The musicologist and jazz guitarist Enrico Merlin has compiled a book containing 1000 records of twentieth century music.

Music without barriers: from Mahler to Opeth.

Not only western music.

In his book, the criterion he followed to make his selection is exposed:

As Merlin specifies, the criterion is NOT to select the "Best Albums", it is NOT to select "The Most Beautiful albums".

The criterion is: "the historical importance of each work, especially taking into account the intrinsic innovative content from the perspective of a music historian who is also a musician."

The assumption is that music always evolves, and that the evolution of music depends on the evolution of three of its characteristics:

- melody

- harmony

- rhythm

but, starting from the twentieth century, with recording techniques, with electric and electronic instruments, it is necessary to take into account three other parameters that DO NOT appear in the musical score:

- musical timbre

- dynamics

- expressiveness.

According to these criteria, Merlin has given ample space to musicians who during their career have developed very different creative solutions, while other musicians who have remained very faithful to one of their lines (a sound, for example, a genre, etc.) have been less represented. 

As I said on a recent review, you could argue that every single musician since Ug the Neanderthal picked up a bone and started hitting a skin drum and discovered some interesting noises that somebody influences somebody else.

There was, on PA, a massive row a few years back. I started it, and regretted it pretty much instantly. I wanted to start a debate about sub-genres, or more to the point was making an argument to get rid of all or most of the bloody things on the site. I made an argument that RPI was, basically, symphonic prog sung in Italian, and I received a massive load of abuse for said argument. It made me resign as a collaborator, and I learned an important lesson then.

That lesson was, don’t overanalyse. Don’t overthink. Don’t try to apportion this band to that sub-genre, or that band to that particular pigeonhole. Just enjoy the music, or not, as the case might be. If you enjoy it, tell the world and tell them why. If you don’t, then tell the world and tell them why in a respectful manner, because the artist put their heart and soul into the musical product you don’t like (I have not always lived up to those lofty ideals, but I do try my best).

I was just listening to Tilt (by Arti e Mestieri) today (and yesterday), Cristi, and found myself reminded of many, many instances that reminded me, whether in sound, riff, melody, or chord progression, of other bands (including PFM and Mahavishnu Orchestra) but sometimes the music it reminds me of came later like Jean-Luc Ponty and Bruford/UK, so, in a way, good call, Cristi!

Otherwise, Lorenzo, very interesting topic! Thank you for sharing. I know several of my reviews of 1971-74 RPI  "classics" contain many references to bands like Uriah Heep, Led Zeppelin, Mahavishnu Orchestra, as well as Genesis, Yes, ELP, King Crimson, Mike Oldfield, Procol Harum, Weather Report, etc. (I always feel weird that I find so few VDGG/Hammill similarities when I know they were a very popular band touring in Italia in the 1970s.) Still, I feel that some of the classical, religious, folk, and operatic in localized Italian culture lent themselves to the peculiarly "Italian" sound that RPI bands have earned. Interesting.

 

Hi,

Thank you. With only one very small detail ...  Ug hit a rock, or another Neanderthal ... I'm not sure they had invented skin drums then! 

lazland wrote: ... That lesson was, don’t overanalyse. Don’t overthink. Don’t try to apportion this band to that sub-genre, or that band to that particular pigeonhole.  ...

I'm not sure that this is going too far with today's audience, most of which more often than not are incapacitated by commercial music, and then when they hear something different, it is always odd, wrong, and out of left field somewhere!

I, personally, don't like the pigeonholes because of all the poop in them. First of all, too much is "decided" based on the "sound" alone, and this says absolutely nothing about the composition, or the work itself and its mechanics that work it into what could/would/might be a different state of mind, and thought.

For this reason alone, a lot of "metal" would fall off for not being original at all ... meaning that all we are doing is adding more copies to the copies and what we considered "originals", something that we can not even agree, since most of the folks voting and making these decisions, in my eye and ear, do not have a strong enough background in the HISTORY of the music over the years, and seeing another Admin make what amounts to a really bad comment on a band's this or that, to me, just shows that the folks deciding these things, probably shouldn't be there, but there is not much you can do when the leadership lacks the ability to tell the difference, IF that is the case!

Each country's music is never epigonic ... it just is a part of its culture and tendencies and other local details that might make it seem "epigonic", but it likely is not.

