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Alitare 
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 Posted: May 08 2011 at 00:16 |
 Garden of Dreams wrote:
Based on your responses throughout the thread, I gathered that you are not found of a lot of prog lyrics, although I am wrong on that but you seem to show dislike to Rush lyrics with out regarding the vast majority of their output to prove your point. To me, that seems a little ignorant. You are correct about my lack of experience with poetry but my experience with lyrics have led me to believe that lyrics and poetry are not synonymous in the context of music. Lyrics tend to emphasize meaning and usually don't focus on the meter, number of syllables and other poetic devices. Not to say that is true for all lyrics though.
I did not say that catchiness of a song determine the lyrical quality. If I thought that then I would not listen to prog. |
You talked of catchiness in your defense of Twilight Zone. I've heard a great deal of lyrics from Rush. I detest what I've heard. Whether they are blabbering on about going bald, or butchering a philosophy they don't even seem to understand
(in 2112, Anthem), or vaguely attempting to say something poignant about life and it's foibles (Closer to the heart, Limelight, The Trees, Freewill) or a spewing a bunch of annoying space rock and teenage pothead sh*t (Cygnus, Twilight Zone (another art they seem to have completely misunderstood. It was never a focus on science fiction and crazy things. It was a means of telling philosophical, psychological, and emotional tales through the mere guise of science fiction, but ol' Peart and the gang think it's all about giant babies and empty towns and men with three eyes! Spooky!), Necromancer, most the rest of it.) I never cared for them, lyrically. It's not like I heard one song and said that was that I've listened to every one of their pre-1982 albums numerous times. I even LIKE some songs. (Current favorite is YYZ because it cuts out what I hate most).
Tell me, what are some brilliant Rush lyrics that are so deeply poignant and impacting and meaningful on numerous levels? Is it free will? "I will choose free will!". Isn't that the dumbest line ever uttered? If free will exists, you don't have to choose it, you just have it anyway, and if free will doesn't exist, then you can't very well choose it, so this lyric is insipidly pointless.
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Garden of Dreams
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Joined: April 26 2011
Location: United States
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Points: 336
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Posted: May 07 2011 at 23:53 |
Based on your responses throughout the thread, I gathered that you are not found of a lot of prog lyrics, although I am wrong on that but you seem to show dislike to Rush lyrics with out regarding the vast majority of their output to prove your point. To me, that seems a little ignorant. You are correct about my lack of experience with poetry but my experience with lyrics have led me to believe that lyrics and poetry are not synonymous in the context of music. Lyrics tend to emphasize meaning and usually don't focus on the meter, number of syllables and other poetic devices. Not to say that is true for all lyrics though.
I did not say that catchiness of a song determine the lyrical quality. If I thought that then I would not listen to prog.
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Alitare
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Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
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Points: 3595
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Posted: May 07 2011 at 22:50 |
Garden of Dreams wrote:
The portrayal of Rush lyrics do not accurately show the quality of Rush lyrics or progressive rock lyrics for that matter. The lyrics accurately describe the events of that twilight zone episode. If you want more meaningful Rush lyrics (which I doubt you want to as you seem to not be a fan), then listen to the lyrics from their four "fear" songs, "Subdivisions", "Limelight", "Spirit of the Radio", "War Paint", "Armor & Sword", "The Way the Wind Blows", "Faithless", "Peaceable Kingdom" and/or "The Pass".
You may not like the content but that does not mean they are written poorly.
If you are looking for an emphasis on poet structure than read poetry. Lyrics are very rarely poetry and poetry very rarely work as lyrics. Writing meaningful poetry with proper structure, rhythm and meter usually do not fit in context of the song's time signature and rhythms. |
Lyrics don't work on a poetic level?
Leonard Cohen Bob Dylan Joni Mitchell Joan Baez Nick Cave Tom Waits Cat Stevens (at times) Jethro Tull
And when did I say I think all prog lyrics suck? My point was that SOME prog lyrics suck, and to think ANY prog song is more lyrically skilled than ANY non-prog song is pure nonsense. My goal wasn't to portray all prog songs, merely some pog songs with lyrics that blow cock. And since when did the catchiness of a song determine the lyrical quality? I love me some Janis Joplin, and she isn't worth dick for lyrics. Also, I love some prog lyricists, especially Devin Townsend, Pain of Salvation, Jethro Tull, Van Der Graaf Generator, and such. Maybe you don't know very much about poetry. :P
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Slaughternalia
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Joined: February 17 2011
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Points: 901
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Posted: May 07 2011 at 22:10 |
The Blacksmith and the Artist
Reflect it in their art
Forge their creativity
Closer to the Heart
if that isn't the definition of cheesy, I don't know what is
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Fyrus
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Joined: January 13 2011
Location: US
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Points: 44
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Posted: May 07 2011 at 22:00 |
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I still think Hemispheres is one of the best displays of lyrical usage around.
