Alternative Fuels
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Topics not related to music
Forum Name: General Polls
Forum Description: Create polls on topics not related to music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49395
Printed Date: December 02 2024 at 17:39
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Alternative Fuels
Posted By: crimhead
Subject: Alternative Fuels
Date Posted: June 13 2008 at 12:15
| Just sitting around and thinking about oil prices and our alternatives |
Replies:
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: June 13 2008 at 12:21
| I'd prefer electric cars myself, if they can improve storage devices (supercapacitors, etc.). Not a fan of any of the listed choices, although maybe biomass, but there maybe algae instead of grasses - smaller spatial footprint for processing? Haven't looked into it too closely to be honest. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 13 2008 at 12:56
|
Not really an either or proposition. Everything should be explored. Here's somethings to cheers youse up:     ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
|
Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: June 13 2008 at 13:10
Here's your electric car..... http://www.pinktentacle.com/2008/06/superconductor-electric-vehicle/ - http://www.pinktentacle.com/2008/06/superconductor-electric-vehicle/ |
NaturalScience wrote:Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: June 13 2008 at 13:29
Well, we were asked what we think is best - currently I think all these options are being explored at some level. And the first cartoon is a bit silly, the windfall tax isn't going to solve price problems. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 13 2008 at 14:04
Oh, and I suppose the other cartoons aren't silly? 
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
|
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: June 13 2008 at 14:35
| I think the bottom one is my favorite |
Posted By: Relayer09
Date Posted: June 13 2008 at 15:33
Hydrogen! 
http://www.hydrogencarinfo.com/gmhydrogencar.html - http://www.hydrogencarinfo.com/gmhydrogencar.html ------------- If you lose your temper, you've lost the arguement. -Proverb |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 13 2008 at 15:38
|
Electric cars = rely on electricity provided by plants that need oil to run Biofeuls = food prices go up, starvation in 3rd world countries Hydrogen = pretty good as far as I know ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: June 13 2008 at 15:39
This may work eventually, but I think we have to get clean, abundant electricity first - drive the costs near to zero. I say this because there is not a lot of "free" hydrogen just hanging around, but there's plenty of water. So the fuel cell as storage of the cheap electric power can work, and of course you recycle the output for more electrolysis. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: June 13 2008 at 15:40
Oil powers very little of American power plants - around maybe 3%. With alternative energy production (nuclear probably best short term) we could drive it to zero perhaps. Also re: biofuels, if you want to go that route make it grasses or algae. Absolutely ludicrous to be using your food supply for fuel. |
Posted By: Relayer09
Date Posted: June 13 2008 at 15:49
2010 is only two years away and hydrogen is the most abundant chemical element in the universe. ------------- If you lose your temper, you've lost the arguement. -Proverb |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: June 13 2008 at 15:53
Unfortunately we inhabit a tiny speck of the universe where "free" molecular hydrogen is not readily available. |
Posted By: Relayer09
Date Posted: June 13 2008 at 16:02
Hydrogen can be produced from water by electrolysis. 3/4 of our planet is covered by water. We're not in short supply by any means. Since the only bi-product of the hydrogen fuel cell is water vapor we're in essence replenishing our consumption through our usage.
Hydrogen can also be produced from coal, natural gas, several biological processes as well. ------------- If you lose your temper, you've lost the arguement. -Proverb |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: June 13 2008 at 16:15
|
isn't this what i said in my original post? "This may work eventually, but I think we have to get clean, abundant electricity first - drive the costs near to zero. I say this because there is not a lot of "free" hydrogen just hanging around, but there's plenty of water. So the fuel cell as storage of the cheap electric power can work, and of course you recycle the output for more electrolysis." My only point is, whereas fossil fuels were a sort of "built in" energy store (though energy is required for distillation/refinement), hydrogen fuel cells are just a battery, a transfer mechanism. The original source still has to be something else. |
Posted By: GoldenSpiral
Date Posted: June 13 2008 at 16:24
|
The major problem is that shaking the oil addiction will require a massive paradigm shift worldwide.
for now, a focus on using oil-burning cars less would help, and the popularity of hybrids and soon electrics will help. Mass transit would be good, but most cities don't have great transit. It's just a shame that most american cities grew based on the availability of automobiles, so now most people can't get around without one. I know if it were viable for me, I'd ride my bike everywhere, but as it is, with the way the city is set up, I'd get killed. ------------- http://www.myspace.com/altaic" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/altaic ALTAIC "Oceans Down You'll Lie" coming soon |
Posted By: Relayer09
Date Posted: June 13 2008 at 16:38
We are definetly on the same page here. Where I would differ is in that there is actually alot of "free" hydrogen available. Just as oil has to be refined before you can use it to fuel your car, also would your primary source of hydrogen ( water, coal, natural gas, microbial waste, etc) have to go through a "refining" process before you could fuel your car with it as well. The hydrogen is there for the taking, it's just that our governments and industries need a boot put to their collective asses to start making a real and significant effort convert over to this type of alternative fuel and put their greed aside for a time for the benefit of the planet as a whole. I think this has begun happening with the automotive industry closing truck and SUV plants to bring new plants online to build alternative energy cars. It also seems to have begun in Europe with the recent demonstrations in the U.K. and Spain.
Keeping my fingers crossed. ------------- If you lose your temper, you've lost the arguement. -Proverb |
Posted By: KoS
Date Posted: June 13 2008 at 16:44
|
For the time being, hybrids are our best bet. Honda still has not released the details on their new hybrids. Electrics are the next best thing, as of today. The only problem is the charging cycle. No way in hell am I(or the public in general) going to go about 100 miles and then have to charge for more than 4 hours just to go 100 miles more. |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: June 13 2008 at 17:10
|
Fuel from food is the last thing we need to do. We don't have enough affective farm land to grow food as it is anyway. It was distressing to hear that many farmers were moving towards growing food for fuel rather than food.
All other areas should be explored except anything that involves fresh water is out too.
Maybe we should just get out and push!
 Stonie you really from San Bernardino?
------------- 
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: June 13 2008 at 23:15
Biofuels from hemp would not depleat food supplies. I have read that if we used 18% of the agriculture acreage that we have to grow hemp it would meet our fuel needs. |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: June 14 2008 at 00:21
| Ethanol = a sham |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 14 2008 at 00:38
It would sure as f**k help Indiana's economy.  Not that it's really bad to begin with., ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 14 2008 at 00:39
Nah, Indiana...the ethanol capital of the world.  ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 14 2008 at 00:43
That doesn't sound bad to me at all! Only problematic for long road trips. Who makes a commute to work of more than 100 miles a day? Just charge it overnight... ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: June 14 2008 at 01:04
|
^^^ That. Hybrids ftw. You can always rent a car if you really need one for a long road trip. And I'm sure they'll find ways to make them go further and charge faster, anyway. |
Posted By: KoS
Date Posted: June 14 2008 at 04:06
So I wouldn't be able to go to San Francisco not even Santa Barbara without renting a car or making it a multi-day trip. Plus, what about the Summer and Winter storms. You think with all those storms that power is going to be continuous. Just last winter some people had no power for weeks. |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: June 14 2008 at 05:53
| If someone out there has the clout to make us pay for gas as much as we do now, they also have the clout to prevent any alternative fules from gaining the upper hand. Learn to live on air/sunlight, and take the bus or walk. End of story. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: June 14 2008 at 06:48
Siam's got a good point here. Storms in Melbourne are fortunately not as harsh as they are in some of the other state capital cities, although back in January literally hundreds of thousands of people had no power to their homes after a storm for well over a week, even maybe 2 weeks or more. I was lucky in that my western inner south west suburban area was only affected for 6-8 hours at most. In the next few years/decades a lot of work should be done to ensure electricity infrastructure is more weather resistant. ------------- 
|
Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: June 14 2008 at 13:37
This from the oil minister of the UAE ALGARY, Alberta (Reuters) - Recent huge spikes in oil prices are "crazy" and unrelated to supply and demand fundamentals as world markets are adequately supplied with crude, the United Arab Emirates energy minister told Reuters on Tuesday. Still, the OPEC member would be pleased to join in a meeting with oil-consuming countries to discuss runaway prices because they are hurting economies, Mohammed al-Hamli said. Saudi Arabia will host such a gathering later this month. "There is no shortage of crude oil in the market. Inventory levels are huge," Hamli said after speaking at a conference in Canada. On Friday, U.S. crude jumped $10.75 to a record close of $138.54 a barrel, capping a two-day surge of more than $16 and stunning analysts who saw little fundamental reason for the spike. "If you look at prices moving by $10 a day, that doesn't make sense," Hamli said. "That's crazy." The UAE has spare capacity and is "quite happy" to supply more oil if called upon, he said. So who is setting the price of this commodity if the suppliers are saying they have a glut of it? I agree that we have to get off of oil but our leaders are doing little to do so. Who is pulling their strings? |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: June 14 2008 at 14:15
| ^ well, there you go. Someone's making billions on oil out there and they're getting away with it. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: June 14 2008 at 19:48
|
Ethanol is a very well publicized scam. It's barely an energy gain, if at all.
