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theBox 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2005
Location: Greece
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Points: 427
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 Posted: February 19 2010 at 00:52 |
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Well, They are the epitome of Prog Metal. I mean, If it wasn't for Images and Words, prog metal would be a very different genre compared to what it is now. They are also prog rock because....well...progmetal is a subset of progrock whichever way you look at it.
In recent years, they have mixed their prog elements with an increasingly straight-metal approach. This is something that saddens me very much, and sometimes it is hard to like the band nowadays. But for every "constant motion" or "as I am", they go on and do something like Octavarium (the song) or the first section of "the count of tuscany" and they do redeem themselves in my eyes.
Bottom line, DT used to be a great prog band (up until rudess joined in), nowadays they have the occasional flashes of brilliance, but I feel they are not putting their potential to great use. Oh well....
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someone_else
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: May 02 2008
Location: Going Bananas
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Points: 24315
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 02:40 |
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I own two DT albums (Images and Words and Scenes from a Memory), so I'm not an expert in this field, but both albums indicate that they belong to both Prog and Metal. So I go with the majority.
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Camel666
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 25 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 133
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 02:44 |
Come on, is this for real? Why can't people just be happy that a progressive band has such a wide success? Considering they are practically the only one. Never really got this elitarism bullsh*t.
I understand there's people who don't like DT but they ARE a progressive metal band. If not, who else? You've got virtuoso musicianship, long suites, extensive instrumental parts, a high-pitch singer... not only they are progressive, they even are not that original at that. If THEY are not progressive, than what is Rush? Or Kansas? Boy bands?
Edited by Camel666 - February 19 2010 at 02:48
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
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Points: 66270
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 02:50 |
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Sadly there are folks who don't think Rush or Kansas are progressive either. It seems that at times the band must have originated in Mother Europe in order for a band to be considered progressive.
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Camel666
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 25 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 133
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 03:13 |
 rushfan4 wrote:
Sadly there are folks who don't think Rush or Kansas are progressive either. It seems that at times the band must have originated in Mother Europe in order for a band to be considered progressive. |
Never got THAT too.
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Man Overboard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 07 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Status: Offline
Points: 3830
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 03:27 |
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You might not care for their "unique" songwriting style or lack of subtlety (I certainly don't), but you'd be a damned fool not to see that it's prog. Just because it's prog doesn't mean you have to like it, and just because you like it doesn't mean it's prog.
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King Crimson776
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 12 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2779
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 03:49 |
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They are prog metal. Metal is rock. They are prog rock.
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friso
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 24 2007
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 2506
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 06:39 |
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Dream Theater play progressive metal (style), but they aren't very Progressive in my opinion (as in innovative). They might even be considered to be regressive on their latest albums.
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 06:44 |
Man Overboard wrote:
You might not care for their "unique" songwriting style or lack of subtlety (I certainly don't), but you'd be a damned fool not to see that it's prog. Just because it's prog doesn't mean you have to like it, and just because you like it doesn't mean it's prog. |
I don't doubt your sincerity here but take a step back and consider that there are many member of PA who might find the terms you use to couch such an opinion a tad intimidating i.e. if I express my sincere opinion but disagree with this poster I am deemed a fool. Please don't allow us to hoist you by your own petard.
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Raff
Special Collaborator
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Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
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Points: 24429
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 07:21 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
Man Overboard wrote:
You might not care for their "unique" songwriting style or lack of subtlety (I certainly don't), but you'd be a damned fool not to see that it's prog. Just because it's prog doesn't mean you have to like it, and just because you like it doesn't mean it's prog. |
I don't doubt your sincerity here but take a step back and consider that there are many member of PA who might find the terms you use to couch such an opinion a tad intimidating i.e. if I express my sincere opinion but disagree with this poster I am deemed a fool. Please don't allow us to hoist you by your own petard.
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Have to agree with Iain here. People will very soon be intimidated into not posting anymore if this kind of attitude keeps up  . I have seen plenty of slurs against bands I love (like ELP and The Mars Volta), but never once have I barged into a thread calling people fools, even if I think they are. Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I would be inclined to go for the last option. Personally, I believe true prog-metal to be other than DT and their many followers (which of course is not a value judgment at all) - Voivod, for instance, strike me as much more authentically progressive than DT, not to mention instrumental bands like Canvas Solaris or Gordian Knot.
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Nimell
Forum Newbie
Joined: January 13 2010
Location: Venice
Status: Offline
Points: 11
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 07:46 |
Raff wrote:
Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I would be inclined to go for the last option. Personally, I believe true prog-metal to be other than DT and their many followers (which of course is not a value judgment at all) - Voivod, for instance, strike me as much more authentically progressive than DT, not to mention instrumental bands like Canvas Solaris or Gordian Knot.
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:10 |
Raff wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
Man Overboard wrote:
You might not care for their "unique" songwriting style or lack of subtlety (I certainly don't), but you'd be a damned fool not to see that it's prog. Just because it's prog doesn't mean you have to like it, and just because you like it doesn't mean it's prog. |
I don't doubt your sincerity here but take a step back and consider that there are many member of PA who might find the terms you use to couch such an opinion a tad intimidating i.e. if I express my sincere opinion but disagree with this poster I am deemed a fool. Please don't allow us to hoist you by your own petard.