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Garden of Dreams
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Posted: May 07 2011 at 21:45 |
The portrayal of Rush lyrics do not accurately show the quality of Rush lyrics or progressive rock lyrics for that matter. The lyrics accurately describe the events of that twilight zone episode. If you want more meaningful Rush lyrics (which I doubt you want to as you seem to not be a fan), then listen to the lyrics from their four "fear" songs, "Subdivisions", "Limelight", "Spirit of the Radio", "War Paint", "Armor & Sword", "The Way the Wind Blows", "Faithless", "Peaceable Kingdom" and/or "The Pass".
You may not like the content but that does not mean they are written poorly.
If you are looking for an emphasis on poet structure than read poetry. Lyrics are very rarely poetry and poetry very rarely work as lyrics. Writing meaningful poetry with proper structure, rhythm and meter usually do not fit in context of the song's time signature and rhythms.
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Fyrus
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Posted: May 07 2011 at 20:10 |
Alitare wrote:
NEVER bad?
Rush - Twilight Zone: You wake up lost in an empty town
Wondering why no one else is around
Look up to see a giant boy
You've just become his brand new toy
No escape, no place to hide
Here where time and space collide
I could write better in my sleep, good god! 'you've just become his brand new toy!?' Oh golly. Not to mention all the times Peart butchered Ayn Rand's already obnoxious philosophical ideals, not that Rush had philosophical depth in the first place.
Or how about Styx's chef-d'oeuvre, Mister Roboto? I am the modern man, (Secret secret, I've got a secret)
Who hides behind a mask, (Secret secret, I've got a secret)
So no one else can see, (Secret secret, I've got a secret)
My true identity! Domo Arigato Mr Roboto!
Or what about that awfully banal 'poetry' from Moody Blues? Cold hearted orb
That rules the night
Removes the colours
From our sight
Red is gray and
Yellow white
But we decide
Which is right
And which is an Illusion
Gosh that sure is reminiscent of Tennyson, huh?
But I'm certain you think these are absolute wonderments of written word, yes?
And then there's prog metal, good lordy. All those progressive death metal song lyrics? I am NOT saying ALL prog lyrics are bad, hardly. I'm just saying I hate 9/10ths of all lyrics from any genre. |
Well that's your opinion. The question here is whether bad lyrics are a staple of the progressive genre. Comparatively, all the lyrics you mentioned are much better than most of what you find in other genres. The rush lyric you posted was word for word the plot of an episode of the twilight zone. I find that song to be quite catchy and fun to listen to. But that's just my opinion. Either way the only point you really have here is that you don't like most lyrics :p And I'm not sure Mister Roboto quite fits into prog... And prog metal! Listen to Pain of Salvation, which has the most intelligent and thoughtful lyrics I've ever listened to. But as I said, none of this proves that poor lyrics is a staple of the progressive genre.
Edited by Fyrus - May 07 2011 at 20:10
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: May 07 2011 at 17:40 |
Alitare wrote:
NEVER bad?
Or what about that awfully banal 'poetry' from Moody Blues?
Cold hearted orb
That rules the night
Removes the colours
From our sight
Red is gray and
Yellow white
But we decide
Which is right
And which is an Illusion
Gosh that sure is reminiscent of Tennyson, huh?
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I would suggest that the Moody's "Late Lament" (a stanza of which you quoted above) is fundamentally good poetry, particularly in conjunction with the stirring ending of the album Days of Future Passed. The opening section...
Breathe deep the gathering gloom,
Watch lights fade from every room.
Bedsitter people look back and lament,
Another day's useless energy spent.
Impassioned lovers wrestle as one,
Lonely man cries for love and has none.
New mother picks up and suckles her son,
Senior citizens wish they were young.