The other issue here is that, IN GENERAL, all instruments sound the same ... and many times saying that some band from Milan sounds like Genesis just because one of the synths used is the same or a related version, and to me, that is a serious CORRUPTION of the evaluation of the music, which ends up being, then, considered "epigonic" because the listener can not tell the difference in how the instruments are used and show on the scales/notes for the band. For me, right away, that writer is just another middle class nobody that does not listen to music and every time he does, it always sounds like some "master" out there, something which is soooooooooooooooooooo VERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRY academic as to stink up the place and PA in one fart!

Again, we have to get smarter about this, and I don't want to give anyone credit for something so stupid as to consider all music that way ... he obviously has never heard Eastern music, African music, Latin American music or equivalent, and all he knows is the "western pop/rock" idioms in music. The same is to be said about that book about the "instruments" ... which is ridiculous, when it is the player that matters, not the instrument, and it becomes somewhat of a selling point for many music centers by suggesting that this instrument is better than all the others ... like the Fender Jazz that Jaco used still is not superior to almost all of the stuff being done out there on 5 or 6 string basses! 

Some folks don't see the forest for the trees. Or better yet, they see a tree and immediately call it a forest! 

You're right.

I must write the prog albums included by Merlin in his ranking.

1) The Yes Album

2) Close to the Edge

3) 90125

1) The Piper at the Gates of Dawn

2) Ummagumma

3) Meddle

4) The Dark Side

5) The Wall

+ SYD BARRETT: The Madcap Laughs

1) Selling England

+ PETER GABRIEL:

1) III

2) So 

3) Passion

1) In the Court of....

2) Larks Tongues in Aspic

3) Discipline

4) Thrak

FRIPP + ENO: 

No Pussyfooting

FRIPP:

A Blessing.. Vol II

1) Aqualung

2) Heavy Horses

1) The Least We Can Do

PETER HAMMILL: /

1) 2112

1) Lumpy Gravy

2) Hot Rats

3) Lather

4) Joe's Garage

5) Shut Up

6) London Orchestra

7) Jazz from Hell

8) Civilization Phaze III

Extrapolation

My Goals Beyond

Shakti

MAHAVSHNU ORCHESTRA

The Inner Mountain Flame

1) Tubular Bells

1) Round About Midnight

2) Ascensour

3) Kind of Blue

4) My Funny...

5) Miles Smiles

6) Bitches Brew

7) On the Corner

8) We Want Miles

+ GIL EVANS: Skethes of SPain

1) Camembert Electrique

1) Octopus

1) In The Land of Grey and Pink

ROBERT WYATT: Rock Bottom +

SOFT MACHINE: 

1) Vol I and II (box)

2) Vol. III

KEVIN AYERS: 

1) Whatevershebringswesing

MATCHING MOLE:

Matching Mole

ALLAN HOLDSWORTH:

Road Games

Of Queues

1) Tarkus

2) Pictures

1) Arbeit Macht Frei

1) Abraxas

2) Caravanserrai

1) Breakfast in America

Aenima

Still Life

^Ay! That's a LOT of prog indeed! It also shows that the list is very subjective. I mean, all such lists are subjective in one way or another, but quite certainly the author doesn't care much for balance and representativity when listing. Almost 1% of the "most important" 1000 albums are made by Frank Zappa? I ask you! Chances are you'll find some whole countries that for sure have contributed to 20th century great music that have fewer albums listed than Frank alone!

I can see why you miss more RPI, but then as a German I can complain even more, I mean where are Can, Tangerine Dream, Kraftwerk? And France? Where is Magma? (Oh, I just realise that you may not yet even have listed all prog!?) Then given that there's two "core prog" Italian albums listed, it isn't exactly the best representation of RPI to have Demetrio Stratos fronting them both. (Of course I'm not saying that Zappa or Stratos shouldn't be listed at all, but...)

Anyway, everyone can make the lists they like, but for sure not being listed here doesn't mean that much. Surely it doesn't mean everyone who isn't listed is epigonic.

Now the message is edited.

GERMANY: tHERE ARE:

CAN, two albums

FAUST 

POPOL VUH, two albums

TANGERINE DREAM

SCHULTZE

AMOON DUUL.

It's often the most uncreative, close-minded people that think they have to come up with super-articulate genres, labels, and titles for everything.

Hi,

Careful. You might be pointing a silly toe to someone here on this thread!

To me, and I say this all the time, things are different. After 50 years of solid listening, I have a really hard time even selecting the "best" (what bs!!!) album, or "best" (such lack of intelligence) guitarist, or "best"(dumbest time keeper and snare drum user!") drummer.