Also, ETHANOL INTO FOOD!! http://gas2.org/2008/05/22/usda-says-ethanol-accounts-for-only-3-of-increased-cost-of-food/ - isn't quite true yet. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: June 14 2008 at 23:59
|
I think that http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Fuel_gel - fuel gel should be looked into as an energy source. Which way is it to Bryyo? -------------   |
Posted By: Relayer09
Date Posted: June 15 2008 at 19:13
|
AP
RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (AP) -- Saudi Arabia plans to increase its oil production by 200,000 barrels a day next month, the kingdom's oil minister told U.N. chief Ban Ki-moon on Sunday, according to Ban's spokesman.
The U.N. secretary-general met with Oil Minister Ali al-Naimi in the port city of Jiddah during a one-day trip to the world's largest oil producer.
Farhan Haq, a spokesman who is traveling with Ban, said in an e-mail that the U.N. chief said al-Naimi told him Saudi Arabia would increase oil production by 200,000 barrels a day from June to July. In May, the kingdom increased its production by 300,000. By July, production should be at 9.7 million barrels a day, Haq said. Ban also said Saudi Arabia understands that the current price of oil, which topped $139 per barrel earlier this month, is not normal, according to the official Saudi Press Agency. "The king believes that the current oil prices are abnormally high, and he is ready to restore prices to their appropriate levels," SPA quoted Ban as telling reporters in Jiddah. The report carried by SPA was in Arabic, and it did not say what language Ban spoke in. Saudi Arabia is concerned that sustained high oil prices will eventually slacken the world's appetite for oil, affecting the kingdom in the long run. The kingdom has called for a meeting of oil producing and consuming countries on June 22 in Jiddah to discuss ways of dealing with soaring energy prices. I Think they're getting a little concerned that western countries are fed up and may very well be serious this time about alternative fuels. I guess having oil become as worthless as sand doesn't sound like a very lucrative prospect for them. I say we convert anyway just for laughs.  ------------- If you lose your temper, you've lost the arguement. -Proverb |
Posted By: KoS
Date Posted: June 15 2008 at 23:01
|
From Syriana: "You know what the business world thinks of you? They think a hundred years ago you were living in tents out here in the desert chopping each other's heads off and that's exactly where you'll be in another hundred years" |
Posted By: Passionist
Date Posted: June 16 2008 at 05:09
|
I think the whole idea of driving 100 miles just for the sake of it is pretty f***ed up. Yeah, sure, electricity won't last that long, but hey... Personally I'd take a train. I happen to be blessed enough to have a nice train system and when i move to Helsinki there'll be trams everywhere so I won't have to go allt he way by bike. Though back in the old days it was no problem for the old people to just ride 100 miles to go look for work, or that's what they say all the time. In fact, cycling some 50 miles a day wouldn't hurt anyone either. I myself only go 20 or so miles a day, to the shop and back. There's a petition or something at Facebook, that's gathering names for lower gasoline prices. A friend of mine joined and asked me to join too. I told her, that I find the whole idea sh*t and I'd rather bring down any price in the world than gasoline. Not that I hate it, but seriously, using all the gas 'till we have none left isn't really the solution we should be looking for. I personalyl don't think, that with cars, the reason we should develope them further is the growing lack of oil but what a million or more gas motors are doing to the environment. Also, notice, that china is currently building up their "car culture" faster than anything. I find people moralizing over it, though still driving their own cars and saying that they have one already, there shouldn't be more. But the truth is, in 20-30 years we'll most likely have twice as much cars and individual personal forms of transportation than what we have now. Well, if the east is innovative, they might build a society around electric cars or rice-field ethanol. After all, rice-wine is too awful to drink anyway. Personally I'd prefer transportation gates like the ones in Baldur's Gate2, or motorbikes that run on squirrel juice and play a happy ice-cream van tunes while triving. Oops, and I ranted again... |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: June 16 2008 at 05:42
To do that first you'd need to bring down the price of gasoline. |
Posted By: Relayer09
Date Posted: June 16 2008 at 15:47
|
Honda rolled it's hydrogen car out today. Too bad I don't live in southern California.