...is accompanied with a marvelous orchestral arrangement which mirrors the poem. It works wonderfully and is perhaps the high point of a superb album. As far as Tennyson, from a personal standpoint I find much of his work pompous and overblown, with an overwrought melancholy lifted directly from Keats. But then, Tennyson wasn't as bad as Longfellow or Wordsworth, who have been known to torture readers by the canto.
Edited by The Dark Elf - May 07 2011 at 17:41
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: May 07 2011 at 17:15 |
Fyrus wrote:
Poor lyrics? That goes from never to rarely. Comparing progressive band lyrics to lyrics from other genres... masterpieces!
I think Progressive music may have the stigma for having bad singers. While I don't agree with this, I can see where it comes from.
Never bad lyrics though.
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NEVER bad?
Rush - Twilight Zone: You wake up lost in an empty town
Wondering why no one else is around
Look up to see a giant boy
You've just become his brand new toy
No escape, no place to hide
Here where time and space collide
I could write better in my sleep, good god! 'you've just become his brand new toy!?' Oh golly. Not to mention all the times Peart butchered Ayn Rand's already obnoxious philosophical ideals, not that Rush had philosophical depth in the first place.
Or how about Styx's chef-d'oeuvre, Mister Roboto? I am the modern man, (Secret secret, I've got a secret)
Who hides behind a mask, (Secret secret, I've got a secret)
So no one else can see, (Secret secret, I've got a secret)
My true identity! Domo Arigato Mr Roboto!
Or what about that awfully banal 'poetry' from Moody Blues? Cold hearted orb
That rules the night
Removes the colours
From our sight
Red is gray and
Yellow white
But we decide
Which is right
And which is an Illusion
Gosh that sure is reminiscent of Tennyson, huh?
But I'm certain you think these are absolute wonderments of written word, yes?
And then there's prog metal, good lordy. All those progressive death metal song lyrics? I am NOT saying ALL prog lyrics are bad, hardly. I'm just saying I hate 9/10ths of all lyrics from any genre.
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Fyrus
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Posted: May 07 2011 at 14:18 |
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Poor lyrics? That goes from never to rarely. Comparing progressive band lyrics to lyrics from other genres... masterpieces!
I think Progressive music may have the stigma for having bad singers. While I don't agree with this, I can see where it comes from.
Never bad lyrics though.
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thehallway
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 13 2010
Location: Dorset, England
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Points: 1433
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Posted: May 05 2011 at 05:27 |
King Crimson776 wrote:
Alitare wrote:
Valentino wrote:
Alitare wrote:
How can anybody relate with Close to the Edge on a personal or emotional level? |
Very easily.
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Can you walk me through it, step by step? What am I missing? Why doesn't it make me weep or shake with emotion and intimate feeling? |
The "I Get Up I Get Down" section and the instrumental part immediately after give me that awe-inspired feeling... I don't know if that is what you're counting as emotion. Perhaps that is "intellectual" more than emotional. |
Although I understand Alitare's criticisms with the other songs he mentioned, Close to the Edge is actually very personal and emotional. It's about Siddhartha...... a real man! His struggle for enlightenment documented in the song, with it's highs and lows (I get up, I get down) and climax, is something I can relate to and many others have related to. We all go through difficulties, on our paths (whether they're paths for enlightenment, love, work, whatever....) and we all get up and we all get down, sometimes. Close to the Edge (the whole album) is far closer to reality for me than some other Yes lyrics and indeed, most other prog bands centered around fantasy. The lyrics are cryptic and make little sense, yes, but that only makes them more adaptable to our own lives. With some thought I can make what Jon Anderson is singing very personal to me and my life. I certainly can't do that with Peter Gabriel's endless puns or Greg Lake's cringeworthy battles with armadillo-hybrids and computers!
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The T
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Posted: May 05 2011 at 01:15 |
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Oh sorry I read the title and thought it was the Yes appreciation thread...
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King Crimson776
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Posted: May 05 2011 at 01:01 |
Alitare wrote:
Valentino wrote:
Alitare wrote:
How can anybody relate with Close to the Edge on a personal or emotional level? |
Very easily.
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Can you walk me through it, step by step? What am I missing? Why doesn't it make me weep or shake with emotion and intimate feeling? |
The "I Get Up I Get Down" section and the instrumental part immediately after give me that awe-inspired feeling... I don't know if that is what you're counting as emotion. Perhaps that is "intellectual" more than emotional.