It simply does not factor anymore, and all it says is that how it is all used in its own "realm" and "specialty" that makes the music far out and attractive. Thus, it is easy for me to say that anytime we meet, YET AGAIN, another person pushing the commercial side of things with the objective/subjective sheep dip, you know right away that such a listener is very limited, and the writer? EVEN WORSE ... if they don't resort to numbers, they go after the color of instruments ... wow ... such powerful symbols for the mememe generation! It says it all, really!

I answer to you and to others in the next message.

I partially agree with what Merlin says. I try to explain why.

Probably in his place I would not be so severe with the Italian prog, but I know well that the Italian critics (musical, literary, cinematographic) are very demanding towards homegrown works and very attentive to formal values.

So Merlin considers PFM, Banco and Orme derivatives, especially since their keyboard players were formed by observing the work of Keith Emerson (and David Robinson, for the Orme). Moreover, after the first album Banco and Pfm have complicated their music in terms of arrangements and formal structures, assimilating a lot of Genesis and Gentle Giant music. This is why Storia di un minuto seems to me much, much better than Per un amico, more original, more authentic, more Italian - less epigonic. Impressioni di Settembre is a song that no English band could have composed, played and sung like Pfm did. Idem for E 'festa, which is a tarantella.

Rosenbach Museum is certainly epigonic.

Now, the point, however, is this: in my opinion, these groups, with their first albums, have done better than their English masters.

So, if I use the concept of "beauty" as a criterion for my selection, I select their debut, if I use the concept of "historical importance and innovation", I might as well not select them.

In fact, Pfm signs only one great album, the debut, then produces a more refined but less beautiful consolidation album, then derails. Banco instead sign two great albums and a less beautiful third of consolidation. Le Orme signed three good albums, simpler, less ambitious - a little less beautiful.

(The keyboards of Collage and Felona and Sorona form a sound that, in my opinion, is inspired by EL&P classical music pieces, but reaches higher peaks)

I have no doubts about the fact that Area are much more original than Pfm and Banco e Orme and that their first album is one of the top of all time. And that Stratos was one of the greatest and most innovative singers ever.

Stormy Six, after a long process of assimilation of the structures of prog, have reached some remarkable peaks with L'apprendista and Macchina Maccheronica. The English influences (Gentle Giant) in the first album are clear, instead in Macchina Maccheronica (a timeless demential work) they churn out something original, not epigonic, of the highest level, but not very innovative.

It's all starting to blend for me, and I just know what I enjoy hearing. I lean naturally toward jazz fusion and symphonic most days. RIO. I find myself enjoying more dissonant, abstract pieces as I get older.

Well I guess on this site there was just a need to come up with some of the sub-genres for organizational harmony or whatever. I'd say a third of the ones on here are usually recognized outside here as sub-genres. Another third are sort of accepted elsewhere, but are often sort of just lumped in under a larger umbrella sub-genre. And then the last third is just the grab-bag ones where we're just like "whelp... guess it goes here." See eclectic, heavy, crossover, etc. And while I think there was certainly a neo movement in the 80s, I don't think any site or publication will truly agree on how it continued to develop, if at all, and what "counts." I always just take this site's listings with a grain of salt. Or six.

-In another hundred years, do we really care if PFM debuted two years later than ELP, when we know that the latter bands debut is so much more endearing (a slight joke, with a lot of truth to it:)?

@Saperlipopette: But as far as I see it, neither what Merlin nor what jamesbaldwin wrote has any implications on what you or anyone "should" like. What you say makes sense but misses the point. You can't mean that one should stop discussing historical importance just because historical importance is separate from taste.

Generally (that goes more to others than to you) I get annoyed by the flood of "this shouldn't be discussed" postings that many threads that in one sense or another discuss "quality" (or also genre definitions) attract. Anyone who doesn't like the topic can stay away of course but that seems very difficult...

Lewian wrote: Generally (that goes more to others than to you) I get annoyed by the flood of "this shouldn't be discussed" postings that many threads that in one sense or another discuss "quality" (or also genre definitions) attract. Anyone who doesn't like the topic can stay away of course but that seems very difficult...

Good, because what I'm actually doing is discussing.

Is there a list of the artists available? I can't find anything doing a quick search.

I suppose i'd have to order the book, huh?

I dont find a complete list on the web.