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Have to agree with Iain here. People will very soon be intimidated into not posting anymore if this kind of attitude keeps up. I have seen plenty of slurs against bands I love (like ELP and The Mars Volta), but never once have I barged into a thread calling people fools, even if I think they are.
Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I would be inclined to go for the last option. Personally, I believe true prog-metal to be other than DT and their many followers (which of course is not a value judgment at all) - Voivod, for instance, strike me as much more authentically progressive than DT, not to mention instrumental bands like Canvas Solaris or Gordian Knot.
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I think he didn't meant no harm or try to intimidate anyone... I encourage to anyone who don't think like him to step up and debate... Is a healthy thing to do and we all are safe behind our own monitors. No one could hurt us here...
Now, I think his logic is very clear... they are prog metal, then that's why they are prog, and that's why they are here in this site, like it or not. Now, if they are more metal than prog, well, is like saying that Pink Floyd is more psychodelic that prog or that Genesis is more pop than prog... I know this last two sentences seem to be "fool" ussing Manoverboard terms... but is in fact true... If we keep thinking "Prog" is a owner term, if we think that prog is something crystal clear and it have to be in every sub genre as a main influence we are not "progressing" and the term lose logic...
@Raff: you can like more prog metal bands, that's a matter of tastes again... but, to say that DT is a metal band with a brief show of progressive-ness... well... I don't find any problem with that, as long as we don't try to saved the concept "prog" only to what we like... I'm really stopping myself to bash Mars Volta because is not the case... but they are not mainly progressive as well...
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Bonnek
Special Collaborator
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Joined: September 01 2009
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 4515
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:33 |
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For me, they are merely a metal act with progressive tendencies.
I removed the 'merely' because that sounds to me as if being metal would in any sort of way indicate a lower value then being prog.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13635
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:39 |
rushfan4 wrote:
Sadly there are folks who don't think Rush or Kansas are progressive either. It seems that at times the band must have originated in Mother Europe in order for a band to be considered progressive. |
Yes, and at times, such threads and posts can become extremely wearisome. However, this getting on middle aged white bloke from Mother Europe will state that they most definitely must be considered prog, and takes his hat off and a huge respectful bow to ALL bands who further the spirit of prog originating from outside of the old continent. I've started to enjoy a great many of them through this site, and that is, clearly, the main reason why we all love it.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
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Points: 24429
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:44 |
jampa17 wrote:
@Raff: you can like more prog metal bands, that's a matter of tastes again... but, to say that DT is a metal band with a brief show of progressive-ness... well... I don't find any problem with that, as long as we don't try to saved the concept "prog" only to what we like... I'm really stopping myself to bash Mars Volta because is not the case... but they are not mainly progressive as well...
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Well, if you think I consider prog only what I like, then you're off base just about 100%. I'd recommend you read my review of one of my favourite albums of all time - Black Sabbath's Heaven and Hell - and look at what I say in the last paragraph about their 'prog-relatedness'. Same goes for BOC's ET Live, an album I love to death. Anyone who knows me here will tell you that I am anything but a purist, and will try anything music-wise at leat once. However, you don't know me, so you might be misled into believing that for me not being prog equates not being good. Edit: My avatar is a prog-related album - how much of a prog purist can I be  ?
Edited by Raff - February 19 2010 at 09:50
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Alberto Muņoz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 3577
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:52 |
Raff wrote:
jampa17 wrote:
@Raff: you can like more prog metal bands, that's a matter of tastes again... but, to say that DT is a metal band with a brief show of progressive-ness... well... I don't find any problem with that, as long as we don't try to saved the concept "prog" only to what we like... I'm really stopping myself to bash Mars Volta because is not the case... but they are not mainly progressive as well...
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Well, if you think I consider prog only what I like, then you're off base just about 100%. I'd recommend you read my review of one of my favourite albums of all time - Black Sabbath's Heaven and Hell - and look at what I say in the last paragraph about their 'prog-relatedness'. Same goes for BOC's ET Live, an album I love to death. Anyone who knows me here will tell you that I am anything but a purist, and will try anything music-wise at leat once. However, you don't know me, so you might be misled into believing that for me not being prog equates not being good.
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Jampa17 i'm curious to know how you define DT? because you haven't say anything about that, i woud like to know you appretiation (de tú ronco pecho) and not finding the negative side in other's posts.
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:58 |
Raff wrote:
jampa17 wrote:
@Raff: you can like more prog metal bands, that's a matter of tastes again... but, to say that DT is a metal band with a brief show of progressive-ness... well... I don't find any problem with that, as long as we don't try to saved the concept "prog" only to what we like... I'm really stopping myself to bash Mars Volta because is not the case... but they are not mainly progressive as well...