http://green.yahoo.com/news/ap/20080616/ap_on_bi_ge/japan_honda.html - http://green.yahoo.com/news/ap/20080616/ap_on_bi_ge/japan_honda.html ------------- If you lose your temper, you've lost the arguement. -Proverb |
Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: June 16 2008 at 18:49
With only 3 places to fuel up in the L.A. metro I wouldn't run out and get one. The $600 a month lease would be another stumbling block as well. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: June 17 2008 at 09:22
| I can't picture Hydrogen becoming a really viable solution for at least 20 years yet. Hell, the hybrid car hasn't even really taken off. |
Posted By: Relayer09
Date Posted: June 17 2008 at 11:14
Agreed, but this is the first step in the right direction for emisson free vehicles. This is only in the prototype stage and once the refueling infrastructure is in place prices for these vehicles would drop dramatically for consumers. ------------- If you lose your temper, you've lost the arguement. -Proverb |
Posted By: Relayer09
Date Posted: June 17 2008 at 11:16
Not according to Honda, they are unable to keep up with demand for hybrids now.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080616/ap_on_hi_te/japan_toyota_hybrids;_ylt=AsV65jzjFUocsVTh1KJg9bcDW7oF - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080616/ap_on_hi_te/japan_toyota_hybrids;_ylt=AsV65jzjFUocsVTh1KJg9bcDW7oF ------------- If you lose your temper, you've lost the arguement. -Proverb |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: June 17 2008 at 14:44
Good to know the heartland is so well supplied.
The reasonI asked is I actually live about 30-40 minutes from that notorious city. It is everything Zappa wrote about and worse.
-------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: BroSpence
Date Posted: June 17 2008 at 23:53
|
Bio-Diesel and BioMass are the two best options as of now. Hemp is an incredible plant that is adaptable and can grow in almost any environment. It can produce over 20,000 different products that are now oil based. It was once an almost billion dollar crop before it was banned. The US constitution was written on a piece of paper made of hemp. Jefferson was a proponent of hemp. It would not legalize marijuana as the two are different derivatives of the cannabis plant. Hemp contains almost very little THC (not even a significant amount to get high off of) and can even be bred to have 0 (or extremely close to it). Hemp would not only help the oil dependency situation but also significantly reduce the number of trees that are cut down, but then all the loggers and oilmen would be very very upset. All restaurants use oils to cook food and then they just toss the stuff. Why not reuse it for your vehicle?
Also the hemp plant grows quite efficiently and is incredibly sustainable. Possibly more so than any other plant. Ethanol is crap. Not only are the effects from using it terrible, but it also puts even more reliance on corn in the US. Corn is a bad. Or more accurately, Corn is good, but has become a legalized, abused whore and has messed up our agricultural system. You can thank the idiots on and around capital hill for that though. |
Posted By: BroSpence
Date Posted: June 17 2008 at 23:59
However, these are all statements coming from a man that works for a government that has built the majority of its wealth from oil production and is currently building an island because of that wealth. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 19 2008 at 08:06
|
None of the above: all those bio-ethanols are running up food inflation rates, and will have to be abadonned.
THE REAL SOLUTION!!!!
Remember that you've read here first.
The solution will be the car that runs on compressed air
Held in big 300 l tanks and 300 bar, there won't be anymore explosion or fumesor even excessive heat.
picture your Once the piston is above, you inject 300 bar air and the detention of the gas to 1 or 2 bar will push the cylinder down. No explosion, just a gas gaining back its proper state, and even provoking some cooling (rather than heating), probably causing some condension on the engine surface.
A french manufacturer has those vehicles close to join the marke^place and the car have autonomy of km (better than electric, which take up hours to recharge the batteries)).
Tank stations you ask?: place every ten Km a windmikll (the most powerful can develop up to 2 MW) to drive a HP compressor to fill up a tank of the station (in case of prolonged lack of wind, the compressor can work on electricuty as well): >>> the driver comes up to the tank and connects to his empty car tanks the hoses between the two, opens the valves and within 20 seconds, his car tanks are filled again....
No explosion, flame or fume. no air pollution both in driving around and producing the "fuel", this is almost like a miracle..... And it's about to happen (I'm fighting for it), too!!!
Compressed air is cheap and can be compressed cleanly (but must be filtered from water, oil and dust before reaching the "combustion chamber"
The big downside: if car makers don't lose jobs, anyone owning a compressor can have undefined access to an unlimited source of energy (ths isan enormous plus for you and I), which NOBODY amongst politicians and economists want >> too much loses in revenues. and a whole side of petro-industries becoming almost useless.
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: June 19 2008 at 18:57
|
^ Thanks for sharing Sean here are some links (although some are no longer good) on the subject http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/CompressedAir/index.html - http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/CompressedAir/index.html -------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: markosherrera
Date Posted: June 19 2008 at 22:55
|
BIO FUEL WITH GARBAGE
------------- Hi progmaniacs of all the world |