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Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17846
Posted: November 10 2024 at 09:01
I have posted in the past, when that horrid Political thread existed, that other music ONLY sites had rules against political threads. There are places for those types of discussions and PA is not one of them, never should have been. Policing of a thread like that is impossible, since a MOD would have to be 100% neutral and remove all the negativity, that is asking a lot IMO.
If you could, go back to the first few pages of that thread and you will see the comments, for the most part most of it was extremely negative. Darn right ugly, believe me I know!!
Talking about lyrics, feelings and even the stance an artist or band has on politics or religion is fine since that to me would be in the context of musical art. But flat out talking about politics just to talk about politics is never a good thing, never ends good at least.
I for one am 100% GLAD!!!!!! That PA finally made this call, it is 5 years too late but better late than never I say.
There are a gazillion sites to go discuss your political thoughts, good or bad......but please not here. This site needs to be fun again.
Joined: December 20 2010
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 11621
Posted: November 10 2024 at 08:38
Hrychu wrote:
^and is that an actual argument for not allowing these kinds of discussions? Regardless of human nature everyone has to take responsibility for themselves. I suppose I "can't take the heat" (I'm not really among the most political beings either), so I "protect myself" by staying away.
You are smart and I appreciate it. But, a lot of folk are much less chill about this stuff. And that creates more potential for dramas on this forum, thus, more clean up work for the moderation to do.
Missed this one. Thanks:)
I think the main person to take resposibility for oneself and one's well being has to be "you", yourself. It's like some of you have to high expectations of mankind or something. People are crazy. 2-3 % of us are actual sociopaths. We can't be controlled. Expecting others to "protect" you from uncomfortable situations that you can easily avoid, is not a smart way to go about it.
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17510
Posted: November 10 2024 at 07:26
Hi,
I really do not do politics, and when I vote, I'm the quietest person you ever met.
We had a hard time as a family in Portugal way back when, and even after dad passed away, there were folks still checking out mom as she got older and published some more of dad's work.
In the end her family suffered horribly because of it, with one of her brothers shot ... and we do not know, how many threats there were to the family, as both mom and dad never even whispered anything about it all ...
These days, I think that some things should remain personal and not a discussion ... politics is one, aside from the House or Senate, or equivalent in other countries. I like the idea of sharing some ideas and knowledge around, but other than artistic ideas, the others have all gone down badly for many folks ... and there were a lot of leaders that took advantage of the idea to be a carnivore. And in some countries you could say humans are just another animal!
While I think there are folks here on PA that are more mature and with it, in the end, I think that we will always fight for what we think is right, and not care about who is ahead of us, similar to folks here not liking people saying completely different things .... sort of like my God is not your God kind of thing.
But I do think, that shutting down everyone's comments and views, is (normally) an avenue to a much more difficult situation soon enough ... there are millions of examples out there ... you can't control folks long enough ... and eventually it explodes.
I would love to see some peace and love, not anything else ... I'm ok with dialogue, but even that is not something that many folks can handle on PA. It's not about right or wrong ... it's about being!!!
Edited by moshkito - November 10 2024 at 07:28
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14110
Posted: November 10 2024 at 07:06
Just one last though before I leave the discussion to other participants as I think I've already told my opinions:
What about the "revolutionary aspect of Rock"?
What about Dylan, Rolling Stones, even John Lennon, Janis Joplin, Doors, Woodstock and so on.
Rock and politics have reciprocally influenced each other. Of course Elven realms and Unicorns are common topics in prog, but there's much more.
Music concerns every aspect of life. The faith of Neal Morse, the Second Attention of Jon Anderson, the "Spaces between friends" of Roger Waters, love in general, sex and drugs and rock and roll, Anarchy in the UK et cetera...
Remember the musical "Hair"? And Jesus Christ Superstar initially considered heretic by tha catholic church? "In the beginning Man created God" from Aqualung.
Just one last question: can I say that I agree with Ian Anderson's sentence from Aqualung or should I be "neutral"?
The forum rules are clear enough about PA's netiquette. Enough to keep the site safe from "keyboard lions".
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Offline
Points: 43626
Posted: November 10 2024 at 07:03
Saperlipopette! wrote:
Cristi wrote:
Saperlipopette! wrote:
^What do you mean by abusive? It sounds more extreme that discussions going out of hand - which is closer to the issue isn't it?. Hurtful comments are simply unavoidable if you interact with other people about certain topics, such as politics on the internet. If you're too precious for nasty internet-comments. Stay away or log off, yes.
Your post here just confirms it was a good idea for admins to put a stop to this kind of threads for a while.
What the hell did I say that was so wrong? Is disagreeing with you trolling or abuse or something?
I never said you were wrong, and I never implied disagreement with me is trolling or abuse.
You are basically saying that hurtful comments (well, that can mean a lot of things like insults, verbal abuse, racism, xenophobia, etc) are just part of the conversation. Nasty internet comments are the most common thing, deal with it, if not just piss off... Right?!
And you are surprised admins and others want to take a break from that?!
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14110
Posted: November 10 2024 at 06:48
Hrychu wrote:
octopus-4 wrote:
"neutral" is a word that I don't like. If I have an opinion about any thing, why should I be neutral? I hate reggaeton music, should I be neutral speaking about it?
I'll leave it up to you. Use common sense. I don't think talking about Reggaeton causes as much toxicity as talking about politics. Politics are EXTRA SPECIAL CONTROVERSIAL. Here on Progarchives, not a single reggaeton related thread led to any drama and rude behavior from the userbase. As for politics on the other hand? Well, it keeps happening all the time.