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Well, if you think I consider prog only what I like, then you're off base just about 100%. I'd recommend you read my review of one of my favourite albums of all time - Black Sabbath's Heaven and Hell - and look at what I say in the last paragraph about their 'prog-relatedness'. Same goes for BOC's ET Live, an album I love to death. Anyone who knows me here will tell you that I am anything but a purist, and will try anything music-wise at leat once. However, you don't know me, so you might be misled into believing that for me not being prog equates not being good.
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In fact, that's was not what I meant... it was more like "as long as we all like what we like a don't try to bash each other tastes and bands... we can keep discussing with each other...there's no problem..." so... sorry if my post was misled... I have seen your posts here and there and I know you are not a purist... I think you have put several times in all DT threads that even if you don't like them you consider them important to the subgenre and all that... I do ask for appologies because I didn't meant that... Ok...???
And I will try to keep away from this Thread.. as long as I already stated what I think about it... ok...???
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Camel666
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 25 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 133
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:02 |
Really, what's NOT progressive about DT's sound? World's most famous prog-metal band deemed to be NOT prog by prog fans themselves. Imho, it's the plain and old "they are succesful therefore I hate them and they are not prog or I'll tell mummy" scheme all over again. 
Raff wrote:
I believe true prog-metal to be other than DT and their many followers (which of course is not a value judgment at all) - Voivod, for instance, strike me as much more authentically progressive than DT, not to mention instrumental bands like Canvas Solaris or Gordian Knot.
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Agreed to some extent (love Gordian Knot btw, and even the Italian Nodo Gordiano :) but we need to get things clear here. If by "progressive" we mean only the "going musically further" part of it, then we should cut at least 80% of the bands listed on progarchives. The most-loved and utterly prog Porcupine Tree being the first, considering they sound like a broken vynil from the 70s. And I love them for this. Progressive is not only about being original and raising the bar, even though sometimes it might get down just to that. It certainly was born that way, with bands experimenting mixing genres and influences but with time it HAS become a genre of its own and right now it has its canons. DT definitely play by these canons. Ok, it's Rush meet Kansas meet Rudess all over again but it is prog nonetheless. Or therefore, I don't know anymore Moreover, their influence is so big that half of the bands currently considered prog-metal would sh*t in their pants, should we pass this motion.
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:17 |
Alberto Muņoz wrote:
Raff wrote:
jampa17 wrote:
@Raff: you can like more prog metal bands, that's a matter of tastes again... but, to say that DT is a metal band with a brief show of progressive-ness... well... I don't find any problem with that, as long as we don't try to saved the concept "prog" only to what we like... I'm really stopping myself to bash Mars Volta because is not the case... but they are not mainly progressive as well...
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Well, if you think I consider prog only what I like, then you're off base just about 100%. I'd recommend you read my review of one of my favourite albums of all time - Black Sabbath's Heaven and Hell - and look at what I say in the last paragraph about their 'prog-relatedness'. Same goes for BOC's ET Live, an album I love to death. Anyone who knows me here will tell you that I am anything but a purist, and will try anything music-wise at leat once. However, you don't know me, so you might be misled into believing that for me not being prog equates not being good.
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Jampa17 i'm curious to know how you define DT? because you haven't say anything about that, i woud like to know you appretiation (de tú ronco pecho) and not finding the negative side in other's posts. |
Well... answering to you (I said above that I didn't post anymore in this thread but well...) I notice in DT all discography evident references to Rush... in fact their first two albums sounds a 50% like Rush and the other 35% like Iron Maiden and the rest 15% somekind of 80's hair metal...
After Awake I found a more consistent "original" stuff... more purely DT with a lot of different elements like U2, Rush, Metallica, Van Halen, King Crimson, Yes and everything merged to sound in a complete "new" thing. I think you can follow me if you have heard Awake, Falling into Infinity, Octavarium and Systematic Chaos.
Now... I know that in the last decade they have focused maybe the 50% in metal... but they remain highly progressive with songs like Octavarium, Six Degrees, Blind Faith, In Presence of Enemies, The Count, A Nightmare to Remember and so on... Don't know if this answer your question...?
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Windhawk
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 28 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 11401
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:27 |
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Well, if we're discussing progressive rather than prog, we can safely remove at least 4900 artists from the database here, most probably many more. Of the ones left, we might have 2 or 3 albums max by any artist that in themselves can be deemed innovative and groundbreaking - truly progressive. After that any artist will start replicating themseles to a lesser or greater degree, and while these subsequent albums might be worthwhile and even stellar in quality, they won't any longer be truly groundbreaking nor truly innovative.
As far as DT goes - if merited by the standards of the site, their claim as progressive should be rather clear. Whether you like them or not, they have at least one prog album in their discography.
They've never been hardcore progressive of course, and while innovative it has been more in a genre expanding manner reaching out to non-prog music. And whether you like it or loathe it - they did pave the way for the subsequent wave(s) of sophisticated metal artists.
Like ELP and a score of other artists in the 70's they are way too fond of instrumental masturbation, that is their major weak point. Arguably alongside the vocal antics of James LaBrie. He does a rather good job of melting earwax though ;-)
Personally I'm most fond of their least progressive outing - their debut effort. With the vocals on that production very much the reason for that being the case.
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Dream Theater - Prog or not?