I've tried to write some list for you:
 

Hi,

It's a really tough area, but if you do not take a good look at the history behind a lot of music, too much of it becomes just another song out there ... whose totality is meaningless.

The sad thing, is that too much, for example, of the 60's ends up being totally meaningless to many listeners today. A great example is Iron Butterfly, and while I was not getting stoned like so many at the time, the long piece was very valuable as a far out example of what a TRIP really was. Nowadays, no one trips or has any idea what it was or meant, since the "experience" of music, these days is just about ALL OF IT about the numbers and the fans that shout too loud about it. And there were a lot of things ... just like saying that a lot of the Jefferson Airplane was meaningless, and it is simply not true. And of course, the one that folks still like/don'tlike would be The Doors, that are still considered an acquired taste.

The work of these, and many other bands, was incredible, and very important. And their place within the history of the times, is even more so ... so I guess that Country Joe MacDonald is just another a****le complaining about the war, or John Sebastian is just another stoned idiot out there. Heck, like saying that Woody Guthrie was an a****le, too! (Ought to tell you who supports commercialism, and who doesn't care!!!)

All it shows is the lack of appreciation for the time and place and WHAT MADE THE MUSIC in the first place, something that the commercial atmosphere has made a point of hiding to ensure that they can keep the sales going ... it will be a cold day in heck that we will see another artistic movement like we did starting in the 60's which morphed into the 70's ... in the next 50/75 years ... because the fans these days, don't believe in it, and worse ... don't bother reading about it, and think that being a trumpista is as important as their Starbux ... and who cares what everything else meant?

Considering the artistic, literary and specially the film stories in ALL of Europe, would tell you very quickly that it is very likely that the majority of Italian music that we love was NEVER EPIGONIC. No one will ever say that Antonioni, Fellini, Pasolini, De Sica ... were EPIGONIC ... and they were a major influence in the arts of the country and the attitudes towards a lot of new music ... but we refuse to look at the elements around it, as if all rock musicians in Europe were too stupid to go to a movie, a play, or read a book, which is the case in many areas in America and even England, where the advertising it boss and no one realizes they are being "controlled" to buy the product, and not bother listening to anything else.

I say ... LOCK THIS THREAD. It is INSULTING to all the arts in each and every country, and certainly doesn't say much for one Italian band doing theater stuff and then finding themselves doing a few gigs with Genesis, and they were ripped off and no one talks about other French, German and Spanish bands that did the same thing, albeit a bit different.

And the discussion, and some "authoritarianism" given the topic is bizarre. 

As folks that love progressive music, we found out about most of the music without the Internet and the fans ... and what do folks do? The opposite, because they might not have enough to say about the subject!

James, I appreciate your ability to intellectualize a lot of this stuff, but it is falling into the wrong ears and hands, that (sometimes) can not show an artistic appreciation beyond saying that everything is a copy of some London bullsh*t!

-I also know what a TRIP really is. It's not something invented by Iron Butterfly (not implying that you think it is) but basically trance-music, and has existed for thousands of years all over the planet. Possibly the first music - and the transcendental potential of music is still its main attraction. Anyway, I've long decided I won't approach art the same way most of my professors over the years presented it to me. Let me assure you that its got nothing to do with dismissing late 1960's counterculture/rock. Its more about asking questions, being honest and truthful to myself. Ideally allowing and accepting any expression from anyplace anywhere anytime and being open minded (which does not equal embracing everything). Never having to check the who, where or when before I decide whether it's for me or not. Many so-called experts do, and I really don't like it.

I write the records recorded in the years 1968/1976 that we can consider prog.

1968:

- Corea: Now He sings...

- Soft Machine voll I & II

- Tim Buckley: Happy Sad

1969: 

- McLaughlin: Extrapolation

- Amoon Duul: Phallus Dei

- Chicago

- Beefheart: Trout

- Colosseum

- PF: Ummagumma

- King Crimson

- Zappa: Hot Rats

- Davis: Bitches

- VdGG: The Least

1970:

- Soft Machine III

- Traffica: John

- Third Ear Band

- Santana: Abraxas

- Tim Buckley: Starsailor

- The Yes Album

- Can: Tago Mago

- Caravan: In the Land

- JT: Aqualung

1971: 

Popol Vuh: In Den

- EL&P: Tarkus

- PF: Meddle

- Mclaughlin: My Goals

- Ayers: Whatever..

