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Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
Posted: May 17 2013 at 13:12
sleeper wrote:
Dean wrote:
Show me one case where we as a species has learnt from their mistakes. We are all arrogant. Empires still rise and fall, we still wage pointless wars, people still die of starvation. History has taught us nothing.
I'd say it's taught, we've just refused to listen.
+1, though I'd say that we refuse to listen to a lot of things.
Joined: May 03 2011
Location: MA
Status: Offline
Points: 1940
Posted: May 17 2013 at 13:12
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Anyway, back to the brass tacks: The only sound things I can think of off the top of my head are only some of those penned by Mr. Hammill and Mr. Rogers Waters.
(I know this one is not prog, but here it goes:) "Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine" - don't mean jack s%$t to me, especially since the time of Jesus was rather very poorly documented, and I don't freaking know whether he has ever really existed. PG's "Biko" has brought the cruelty in the Apartheid-stricken corners of the world to the attention of the rest of the world, but had not done much else (at least to my knowledge, especially since my knowledge I find rather feeble, let alone in the history of the world).
I want lyrics that can change a person. I, as a songwriter, want to develop a brand of lyric-writing that can help improve a person's lifestyle and worldview (of course, that depends how I would define the word "improve", but that's a topic for another day).
Geez, what else do you want the song to do, flip your pancakes?
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
Posted: May 17 2013 at 13:12
Dean wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Dean wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
That sounds more like politics than philosophy. Isn't philosophy supposed to expand our understanding of the world and its nature (besides science)?
Sounds nothing like politics, though the philosophy of politics has some bearing considering that politics are based upon some philosophical idealism and are modified and corrupted by other philosophical idealisms and are enacted by people subscribing to some philosophical idealism.
OK. What kind of damage has philosophy done to us (besides that on political grounds)?
Where would you like to start? Religion,Idealism, Dogma, Politics, Economics, War, Eugenics, Ethnic Cleansing and Racism?
I don't see how philosophy has to do with any of it. Many of the things you've mentioned are based on ill motivations, not on healthy ways thinking.
Dean wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Dean wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
That sounds more like politics than philosophy. Isn't philosophy supposed to expand our understanding of the world and its nature (besides science)?
However, do you want to give a nice concise example where philosophy that has been a positive expansion of our understanding of the world?
I wouldn't know anything about that. I've never ever heard or read anyone telling the public that this philosophical quote has changed his/her/its way of thinking. For all I know, philosophy has the potential of helping us improve our lifestyles.
Everyone assumes that philosophy does nothing but good, yet there is little evidence of that. In its basic form, philosophy does nothing and gives us nothing, it has never produced anything of value, for every philosophical thought there is an counter train of thought that states the opposite view. One man's philosophical panacea is another man's anathema.
1) Who is everyone? 2) The form of philosophy as we know it is far beyond basic, last time I checked. 3) "One man's philosophical panacea is another man's anathema." What is this, a universal thing? How can you prove that?
Dean wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Dean wrote:
We will repeat the same mistakes regardless of how much we know it is destined to failure because we are an arrogant species who denies its past mistakes.
1) What kind of failure is it destined to? 2) Not all of us are arrogant. 3) We don't deny our past mistakes ... that's what history classes are for.
Show me one case where we as a species has learnt from their mistakes. We are all arrogant. Empires still rise and fall, we still wage pointless wars, people still die of starvation. History has taught us nothing.
[/quote]If there is anything history has taught us, it's what not to do.
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
Posted: May 17 2013 at 13:10
Dean wrote:
Show me one case where we as a species has learnt from their mistakes. We are all arrogant. Empires still rise and fall, we still wage pointless wars, people still die of starvation. History has taught us nothing.
I'd say it's taught, we've just refused to listen.
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
Posted: May 17 2013 at 13:07
I like strong lyrics and content but since it's the music that draws me in and keeps me interested first and foremost then if that's missing I really couldn't care less about the lyrics. In fact, for most of my favorite songs I don't even know more than 1 or 2 random lines regardless of whether their being sung or growled, rasped or spoken as I find delivery to be far more important.
Take Between the Buried and Me's Mordecai, it's a rather rough song being from their second album but the second half of the song is breathtaking for Tommy Rogers passionate delivery, and despite having the album for over 2 years I still haven't a clue what it is he sings, he just does it really well.
The caveat to this is that obvious pointless nonsense stands out quite badly and is one reason why I don't like Yes.
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Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: May 17 2013 at 13:03
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Dean wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
That sounds more like politics than philosophy. Isn't philosophy supposed to expand our understanding of the world and its nature (besides science)?
Sounds nothing like politics, though the philosophy of politics has some bearing considering that politics are based upon some philosophical idealism and are modified and corrupted by other philosophical idealisms and are enacted by people subscribing to some philosophical idealism.
OK. What kind of damage has philosophy done to us (besides that on political grounds)?
Where would you like to start? Religion,Idealism, Dogma, Politics, Economics, War, Eugenics, Ethnic Cleansing and Racism?
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Dean wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
That sounds more like politics than philosophy. Isn't philosophy supposed to expand our understanding of the world and its nature (besides science)?
However, do you want to give a nice concise example where philosophy that has been a positive expansion of our understanding of the world?
I wouldn't know anything about that. I've never ever heard or read anyone telling the public that this philosophical quote has changed his/her/its way of thinking. For all I know, philosophy has the potential of helping us improve our lifestyles.
