charge faster, anyway.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: June 14 2008 at 00:43 |
KoS wrote:
The only problem is the charging cycle.
No way in hell am I(or the public in general) going to go about 100 miles and then have to charge for more than 4 hours just to go 100 miles more.
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That doesn't sound bad to me at all! Only problematic for long road trips. Who makes a commute to work of more than 100 miles a day? Just charge it overnight...
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: June 14 2008 at 00:39 |
Garion81 wrote:
Stonie you really from San Bernardino? |
Nah, Indiana...the ethanol capital of the world. 
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: June 14 2008 at 00:38 |
Pnoom! wrote:
Ethanol = a sham
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It would sure as f**k help Indiana's economy.  Not that it's really bad to begin with.,
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Pnoom!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 02 2006
Location: OH
Status: Offline
Points: 4981
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Posted: June 14 2008 at 00:21 |
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Ethanol = a sham
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crimhead
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: October 10 2006
Location: Missouri
Status: Offline
Points: 19236
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Posted: June 13 2008 at 23:15 |
stonebeard wrote:
Biofeuls = food prices go up, starvation in 3rd world countries |
Biofuels from hemp would not depleat food supplies. I have read that if we used 18% of the agriculture acreage that we have to grow hemp it would meet our fuel needs.
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Garion81
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4338
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Posted: June 13 2008 at 17:10 |
Fuel from food is the last thing we need to do. We don't have enough affective farm land to grow food as it is anyway. It was distressing to hear that many farmers were moving towards growing food for fuel rather than food.
All other areas should be explored except anything that involves fresh water is out too.
Maybe we should just get out and push! 
Stonie you really from San Bernardino?
Edited by Garion81 - June 13 2008 at 17:11
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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KoS
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 17 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Status: Offline
Points: 16310
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Posted: June 13 2008 at 16:44 |
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For the time being, hybrids are our best bet.
Honda still has not released the details on their new hybrids.
Electrics are the next best thing, as of today. The only problem is the charging cycle.
No way in hell am I(or the public in general) going to go about 100 miles and then have to charge for more than 4 hours just to go 100 miles more.
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Relayer09
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 31 2007
Location: Ohio
Status: Offline
Points: 314
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Posted: June 13 2008 at 16:38 |
NaturalScience wrote:
isn't this what i said in my original post?
"This may work eventually, but I think we have to get clean, abundant electricity first - drive the costs near to zero. I say this because there is not a lot of "free" hydrogen just hanging around, but there's plenty of water. So the fuel cell as storage of the cheap electric power can work, and of course you recycle the output for more electrolysis."
My only point is, whereas fossil fuels were a sort of "built in" energy store (though energy is required for distillation/refinement), hydrogen fuel cells are just a battery, a transfer mechanism. The original source still has to be something else.
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We are definetly on the same page here. Where I would differ is in that there is actually alot of "free" hydrogen available. Just as oil has to be refined before you can use it to fuel your car, also would your primary source of hydrogen ( water, coal, natural gas, microbial waste, etc) have to go through a "refining" process before you could fuel your car with it as well. The hydrogen is there for the taking, it's just that our governments and industries need a boot put to their collective asses to start making a real and significant effort convert over to this type of alternative fuel and put their greed aside for a time for the benefit of the planet as a whole. I think this has begun happening with the automotive industry closing truck and SUV plants to bring new plants online to build alternative energy cars. It also seems to have begun in Europe with the recent demonstrations in the U.K. and Spain.
Keeping my fingers crossed.
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If you lose your temper, you've lost the arguement. -Proverb
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GoldenSpiral
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3839
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Posted: June 13 2008 at 16:24 |
The major problem is that shaking the oil addiction will require a massive paradigm shift worldwide.
stonebeard wrote:
Electric cars = rely on electricity provided by plants that need oil to run
This is true, but there are many ways to generate electricity (water, wind, solar) which are well on their way to being implemented more often. Plugging in an electric car at the end of the day won't really put much more of a drain on the electric grid than watching tv or running a PC.
Biofeuls = food prices go up, starvation in 3rd world countries
I think this point is overhyped. All it takes is a little planning. There's plenty of land to be planted around the world, and corn grown in Indiana has very little to do with starvation in the 3rd world.
Hydrogen = pretty good as far as I know
Still dangerous and expensive to implement. Until the Hydrogen engine can be made safe and as cheap as oil burning cars, this won't be a popular option. I think it's an interesting prospect for 10-15 years from now.
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for now, a focus on using oil-burning cars less would help, and the popularity of hybrids and soon electrics will help. Mass transit would be good, but most cities don't have great transit. It's just a shame that most american cities grew based on the availability of automobiles, so now most people can't get around without one. I know if it were viable for me, I'd ride my bike everywhere, but as it is, with the way the city is set up, I'd get killed.
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: June 13 2008 at 16:15 |
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isn't this what i said in my original post?
"This may work eventually, but I think we have to get clean, abundant
electricity first - drive the costs near to zero. I say this because
there is not a lot of "free" hydrogen just hanging around, but there's
plenty of water. So the fuel cell as storage of the cheap electric
power can work, and of course you recycle the output for more
electrolysis."
My only point is, whereas fossil fuels were a sort of "built in" energy store (though energy is required for distillation/refinement), hydrogen fuel cells are just a battery, a transfer mechanism. The original source still has to be something else.
Edited by NaturalScience - June 13 2008 at 16:18
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Relayer09
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 31 2007
Location: Ohio
Status: Offline
Points: 314
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Posted: June 13 2008 at 16:02 |
NaturalScience wrote:
Relayer09 wrote:
NaturalScience wrote:
Relayer09 wrote:
Hydrogen! 
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This may work eventually, but I think we have to get clean, abundant electricity first - drive the costs near to zero. I say this because there is not a lot of "free" hydrogen just hanging around, but there's plenty of water. So the fuel cell as storage of the cheap electric power can work, and of course you recycle the output for more electrolysis.
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2010 is only two years away and hydrogen is the most abundant chemical element in the universe. |
Unfortunately we inhabit a tiny speck of the universe where "free" molecular hydrogen is not readily available.
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Hydrogen can be produced from water by electrolysis. 3/4 of our planet is covered by water. We're not in short supply by any means. Since the only bi-product of the hydrogen fuel cell is water vapor we're in essence replenishing our consumption through our usage.
Hydrogen can also be produced from coal, natural gas, several biological processes as well.
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If you lose your temper, you've lost the arguement. -Proverb
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: June 13 2008 at 15:53 |
Relayer09 wrote:
NaturalScience wrote:
Relayer09 wrote:
Hydrogen!
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This may work eventually, but I think we have to get clean, abundant electricity first - drive the costs near to zero. I say this because there is not a lot of "free" hydrogen just hanging around, but there's plenty of water. So the fuel cell as storage of the cheap electric power can work, and of course you recycle the output for more electrolysis.
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2010 is only two years away and hydrogen is the most abundant chemical element in the universe. |
Unfortunately we inhabit a tiny speck of the universe where "free" molecular hydrogen is not readily available.
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Relayer09
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 31 2007
Location: Ohio
Status: Offline
Points: 314
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Posted: June 13 2008 at 15:49 |
NaturalScience wrote:
Relayer09 wrote:
Hydrogen!
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This may work eventually, but I think we have to get clean, abundant electricity first - drive the costs near to zero. I say this because there is not a lot of "free" hydrogen just hanging around, but there's plenty of water. So the fuel cell as storage of the cheap electric power can work, and of course you recycle the output for more electrolysis.
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2010 is only two years away and hydrogen is the most abundant chemical element in the universe.
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If you lose your temper, you've lost the arguement. -Proverb
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: June 13 2008 at 15:40 |
stonebeard wrote:
Electric cars = rely on electricity provided by plants that need oil to run.
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Oil powers very little of American power plants - around maybe 3%. With alternative energy production (nuclear probably best short term) we could drive it to zero perhaps. Also re: biofuels, if you want to go that route make it grasses or algae. Absolutely ludicrous to be using your food supply for fuel.
Edited by NaturalScience - June 13 2008 at 15:41
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: June 13 2008 at 15:39 |
Relayer09 wrote:
Hydrogen!
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This may work eventually, but I think we have to get clean, abundant electricity first - drive the costs near to zero. I say this because there is not a lot of "free" hydrogen just hanging around, but there's plenty of water. So the fuel cell as storage of the cheap electric power can work, and of course you recycle the output for more electrolysis.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: June 13 2008 at 15:38 |
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Electric cars = rely on electricity provided by plants that need oil to run
Biofeuls = food prices go up, starvation in 3rd world countries
Hydrogen = pretty good as far as I know
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Relayer09
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 31 2007
Location: Ohio
Status: Offline
Points: 314
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Posted: June 13 2008 at 15:33 |
Hydrogen!
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If you lose your temper, you've lost the arguement. -Proverb
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