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What ever happened to E.L.P.?
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kirk782 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by BasedProgger BasedProgger wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

In truth they should have stopped after the live triple album and then we would probbaly not even be having this debate.


Maybe but then again there are a lot of bands that could have stopped after any album and their legacy wouldn't have been tarnished. Genesis could have stopped after Peter Gabriel or Steve Hackett's departure, Pink Floyd could have stopped after 1974, and The Who could have stopped after Keith Moon's death. But they didn't stop and it's best that bands break up when they want to. ELP shouldn't have been forced to make that commercial album. They should have been allowed to stop after Works.


Pink Floyd still made decent work post 1974 but many other prog giants didn't. VdGG latter half of the repertoire plays it quite safe and somewhat bland. The Who actually did a farewell tour in 1982, I think, called Who's Last in support of their then LP [It's Hard was it?]. That had Eminence Front , considered by many to be the last great song by the band. Half of the band then re grouped[2 members] to make couple of more albums this side of the century and they couldn't even touch half the greatness of Who's Next.

Led Zeppelin were one of the few bands to call it quits and not have a rotating cast of character for the band due to which they were canonized in rock history [despite Robert Plant himself holding his past lyricism not in any high esteem].
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Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Said it many times before but PA listings tend to value consistency more than inspiration when it comes to album ratings. There is plenty wrong with the PA top 100 as far as I'm concerned, not just the lack of ELP. No Rick Wakeman albums at all (at least 2 should be in there) and he was a contemporary of ELP maybe even doing it better than them on Six Wives up to and inc White Rock. Scottish band Beggars Opera were also a tremendous band with all the chops of ELP. Their debut Act One was incredible. I think many reviewers actually don't appreciate this pure classical approach as Pedro suggests. The filler thing is a red herring imo. Just an excuse to mark them down for no good reason. For some reason Genesis can get away with Battle Of Epping Forest yet the knives are out when ELP do the 2 minute throwaway ditty BTB. My final thought is that ELP did untold damage to their legacy with the awful Love Beach. That was a horror story and their collective reputations took a massive hit and somehow never recovered from it. That gave all the ammunition needed to the punks yet in spirit they were as rebellious as any punk band which is the strangely ironic thing about the whole affair!


Rick Wakeman is indeed sadly overlooked. One of my very favorite artists... indeed more so than ELP. He's got more music, both individual songs or whole albums, that I love than most other artists, including ELP, and even Yes themselves (whom are also among my very favorite artists).


I love THE SIX WIVES too, and awarded it a five-star review. I also greatly enjoyed one of Rick's recent releases:

https://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=3052789
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^ Yeah it's hard to tell what exactly his point is, especially since WYWH is one of the great albums of the 1970s.
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^ I don't think it is as he doesn't like (or rate) Animals highly.
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^ WYWH & Animals are two great records, I think that's his point.
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Originally posted by BasedProgger BasedProgger wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

In truth they should have stopped after the live triple album and then we would probbaly not even be having this debate.


Maybe but then again there are a lot of bands that could have stopped after any album and their legacy wouldn't have been tarnished. Genesis could have stopped after Peter Gabriel or Steve Hackett's departure, Pink Floyd could have stopped after 1974, and The Who could have stopped after Keith Moon's death. But they didn't stop and it's best that bands break up when they want to. ELP shouldn't have been forced to make that commercial album. They should have been allowed to stop after Works.

ELP was all albout those early albums though. I like Works Vol One but 3 sides of solo music was too much for even die hard ELP fans while the later albums were confused messes excepting Black Moon perhaps. But then we get ITHS (2 steps back after 1 forward). I did think about Genesis but actually ATTWT and Duke were fine and well put together records. Later records were not so bad as their reputations excepting CAS but no one really thinks that's a Genesis record anyway. The Who were mainly a live band with one stellar studio album. The comment about Floyd is strange (WYWH and Animals???!!)
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

In truth they should have stopped after the live triple album and then we would probbaly not even be having this debate.


–Stop with WBMFTTSTNE

–80s: Emerson, Lake & Powell (2 albums)

–90s: Black Moon

A much better look. No 3, either.
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ELP were very successful in the 70s and very influential to musicians on the East coast of America! I saw them perform at the Spectrum in Philadelphia on the "Welcome Back' tour. The place was packed!! What an event!!