-EL&P: Pictures

- Gong: Camembert

-MO: The Inner

- Rundgren: Something

- Wm Report: I Sing

Neu

- Matching Mole

1972:

- Popol Vuh: Hosianna

- Corea: Return

- Santana: Caravan

- Heep: Demons

- Roxy Music

- Schulze: Irrlicht

- Yes Close...

- Perigeo: Azimut

Davis: On The Corner

PF The Dark Side

GG: Octopus

- Can Futyre Days

- Eno and Fripp

- Tubular Bells

Sun Ra: Space

- Hawkwind: Space

1973: 

- Area

- KC: Larks

- Faust IV

- Genensis: Selling

- Eno: Here Come

- Hancock: Head

- Tangerine Drea; Phaedra

1974:

- Henry Cow: Unrest

- Residents: Not

- Wyatt

- Jarreett: Treasure and Belonging

- Mingus: Changes

1975:

- Parliament: Mothership

- Jarrett: The Koln

Davis: Agharta

- Napoli Centrale

- Eno: Another

- McLaugklhin: Shakti

- Queen: A Night

- Metheny: Bright

1976: 

Gyorgy Ligeti: Drei Stucke...

- Rush: 2112

- KraftwerK Trans

- Weather Report: Heavy

Perigeo were the only truly original and innovative musical expression in Italy in the 1970s - with the exception of Nino Rota, Ennio Morricone, Piero Umiliani and a few artists in the academic sphere. 

It is sad and perhaps difficult to accept, but the facts tell this. Almost everything else is derivative, epigonic, strongly influenced by Anglo-American models.

EDIT: Enrico Merlin wrote this.

1) Aqualung

2) Heavy Horses

Interesting that he didn't include what most folks consider Tull's two most progressive albums, Thick as a Brick and A Passion Play, and from the standpoint of prog-folk chose Heavy Horses over Songs from the Wood, which I would consider the better of the two albums and more groundbreaking in that specific genre. 

To each his own, I suppose. 

I disagree with this advice. I think that prog precisely exists because some people overanalyzed and overthought music to the extreme. 

Hi,

The sad side of this comment is that almost ALL of the academic studies are "analysis" to a degree that is, for your mind and mine, ridiculous, but it "shows" the ability and intelect of the person doing it. 

The harsher side of it, is that PA, like so many boards out there, are FAN SITES, and FAN DRIVEN, and it has become quite clear that the rule has sort of come about/around that this "over analyses" is out of style and not necessary ... wait until these kids go to college and try to get to Graduate School, and then beyond! Their "idea" will dissolve itself bit by bit and the "preferences" will have a tendency to drop off in favor of the analyses.

That is not to say that a lot of fans, can not handle the analyses. I think some can, but for the analyses to make sense, one would need to take up a collection, and knowledge of a lot of other comments that helped determine this article, and here is an area that fans don't like ... (10CC soap box!) ... how dare you think that and the music is not about that! It's about the grovel! 

Reading, recently, "Heretical Empiricism" and then re-reading this whole thread is scary ... we simply do not see the academic side of things and how they look at it all, even though Pasolini's look as more from a "linguistic" style than it is anything that academics can come up with. This is something that is difficult for modern listeners ... that little music was written, just like literature, and for hundreds of years, a lot of it survived by word of mouth, and his contention is that the place, the time, and the culture, determined the differences. We see that here, with so many bands from everywhere, and in their own way, but we can not look at them in this "linguistic" style, because our only concern, is ... right or wrong ... if it is "progressive" and worthy of mention!

In the 70's at our house, dad was doing a lot of critical works on various literature, and his style is also highly academic and not defined by anything except what they had formulated. As an example, Fellini, Antonioni, Lean and others were "masters" and when I mentioned Roeg, Altman and others, I was given the sniff and the ignore and their conversation about the ridiculousness of the kiss was continued (you can see this later in "Cinema Paradiso"), and this is the side of "history" that fans, today, can not relate to or understand, I don't think, and an "analyses" is only going to make it worse.

I think there is a place for the academic study, but it would be necessary for RYM and PA and other "progressive" websites to improve their stratosferic idea that a badly defined set of music is this or that ... it needs to be defined by the content, not the instruments, and the mandatory solo, or the stupid blue guitar, or the growl, or the loudness, which is the main reason why I say ... it has to be UNPLUGGED so that we can see ... that's not music, that's crap! Guess what is more epigonic than that article?

The classic Italian Prog is just great. 

I like it very much.