Everyone assumes that philosophy does nothing but good, yet there is little evidence of that. In its basic form, philosophy does nothing and gives us nothing, it has never produced anything of value, for every philosophical thought there is an counter train of thought that states the opposite view. One man's philosophical panacea is another man's anathema.
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Dean wrote:
We will repeat the same mistakes regardless of how much we know it is destined to failure because we are an arrogant species who denies its past mistakes.
1) What kind of failure is it destined to? 2) Not all of us are arrogant. 3) We don't deny our past mistakes ... that's what history classes are for.
Show me one case where we as a species has learnt from their mistakes. We are all arrogant. Empires still rise and fall, we still wage pointless wars, people still die of starvation. History has taught us nothing.
Joined: November 10 2008
Location: __
Status: Offline
Points: 65760
Posted: May 17 2013 at 12:54
I generally find philosophy a waste of time, and generally don't find it
interesting in song lyrics. As far as lyrics go I usually appreciate
the ability to tell stories or create characters or express emotion more than any philosophical twaddle musings. I can't say I've ever found any prog lyrics to be profound and it's not something I look for.
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
Posted: May 17 2013 at 12:50
Anyway, back to the brass tacks: The only sound things I can think of off the top of my head are only some of those penned by Mr. Hammill and Mr. Rogers Waters.
(I know this one is not prog, but here it goes:) "Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine" - don't mean jack s%$t to me, especially since the time of Jesus was rather very poorly documented, and I don't freaking know whether he has ever really existed. PG's "Biko" has brought the cruelty in the Apartheid-stricken corners of the world to the attention of the rest of the world, but had not done much else (at least to my knowledge, especially since my knowledge I find rather feeble, let alone in the history of the world).
I want lyrics that can change a person. I, as a songwriter, want to develop a brand of lyric-writing that can help improve a person's lifestyle and worldview (of course, that depends how I would define the word "improve", but that's a topic for another day).
Joined: March 10 2013
Location: Hollywood, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 869
Posted: May 17 2013 at 12:37
Morsenator wrote:
Dean wrote:
Larree wrote:
So... what the hell else are we supposed to do with our brains?
Something worthwile perhaps, if that's not too much to ask. A cure for the common cold, cancer, appathy, bad hair... anything other than the trite "I think therefore I am" bollocks, even origami is a more meaningful employment of an idle mind.
Don't know, but that sounds somewhat like a claim derived from a philosophically positivist worldview.
Joined: May 11 2012
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 59
Posted: May 17 2013 at 12:36
Either Dean's attitudes toward philosophy rest of some dogmatic set of values by which the consequences of philosophy are judged, or Dean's attitudes toward philosophy rest of some set of values which was derived from philosophical thinking about what is good and what are bad, by which the consequences of philosophy are judged. In the first case, I think it's safe to say that dogmatically held values have done far more harm than philosophy ever has. In the second case, Dean is sawing the branch supporting him. Either way, there's not much use debating with him.
Joined: December 13 2009
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 397
Posted: May 17 2013 at 12:35
Dean wrote:
Larree wrote:
So... what the hell else are we supposed to do with our brains?
Something worthwile perhaps, if that's not too much to ask. A cure for the common cold, cancer, appathy, bad hair... anything other than the trite "I think therefore I am" bollocks, even origami is a more meaningful employment of an idle mind.
Don't know, but that sounds somewhat like a claim derived from a philosophically positivist worldview.
Joined: March 10 2013
Location: Hollywood, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 869
Posted: May 17 2013 at 12:33
If we had no connection to philosophy or history we would be on the same level as farm animals. All we would be is food for something higher and deeper than us.
Also. One last thing. We, as human beings, should never disregard philosophy. Actually, in a way, we are all philosophers and we all carry our own mantras, ideas and outlooks on life that are different and unique.
Disregarding philosophy is next to impossible cause we all use it everyday even with ourselves only. You just don't even know or realize it. To me, if you castigate philosophy it means that you are a misanthropic, embittered person who really can't stand the noble worth of other peoples thoughts and opinions. Not very open minded to me.
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
Posted: May 17 2013 at 12:24
Dean wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
That sounds more like politics than philosophy. Isn't philosophy supposed to expand our understanding of the world and its nature (besides science)?
Sounds nothing like politics, though the philosophy of politics has some bearing considering that politics are based upon some philosophical idealism and are modified and corrupted by other philosophical idealisms and are enacted by people subscribing to some philosophical idealism.
OK. What kind of damage has philosophy done to us (besides that on political grounds)?
Dean wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
That sounds more like politics than philosophy. Isn't philosophy supposed to expand our understanding of the world and its nature (besides science)?
However, do you want to give a nice concise example where philosophy that has been a positive expansion of our understanding of the world?
I wouldn't know anything about that. I've never ever heard or read anyone telling the public that this philosophical quote has changed his/her/its way of thinking. For all I know, philosophy has the potential of helping us improve our lifestyles.
Dean wrote:
We will repeat the same mistakes regardless of how much we know it is destined to failure because we are an arrogant species who denies its past mistakes.
1) What kind of failure is it destined to? 2) Not all of us are arrogant. 3) We don't deny our past mistakes ... that's what history classes are for.
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sleeper wrote:
