Is Italian prog epigonic?

It's just music...

Edited by David_D - May 31 2023 at 05:39

^ No worries, I think you made a good point. Thanks.

^ I understand, Cristi, but editing is not easy even for an ex editor (still do some for a uni but my brain is just not up to the task anymore). What I often do is just use ^ and ^^, that's what I should have done.   I'll remove the quotes. I see you got a thanks, so clearly you are not alone. Anyone interested can always read back through the thread. I do appreciate the feedback. I actually do often think that quoting is much overused and it can break up the flow of the thread -- it has its benefits of course in forums.

Edited by Logan - May 30 2023 at 11:59

^ Well since you asked so very nicely with please, no!

Sorry Cristi, but it's harder for me to follow the context and flow without full quotes (and it makes it easier for me to read full quotes when reading discussions from others). That said, it's not as easy a read for me now as it would have been for a younger, smarter and more alert me.. I worked as a copy-editor for many years, but editing is also a pain -- doing it in a way where one doesn't lose context or nuance, where one doesn't misrepresent another's argument.... This is why I prefer quoting in full or not at all often. Of course these threads are group discussion, and if it makes it harder, and it does, for people like you to jump in on the conversation with your own salient points, then I should take that into consideration. I was told by one very articulate PA member that he could hardly ever understand a word I said (probably exaggerating as most words I use are well-established in the dictionary), so kudos on getting anything out of it if you do.

Edited by Logan - May 30 2023 at 11:49

^^^ @ Lorenzo (aka jamesbaldwin)...

I didn't mean that I consider Radiohead to be one of the most important groups in rock history (although I do), nor that I consider it to be more important than Dylan etc. By saying it's more important to me I meant that it's something that I listen to regularly and rate highly. If I were a rater at RYM, I wouldn't rate Dylan (nor Springsteen who I don't like/ dislike other than some early stuff), but I definitely would rate various Radiohead albums. That ranking is based on popularity due to calculating the overall ratings; it's not about best or more important. You seem to be looking at it from the wrong perspective from my perspective.

And in Prog Archives, Pink Floyd has three albums in the all-time Prog top 9. It is what it is. Pink Floyd has been one of the most important bands in my life and many others. Pink Floyd was very popular with our generation (Gen X) too. Lots of older brothers had it in the collections. It was my favourite band for many years. My eldest brother is going on 60 and he loves Pink Floyd (maybe not as much as he loves Nick Cave...)

It is a ranking of popularity, not best, based on an accumulation of a great many ratings from diverse groups of people. It does not seem strange to me with the way these are set out that if a an album by one group is very known and popular (gets many high ratings) then other albums by that act would also get many ratings and therefor rank high. This is why I don't understand some who complain about certain groups dominating with multiple albums -- it just means that those are well0-known and popular groups with a great many. If I made 10 best list. I would do one per artist, but that's not how those sites, including PA work when it comes to the lists.

Bowie is incredibly popular, so I find it strange that someone would take issue with that. Springsteen is not as popular, again I would not rate Springsteen, so wait. As for Lou Reed, of course with Velvet Underground he is very popular at RYM. And 20,932 ratings for Transformer is a lot of ratings. I had not idea that album would be as popular as it has been (I love VU, but I'm not that familiar with him solo).

I don't know what you mean by a serious, competent ranking in this case. I would expect several artists to dominate popularity lists the way RYM and PA work. People rate their favourite albums by their favourite bands/artists. What's there to take seriously other than if the algorithm represents the majority for ranking and if there's been abuse (as has happened at PA)?

I honestly can't grok where you are coming from and I wonder if you're missing the point of such lists.

Why should, say, Bruce Springsteen be ranked higher than Radiohead at such a site that accumulates ratings from individual albums from large numbers of people? I wouldn't personally rank him higher, and I would not expect the majority to know and prefer Springsteen... I'll do a poll on it here.

{edited quotes out due to Cristi's valid concern -- hopefully that make it easier for more people to read through the thread and join on this discussion -- great to get a few people with different perspectives chiming in}

Edited by Logan - May 30 2023 at 12:05

Edited by David_D - May 30 2023 at 13:00

jamesbaldwin wrote: Logan wrote: ^ I love Morricone of course. jamesbaldwin wrote: I consider a great merit that Progarchives has several albums by PFM and Banco in the top 30 (RYM, on the other hand, will never have Italian artists even in the top 100, by force of circumstance, no one in Italy follows it and the voters are not music connoisseurs like the PA forumists). jamesbaldwin wrote: Logan wrote: Italian Prog certainly makes this top RYM chart CLICK Said it before, but the value for me is the versatility in how you can customise the charts which make discovering new albums quite easy and I'm far more interested in discovering new-to-me albums through charts than finding things I already know well. Greg, you are watching to the Top Italian prog chart. If you see RYM Best prog albums of all time chart,  the first Italian album (Museo Rosenbach) is at number 63. http://https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:progressive-rock/2/ I'm not just watching it, by adding the terms Italy (location) and genre Prog Rock, I set that list. My point is that the value is in the customisation. Of course at PA when also can limit it to country: Here is the list CLICK I actually don't know what you mean by by RYM will never have them in the top 100 as, as you for the Prog chart, Zarathustra is in the top 100, and if you compare PA's rating to RYM's ratings by number of ratings, Italy's albums regularly have higher numbers of raters than PA. Maybe you meant all genres, all time? Here is the 1970's jazz-rock list (no other criteria/tags set than that), and you'll notice that Area is in the top 12. CLICK If I do it for 1970's Avant-Prog, Area'a debut is at number 4 with 3.77 and 3,083 ratings. Overall for all albums it's ranked at #65 for 1973, #2,221 overall (all years), which is not shabby. At PA Arbeit Macht Frei has 730 ratings. The value in the RYM charts to me are how you use them and how you customise them, and if one spent more time with that then I think one would find that it can be a very valuable tool. I have felt like your derisive comments about RYM in discussion over the years have been born out of a very limited perspective and experience with the site, and fits your narrative and your particular biases. ------------------------------- Anyway, to answer the title question, some Italian prog is epigonic, some is not. If you user a looser definition of Prog which includes more academic music and experimental and soundtrack kind of music than you find far more innovative, inventive Italian music. I do put ones like Morricone, Umiliani and Egisto Macchi under the Prog umbrella for music they created. Area is very unique, and Stormy Six is innovative. Greg,  I try to answer. 1) Yes, I mean that in the top 100 albums of all time there is no Italian album. 2) Morricone and Umiliani are quoted by Merlin like innovative musicians. 3) I love Stormy Six's L'apprendista and Macchina maccheronica, two of the most beautiful Italian prog albums ever, but I don consider them particularly innovative. 4) Italy doesnt have a great tradition of rock music. The exception is prog music, for which it excels, after Great Britain. So it is fortunate that in RYM Area they are in a good position in the ranking by year and genre. But the fact remains that in the RYM prog album rankings Italy does not go beyond 63rd place, after a series of albums that besides not being very beautiful (my opinion) were not even particularly historically important or popular (and this is objective, I could give you examples).  In PA there are 6 Italian albums in the Top 60. Anyway, RYM's charts are clearly dictated by Anglo-American, and at best French, culture. Italian albums inevitably take a back seat.  But that is not why I dont consider their charts qualified. I say this by seeing them: it isnt serious to give so much importance to a few moreover questionable artists (Kendrick Lamar, Radiohead)  for the firsts places. The fact that three Radiohead records and two by Lamar is clearly ahead of any record by Dylan, Stones, Young, Reed, Springsteen, Waits, is enough for me to disregard that ranking. I think the best charts are those made by specialised listeners, not those left in the public domain: those only reflect the tastes of the public accessing the platforms, and in some cases also of the most active fan groups.

- Bruce Springsteen - Born to Run 3.95 / 5.0 from 15,698 ratings #6 for 1975, #321 overall

- Bob Dylan - Highway 61 Revisited 4.15 / 5.0 from 31,188 ratings #2 for 1965, #55 overall

- Rolling Stones - Sticky Fingers 3.99 / 5.0 from 19,496 ratings Ranked     #11 for 1971, #205 overall

- Neil Young - After the Gold Rush 4.07 / 5.0 from 20,981 ratings Ranked #5 for 1970, #115 overall

- Lou Reed - Transformer 3.90 / 5.0 from 20,932 ratings Ranked     #15 for 1972, #380 overall

- Tom Waits - Rain Dogs 4.05 / 5.0 from 22,367 ratings
Ranked     #2 for 1985, #122 overall

That's a heck of a lot of ratings just on those classic albums. Radiohead happens to be more important to me than those (and I heartily dislike Springsteen generally, not that that matters). Thinking that the charts have no validity, and are worthless, as I think you have put it before seems very odd just because some more recent ones that you don't have lot of respect for are more popular there. I don't take charts that seriously period. If lots of people loved a Bieber album and it was top of the general music charts, that wou;ld not take away the value I have found in discovering-new-to-me albums thanks to searching the charts with, mostly, custom searches.

It seems kind of arrogant to disregard it because you don't hold some popular (much rated and highly rated) acts in high esteem -- try customising those filters more. This is a site of this millennium that has had a lot of millennials (and younger now). We're too young to have been able to appreciate the early 70s in music at the time.

And when comparing PA, it seems comparing a prog site's chart to a general music one is a rather strange approach (although I went through the top several thousand listings off the RYM general music chart searching for music in PA for a series of polls -- I did that because a considerable amount of what is in PA won't be tagged the same there (might not have Prog a as primary tag). Maybe rather than the chart position, focus on the number of raters when comparing specific albums in PA to RYM. I did have too much time on my hands.

As said, though, for me the value is in customising the lists to fine tune my searches mostly for new-to-me albums. It does help that great may raters do seem to align well with my tastes at RYM (better than at PA, actually, when it comes to music included in PA).

While I don't value charts much period in a sense (I do find it interesting often), by specialising one's search terms for the chart listings then I tend to find more personal value. But I also read reviews there and get a feel that way. I like the fact that there are so very many users ratings albums there, and there is such diverse music. If you don't, fine, but I can't empathathise with many of your comments about RYM and its many, many users. I'm happy to see that there are so many people who like the same music as I do there, and I do wish to focus more on the positives. That said, sorry getting into it again.

David_D wrote: ^ Okay, I guess you've been looking at RYM's all-music or Rock chart.