And Italy is definitely among my very most favourite Prog nations.

I miss Michael (Aussie-Byrd-Brother) poetic Italian Reviews. Michael was my RPI tour guide. He taught and turned me on to scores of Italian bands. Don't worry, he's alive.  Probably, knee-deep in the river of life. 

Greg, you are watching to the Top Italian prog chart.

If you see RYM Best prog albums of all time chart, 

the first Italian album (Museo Rosenbach) is at number 63.

http://https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:progressive-rock/2/" rel="nofollow - http://https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:progressive-rock/2/

If I remember well, 

Micky's fave Italian prog album is Palepoli.

PS What Italian GIALLO movies are you watching?

Hi,

Don't forget that Italy has a massive history of music on the classical style, and more than likely on the popular styles as well, but since Italy was not a complete country (like it is today) the differences and variations between north and south alone (Pasolini) would render the calling it "Italian", a rather absurd idea.

My main thought here is that in places like the USA, you have, literally, 3 or 4 different countries and they don't agree on anything, regardless of what it is and who "rules" it. Thus, the music in America is all over the place and difficult to even place in a well defined context, as in here, in "progressive" ... KANSAS is fine for one or two cuts, and albums, but not for much else I did not think. CHICAGO is very experimental and has all the "elements" that the stupid progressive definition has, and yet, many folks/places do not like it in "progressive" because it has horns ... ohh yeah, it had hits too!

Other than Spain, in Europe, I'm not sure that all other countries have such a RICH history of music as does Italy. It's hard to say that about France, but it has been destroyed and rebuilt too much going back to the guillotine days, when insanity was the rule and the law. Germany, has had destruction to the core a few too many times, and when that happens, a lot of the "culture" also goes out the window. Portugal is minor in this equation. England, I tend to not mention much, except that the music threads in there are similar to America (too many countries in one place) and the different flavors make it difficult to create a good sense of it all ... but it did really well when it came to "progressive" music and helped define it, although it was not as "original" as they thought when so much of it was copied off a lot of European styles ... and a lot of music that was crazy, specially the jazz that was going around in the 60's and 70's (not the American players, btw).

The only thing I know is that the article is EPIGONIC, and a lot of the fans' attitude here is even more so ... in fact, complete opposite the spirit of what progressive meant right from the start ... but I doubt a lot of fans today give a damn about that!

And for example, after Storia di un minuto, PFM wanted to change its sound for commercial reasons, making the canons of English prog-rock with an American sound: Per un amico, compared to the debut, was deliberately written and produced according to the canons of English prog. Isola di niente was designed for an American audience. These two albums have objectively lost the Italian authenticity of Storia di un minuto: they are more epigonic.

Autumn dominates my GIALLO movie marathon.   I revisit everything Argento, Fulci, and Bava. I subscribe to the Shutter horror channel.  They have a GIALLO subchannel.   Recently I viewed:

Death Walks At Midnight (1972)

What Have You Done To Solange (1972)   

The Perfume of the Lady in Black (1974) 

I save the GIALLO classics for October.  Masterpieces like-

Deep Red (Profundo Rosso) (1975)

Blood and Black Lace (1964)

Opera (1987)

Don't Torture a Duckling (1972)

Your Vice is in a Locked Room and Only I Have the Key (1972)

I advice: Indagine su un cittadino al di sopra di ogni sospetto - Elio Petri director.

PS Have you seen: 

Hi,

Guess where I read a lot of this stuff ... Pasolini in the book suggested elsewhere.

I have never thought of Le Orme, Banco, PFM, and a couple of others as "epigonic" of the more commercial western music. It was, inevitable, due to the "fame" and all the hoopla in the media from America and England, about thosse bands and how famous they were. That many tried to steer their music towards that other style and ability, is another story, although I don't think that PFM sounded like they were preening for an American audience ... the American audience gave them a very good number of sales, starting with New York, of course! It's hard to ignore things from that and then not come over and have some fun with the new mint!

Compare this to Le Orme, or Banco, who never really gave a darn about the western anything and went on to do their own thing, although "Smogmagica" was a very American album, however it STILL did not take away from their style and ability ... it was "a good translation" if I may use that analogy, and they went back to their strength more or less. Banco lived on and didn't need much except their incredible singer that made the band more valuable and important than they are given credit for.