A reaggeton related thread would make me rethink about the site, much more than any controversial subject.
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
Joined: December 20 2010
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 11621
Posted: November 10 2024 at 06:46
Cristi wrote:
Saperlipopette! wrote:
^What do you mean by abusive? It sounds more extreme that discussions going out of hand - which is closer to the issue isn't it?. Hurtful comments are simply unavoidable if you interact with other people about certain topics, such as politics on the internet. If you're too precious for nasty internet-comments. Stay away or log off, yes.
Your post here just confirms it was a good idea for admins to put a stop to this kind of threads for a while.
What the hell did I say that was so wrong? Is disagreeing with you trolling or abuse or something?
Joined: March 09 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 13351
Posted: November 10 2024 at 06:05
Cristi wrote:
Most threads about politics ended up in abuse and insults, that's why i never participate in such conversations.
If i want to talk politics, i would not choose a music site. Discovering music is the point of a site like PA.
I agree. Whatever is discussed in this forum, should be about music. Politics, religion, and other controversial topics, should be discussed in a forum dedicated to those topics.
Joined: November 03 2013
Location: poland?
Status: Offline
Points: 5358
Posted: November 10 2024 at 06:03
octopus-4 wrote:
"neutral" is a word that I don't like. If I have an opinion about any thing, why should I be neutral? I hate reggaeton music, should I be neutral speaking about it?
I'll leave it up to you. Use common sense. I don't think talking about Reggaeton causes as much toxicity as talking about politics. Politics are EXTRA SPECIAL CONTROVERSIAL. Here on Progarchives, not a single reggaeton related thread led to any drama and rude behavior from the userbase. As for politics on the other hand? Well, it keeps happening all the time.
Edited by Hrychu - November 10 2024 at 06:04
On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became. Ernest Vong
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14110
Posted: November 10 2024 at 06:00
"neutral" is a word that I don't like. If I have an opinion about any thing, why should I be neutral? I hate reggaeton music, should I be neutral speaking about it?
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
Joined: November 03 2013
Location: poland?
Status: Offline
Points: 5358
Posted: November 10 2024 at 05:45
It could be what you call "a cheap excuse", but are you sure that we can speak of this song without mentioning the geo-political issues it's about?
Personally, I think it is absolutely fine as long as it is neutral in terms of POV and doesn't come off as a preachy rant. Or, anything that doesn't try to elevate one point of view over another. I think it should stick to the context of the song.
But judging by the OP, octopus 4 clearly wants to do some preachin'. Some tasty toxic Trump roastin. Just another opportunity to show those blind stupid Americans who voted for the bad guy where they belong.
I don't support that type of "mentioning" geo-political issues. Not because I disagree (I agree, and I hate Trump). But because it very often leads to flame wars and obnoxious behavior on social media and forums.
Edited by Hrychu - November 10 2024 at 05:50
On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became. Ernest Vong
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14110
Posted: November 10 2024 at 05:28
^ so to this thread as well, you mean?
I think I have raised an interestig discussion. I know that the guy in your avatar would disagree with me, as for what I know, he has never been involved in politics.
But what if I start writing about Palestine while commenting "Luglio, Agosto, Settembre Nero" from AREA.
Settembre Nero (Black September) was one of the so-called "terrorist" Palestine factions. The song starts with a short poetry in arabic spelled by a woman with a sad voice. That poetry speaks of peace. She asks her man to give up to anger, pain and weapons. Demetrio Stratos solo vocals then introduces a middle-eastern flavored music that later turns into a sort of free-jazz form.
It could be what you call "a cheap excuse", but are you sure that we can speak of this song without mentioning the geo-political issues it's about?
Saperlipopettel pointed to "threads not related to music" forum section. That's where this thread should be moved to as well, maybe.
The point is: has any of us been "abusive" in this thread? If so, it's a thread's fault or an individual's fault?
You can probably remember what happened years ago in one of the many "Genesis vs Yes" threads. There's no need of politics in order to be bad.
In my view, politics is a subject like any other. Thinking to Trump as an example: am I allowed, in your opinion, to criticize or even endorse the man regardless his political positions? I find him hateful as a person, and I would find him hateful even if he was on the other side of politics. I'm not American and I personally didn't like any of the candidates. I wouldn't have voted at all, probably.
Said so, I'm happy to read about your opinions, now that I have hopefully clarified mine.
This is just a discussion. Taking actions is admin's stuff.
Next thread: Religion
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Offline
Points: 43626
Posted: November 10 2024 at 04:12
Saperlipopette! wrote:
^What do you mean by abusive? It sounds more extreme that discussions going out of hand - which is closer to the issue isn't it?. Hurtful comments are simply unavoidable if you interact with other people about certain topics, such as politics on the internet. If you're too precious for nasty internet-comments. Stay away or log off, yes.
Your post here just confirms it was a good idea for admins to put a stop to this kind of threads for a while.
Joined: December 20 2010
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 11621
Posted: November 10 2024 at 03:53
^What do you mean by abusive? It sounds more extreme that discussions going out of hand - which is closer to the issue isn't it?. Hurtful comments are simply unavoidable if you interact with other people about certain topics, such as politics on the internet. If you're too precious for nasty internet-comments. Stay away or log off, yes.
Edited by Saperlipopette! - November 10 2024 at 03:56
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Hrychu wrote:
Right?! 