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paganinio
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Posted: May 05 2011 at 00:51 |
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Ayreon and Blind Guardian (both listed as Progressive Metal on PA) completely changed the way I look at, listen to, sing, and understand lyrics. One is sci-fi futuristic, the other is Tolkienian medieval, but nothing is more truthful to the modern times than lyrics by those two bands.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: May 05 2011 at 00:37 |
Mista-Gordie wrote:
Dude youre totally crazy for me most of the greatest lyrics of rock music are from prog rock. |
 Iván
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giselle
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Location: Hertford
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Posted: May 04 2011 at 23:42 |
Alitare wrote:
Today was another day full of dread
but I never said I was afraid
Because dread and fear should not be confused
By dread I'm inspired, by fear I'm amused..
And I say nip nap, it's all a trap
Bo bis and so is this
Whoa whoa, to haiti, go
And watch it all come down.
Ding dong, a silly song
sure do say something's wrong
Smile a while, forget the bile
And watch it all come down
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A great example of prog being plagued by poor lyrics
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Alitare
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Posted: May 04 2011 at 23:18 |
Mista-Gordie wrote:
Alitare wrote:
But what about Prog versus singer/songwriter? What about non-prog experimental rock? (Ween, Flaiming Lips, Cocteau Twins, etc.?)
I know most folks think of Lady Ga Ga or Nickelback or Shinedown when they think of rock and pop. I understand that. But when I think of pop, I think Cat Stevens, John Lennon, Carole King, or whatever.
I absolutely hate lyrics about made-up mythical creature garbage. Where's the f**king human element in that hogwash? What's supposed to touch your heart and make you weep in Xanadu? What's supposed to blow your soul apart and give you despairing goosebumps in Gates of Delirium? What's supposed to break your resolve and bring tears to your eyes with Karn Evil 9? How can anybody relate with Close to the Edge on a personal or emotional level? I really like a few of these songs, but not lyrically or emotionally.
Some folks think that all pop music is just series of shallow, emotionless love songs. Take a f**king cue from Will Oldham or Flaming Lips for once.
Today was another day full of dread but I never said I was afraid Because dread and fear should not be confused By dread I'm inspired, by fear I'm amused..
And I say nip nap, it's all a trap Bo bis and so is this Whoa whoa, to haiti, go And watch it all come down. Ding dong, a silly song sure do say something's wrong Smile a while, forget the bile And watch it all come down
Since when did lyricism and poetry have to deal solely with the most extravagantly pompous, wordy, and unrealistic scenarios possible? Most of my favorite lyrics are as far from prog as you could imagine. Ian and Hammy are different cases, but when it comes to the likes of Rush, Kansas, Yes, Genesis, and the sort...I typically despise the lyrics. It's okay, because I ignore the lyrics if I don't like them. I'd only focus on the notes he's singing. |
What are you doing in a progressive rock forum if you're always saying that you hate everything about that style? get a life man |
I have a life. So do you. Even if I didn't do anything, I'd still have a life. I'm here because it's a storehouse of music information. I just don't tend to love the big names around here. Maybe you ignored me when I said I loved Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd, Steve Hackett, Peter Gabriel, VDGG, and such?
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Alitare
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Posted: May 04 2011 at 23:16 |
Valentino wrote:
Alitare wrote:
How can anybody relate with Close to the Edge on a personal or emotional level? |
Very easily.
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Can you walk me through it, step by step? What am I missing? Why doesn't it make me weep or shake with emotion and intimate feeling?
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Valentino
Forum Newbie
Joined: February 14 2011
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Posted: May 04 2011 at 23:13 |
Alitare wrote:
How can anybody relate with Close to the Edge on a personal or emotional level? |
Very easily.
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: May 04 2011 at 20:24 |
Mista-Gordie wrote:
Dude youre totally crazy for me most of the greatest lyrics of rock music are from prog rock. |
I'll admit my enjoyment of Jethro Tull, VDGG, Peter Gabriel, and Pain of Salvation, but even I'll admit I prefer singer/songwriters to prog rock acts when it comes to lyricism. It's just that most of prog rock seems aimed at something other than my heart.
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Prog often Plagued by Poor Lyrics?