I don't know about the westernization of Italian rock music, and there are/were a lot of things that are not as much rock defined as they were classically defined (Royale Academie de Musica) and others ... but I have to admit that there were some nice things here and there ... I enjoyed Acqua Fragile although that was very westernized however it was a tight and well defined band. I had Uno in my collection die to the cover and it wasn't bad, although you could see the PF influence ... not surprised with a Hipgnosis cover!

In general, Italy was no different than anyone else through out the 70's and 80's for me, when the corporatization of rock music changed things, and created the monster that we have today, that will not allow, or really appreciate new music ... and it will take another artistic revolution like the 60's with literature, painting, film and all the arts for new rock music to come around ... it can't be with or about the old stuff ... and THIS IS THE HISTORY OF MUSIC in general, and rock is following right along ... it will be another 20 years, I think, before a new artistic ear comes around ... and I'm not sure that we will see it in our old age and even gone.

but there will always be "hints" of what was to come ... like a lot of Miles, and many other jazz free form folks in America did not immediately show rock musicians how it could be done ... we just don't like to think that one thing influenced another ... just like we hate it when our own parents try to mold us into their version of themselves ... what else is new? Same story all along! Guess what the corporate structure and the internet are doing? Exactly the same!

Possibly, Investigation of a Citizen Above Suspicion is my fave Italian film ever....

Greg, 

I try to answer.

1) Yes, I mean that in the top 100 albums of all time there is no Italian album.

2) Morricone and Umiliani are quoted by Merlin like innovative musicians.

3) I love Stormy Six's L'apprendista and Macchina maccheronica, two of the most beautiful Italian prog albums ever, but I don consider them particularly innovative.

4) Italy doesnt have a great tradition of rock music. The exception is prog music, for which it excels, after Great Britain. So it is fortunate that in RYM Area they are in a good position in the ranking by year and genre. But the fact remains that in the RYM prog album rankings Italy does not go beyond 63rd place, after a series of albums that besides not being very beautiful (my opinion) were not even particularly historically important or popular (and this is objective, I could give you examples). 

Anyway, RYM's charts are clearly dictated by Anglo-American, and at best French, culture. Italian albums inevitably take a back seat. 

But that is not why I dont consider their charts qualified. I say this by seeing them: it isnt serious to give so much importance to a few moreover questionable artists (Kendrick Lamar, Radiohead)  for the firsts places. The fact that three Radiohead records and two by Lamar is clearly ahead of any record by Dylan, Stones, Young, Reed, Springsteen, Waits, is enough for me to disregard that ranking. I think the best charts are those made by specialised listeners, not those left in the public domain: those only reflect the tastes of the public accessing the platforms, and in some cases also of the most active fan groups.

I don't know which way you've been looking at RYM's Progressive Rock chart, but according to the usual way ( https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:progressive-rock/2/ ), the best Italian Prog positions are:

Museum Rosenbach - Zarathustra , # 63

PFM - Per un Amico, # 69

Banco - Darwin!, # 75

Banco - s/t,  # 77

PFM - Storia di un Minuto,  # 78

Picchio dal Pozzo - s/t,  # 81

Banco - Io Sono Nato...,  # 85

Area - Arbeit Macht Frei,  # 94

Hi,

I don't want to comment on RYM and their choices for design and all that. I think that leaving it open, like it seems to be is not a good idea, since today's youngsters would never vote for Mozart, Beethoven or Vivaldi ... or appreciate the compositions by our own Emerson!

But it tells you that the design is totally ethnocentric and not about the music itself. I would almost suggest that the majority of "voters" for their choices have not even listened to 5 minutes worth of any of those albums, as they have hours and hours of their "favorites". This is a really bad idea, and the results are ... exactly what we see ... not very good.

My only other comment, and the reason why I will not bother with RYM any time soon, is that there really are no "forums" and the sub-genre's are insane with so many versions of the same thing, one for whites, one for venusians and one for blues and one for mercurians! There is no "differentiation" to the music design except that it is from somewhere else, and most folks don't really listen to it as much as they otherwise should, I would think.

This is not, and neither is PA, about creating a special group that "determines" what "progressive Music" really is, but I do think that PA is in a GREAT POSITION to lead the way to help define it right and properly, and then go after others to help develop the art form properly, instead of it all just being a bunch of songs ... that no one will remember when they are 65! I just don't know this can be done within a popular-driven forum that is not specially well suited to helping define the music, by anything except its own "invented" top votes! Gosh, even Virgin Records did that 50+ years ago to help make sure a bunch of new music was heard! 