By the time I hit age 18 and started playing Rock clubs and theaters...I could see "hands on" ..just loads of young keyboard players and drummers trying to play like Keith Emerson and Carl Palmer. The drum sets changed quite a bit . Drummers in the tri state area were investing in Carl Palmer's gear. The same applied to Emerson and many pro keyboardist that I knew from the road were in fact trying to play his style .

Billy Joel was obviously influenced by Emerson. Obviously on "Angry Young Man" which has the affect of ELP "The Sheriff " and generally he improvised in more of a Emerson style on some of his jazzy songs....for example 52nd Street.

With ELP it was all about the impact! It just generated through other musicians up and down the east coast. Even in the 80s...keyboardists still expressed admiration for Emerson.
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

...
While it's true that some people do not understand context or as you say, miss a sense of history, nobody's ever complained about ELP's lack of loud guitar, or complained about Palmer's drumming, or lack of growls (a singing style that came much, much later, seriously, such a weird comment). 

Hi,

It was a generic comment, and not intended to be taken seriously, or directly as you have. 

The point was, that the music, in those days, was so different, that few people that posted here on this thread can really relate to it, and I don't mean that badly, in the sense that the times are different, but looking at ELP as if it were a today's band, that should be listed in the monthly numbers, or year end best of lists, makes it look like this old band is not that good ... and I find that sad ... to me it's like saying that Stravinsky is old and dead, and the music is crap ... and that would be a comment on the knowledge of music a lot more on the reality of the situation, and a bit about the history of music, that is/was, once again, poor ... remember that Debussy was booed, and Ravel was thrown garbage for a while.

With the media today, we have a chance to set things right, and give the folks that deserve it a chance, and instead, the only thing that can be said is making a comment about what I said instead of adding to the thread.

I stand up to be counted, and was there when the music came around ... a lot of folks here would not be there at all because of the commercial reality of things that is so visible today ... not that it wasn't THEN, but that was EXACTLY what we revolted against, and the FM radio dial was our great helper ... to the point that we still discuss that music. Shame that there is little appreciation for what so many folks did and helped this music, and have to put up with some comments!

But, that's not to say that there were not comments on ELP then. There were, but I think that many folks were confused with their classical nature opposite their pop/rock stuff. It didn't bother me a whole lot, because it was far out ... but in today's style and parlayance, I think ELP would be trashed even more, specially with anyone being able to say whatever they want, regardless. 

And it is very sad that it is all about the "preferences" and not the music itself ... there is nothing more that a true musician wants than appreciation for their work. It's what an art is for, and what artists live for. 
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

In truth they should have stopped after the live triple album and then we would probbaly not even be having this debate.


Maybe but then again there are a lot of bands that could have stopped after any album and their legacy wouldn't have been tarnished. Genesis could have stopped after Peter Gabriel or Steve Hackett's departure, Pink Floyd could have stopped after 1974, and The Who could have stopped after Keith Moon's death. But they didn't stop and it's best that bands break up when they want to. ELP shouldn't have been forced to make that commercial album. They should have been allowed to stop after Works.
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People are too often lead by journalistic opinion but then ELP did bring a lot on themselves, ie touring with a 60 piece orchestra during the summer of punk, losing a million dollars a show (as estimated by Greg Lake at the time) and then deciding to do a commercial album with a dreadful cover. This was a band unhinged and scoring several own goals (to use soccer parlance). It was a long road to recovery .. but then they do In The Hot Seat. In truth they should have stopped after the live triple album and then we would probbaly not even be having this debate.
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Today, with the Internet, what is missing, is fans with a sense of history, and understanding, so it seems, so they don't think that ELP is crap, simply because there is no loud guitar, cheap drumming, and a growl or two ... that's not a music fan ... !!!!
 comments.

Another exaggeration... LOL

While it's true that some people do not understand context or as you say, miss a sense of history, nobody's ever complained about ELP's lack of loud guitar, or complained about Palmer's drumming, or lack of growls (a singing style that came much, much later, seriously, such a weird comment). 
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ELP brought a lot on themselves though. I believe in personal responsibility even if I don't always manage it myself! We can talk about ELP's legacy but if you compare them to another stellar 3 piece band The Police then they come off badly and it's obvious to see the reasons why.
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Originally posted by TheLionOfPrague TheLionOfPrague wrote:

...
So I think they are underappreciated by prog fans currently as several other bands seem to be more liked (Gentle Giant, Van der Graaf, Camel, etc) but for the general public they are much more well known as those bands are almost strictly appreciated in prog circles and some people who like rock from the past regardless of the genre.
...