^ Okay, I guess you've been looking at RYM's all-music or Rock chart.

Yes, you can read my answer to Greg-Logan above.

You consider Radiohead one of the most important group in Rock history, more important than Dylan etc. It's not my case.

But... I try to explain better my point of view:

Take a look at the chart of the 70's Top 40:

http://https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/1970s/" rel="nofollow - http://https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/1970s/

Why dont I like it?

For many reasons:

1) I like Pink Floyd a lot, but I cannot conceive of a ranking where one group dominates so much that it has three of its albums in the top six! And I am not even talking about the ranking of prog albums, this is the ranking of all music from the seventies. Is Pink Floyd so much better than the rest? Are they so dominant that they imposed their genre and characterised all the music of the seventies?

Personally, I think of the classic Italian Progressive Rock as quite different from the English one.

Why do you consider Italian prog very different from English symphonic prog?

gigantic quotes are tiresome, like reading a big paragraph, nobody likes that. 

The metal forum where i hang out sometimes does not allow big quotes, this page would give them nightmares. 

no worries, my bad, I didn't mean it as a reproach. 

jamesbaldwin wrote: Why do you consider Italian prog very different from English symphonic prog?

Sorry, but I can't explain it adequately, and it's meant as a purely subjective statement - that's just the way I experience and feel it.

I also doubt much that the classic Italian Progressive Rock would be rated as highly as it is if people thought of it as something 

Hi,

Agreed!

And when one considers how Manticore selected Banco and PFM to be their first releases in America and England, it tells you that the guys at Manticore, and ELP had an appreciation for their music, or they would not have been asked.

Simply because there are similar instruments, and an organ is used, and later a synth, the sounds maybe be the same to one's ears, but in actuality this is impossible ... since everyone's ears is very different and hears different things, and that would suggest we're projecting someone else's sound into the new group ... and this hurts a lot of new bands, as it did some of the older bands that are still compared to Genesis, ELP and the Venusian All-Stars! All that states, for me, is that the person writing those reviews can not listen past the comparison to give the individual their taste and touch a comment worthy of their work. And this is what has hurt the rock press more than anything else, and one reason why I dislike the top merde numbers, since it ends up having folks comparing to the "bigger" (and therefore "better"!!!!) ... artist in the numbers, and there goes the chance for a lot of bands, even though we came to find and enjoy a lot of things from 40 and 50 years ago that we did not even know existed ... but the stuff that is done today that sounds like a copy of a copy, is the one that is going to get hurt and ignored the most ... in my estimation, and while many of these bands are not my preference, in the end, they have the right, to do something, even if it is not an artistic ideal ... but I'm not sure that we should be "voting" bar bands to PA at all!

I think the "epigonic" idea is over rated since Italy has had a much longer history (possibly since it can go way back to chants and other materials from the church) of music, however, when it came to rock music, it is hard to not think that the success that many found in America ... was impossible to resist. That some stuff (supposedly) ended up sounding like something else is a bit strange and weird ... but it might also suggest how much the group does not have "inside" (like BANCO did!!!) to make sure they could be themselves and not some idea or other, like "sounding American" ... 

As PFM said ... "is my face on straight? ... " which I think pretty much covers the idea. Epigonic is just a word, not a fact, anyway! All bands, and us have things that we like and loved and we might copy a thing or two ... but so what ... the context is different, and we are not giving the band's that ability and choice!

I think this thread is getting a bit crazy ... WE'RE ALL EPIGONIC if we came from Adam and Eve ... so say a lot of Christian folks, and no doubt that large relic in Rome ... pushing kindergarten stories also!

So thinking that "music" is epigonic is simply a factor of our own genetics? ... just weird to see it all separated as if it was some kind of alien form in this planet! 

I really dislike when "intellectuals" start using WORDS to invent something that is not important, and even ridiculous. And this is more so, when you see an Italian playing a Fender, or a Yamaha Synthesizer ... but for some reason, we can only think of copies of something else ... oh, sorry ... I forget ... we're copies of the original 2 if the stories are right. 

I wish folks would realize how that idea is important to the thread that "society" is the law and rule (specially the upper class and orders), and that any violation will be "punished" ... and this is what happened to Adam and Eve ... a serious attempt to misplace the normality of youth and the growing during their teens. I just find the whole thing so bad and stupid, and we keep repeating it with the "epigonic" crap. Maybe A & E were tired of it, too, and wanted to tell it where to stuff it!