Hi,

At the time, and listening to a FM radio station that played it all at the time, there was no such thing as a lack of appreciation for ELP or any of the bands mentioned, and I think that the only folks that tick that box are the ones that are not exactly "progressive" music folks, and would rather go listen to something more conventional and listed with a number on the monthly this and that, to make it look like these folks are better, and more important than the music itself. 

At the very least, a lot of the FM radio would make many of those folks leave and go listen to the rinky dinky AM stations and their hits, because, if anything, they were even mentioned in Variety ... and not much in the FM dial was listed anywhere.

Today, with the Internet, what is missing, is fans with a sense of history, and understanding, so it seems, so they don't think that ELP is crap, simply because there is no loud guitar, cheap drumming, and a growl or two ... that's not a music fan ... !!!!

I don't remember anyone, and my roomie was one of the folks in that number 1 station with his Space Pirate Radio show, say so much poor and bad stuff, as it happens here ... it's embarrassing ... but I know one thing those folks don't ... those bands will be remembered for a lot longer than folks making those troll'ish comments.


Edited by moshkito - February 22 2025 at 11:16
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To me they are one of the best prog bands ever with Floyd, Genesis and Yes. And yes, I absolutely agree their albums are underranked compared to the other "Big 6" bands, especially considering as its been mentioned that bands that were far less popular and iconic also have their albums ranked higher.




Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

  
I strongly disagree, Tarkus' second half is great and provides a contrast to the first side.   'Jeremy Bender', 'Bitches Crystal', 'Time and a Place' are not filler.   The only joke cut is Eddy.   


Fully agreed. I never understood the whole Tarkus second side is not that good. I don't think it's worse than the "other side" of other albums that have a side-long suite like Foxtrot, Meddle, etc. which people never talk badly about the non-suite side. 


Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

In the US in the 70s they were quite a bit more popular than Genesis.

Definitely, also in UK/Europe. More popular than Crimson too. I'd say below Floyd for sure, slightly below Yes and even with Tull maybe? Or was Tull bigger too?

But they were above Crimson and Genesis definitely and the rest. 


Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

However, these days the PG era of the band is much more widely appreciated than Genesis (even outside of prog circles).

The Collins era made them super famous and exposed many people to the Gabriel era which was underappreciated at the time. 


Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

 Even Gentle Giant are appreciated and more known (at least to prog fans). These days I'd say it's mostly classic rock fans and not so much prog fans who appreciate them. I'm talking about the fans from the old days. I doubt many younger music fans (of any genre) think too much of them. 

There is some truth to this. I don't think Gentle Giant are more known than ELP, ELP after all headlined a festival when they got together (unless you don't consider 2010 as "these days" anymore) but Gentle Giant seem to be more appreciated in prog circles, and their albums are definitely ranked higher here overall, but they are not very popular in general at all. But I'd agree ELP seems to be more popular to the general public for sure. 


I remember being surprised by how many of my friends know about ELP when they came up in a conversation when we were listening to some music a while ago, they are not prog fans at all. They are more like people who listen to whatever is on the radio and listen to some of the "big names" from the past when it comes to rock/pop music. OTOH, I was surprised about how few of them knew Bruce Springsteen when I mentioned I went to his concert LOL. Even my Mom knows ELP and she is clueless when it comes to rock music, I wouldn't be surpised if she doesn't know Led Zeppelin. And recently I was playing From the Beginning on my guitar and my cousin recognized it and he doesn't know anything about prog.

So I think they are underappreciated by prog fans currently as several other bands seem to be more liked (Gentle Giant, Van der Graaf, Camel, etc) but for the general public they are much more well known as those bands are almost strictly appreciated in prog circles and some people who like rock from the past regardless of the genre.


Their flaw to me is their decline post-1974. Works are mediocre, Love Beach is over-hated but it's still a poo album. ITHS is pretty bad, Re-Works is terrible. Black Moon and ELPowell are pretty decent though, especially the former. 
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Perhaps I should have lurked more or I'm just used to telling this kind of stuff to normies.
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Originally posted by BasedProgger BasedProgger wrote:

I disagree with this approach and prefer to buy and listen to the studio albums so I can enjoy all their songs, not just the hits.


I believe every user on this site feels the same way, i.e., you're preaching to the choir.
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^Not me, Pedro, I do not dislike classical music, and have been into it as much, or more so, than progressive rock. I really dig it when rock groups transcribe and give a new take on classical music, as ELP were so good at doing...
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