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PA the only site to recognize J-R Fusion as Prog?
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BrufordFreak View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I'd never considered Jazz Rock/Fusion to be Progressive Rock until I arrived at ProgArchives, but I'm glad it's included here. After all, where else could I listen to Blood, Sweat & Tears, Chicago, Santana and Steely Dan and still call it prog. Smile 

Not me: My sense of what was "progressive rock" has always included a broader array/spectrum of artists and styles than that which PA espouses (including XTC, Joni Mitchell, Eno's Ambient music, Stereolab, Steely Dan, Freddy Hubbard, Cocteau Twins, and a lot of the 1980s' techno-, glam-, dream-, "New Wave" pop as well as Goth Rock [The Cure, Siouxsie, Depeche Mode, New Order, etc.]).  
 

By the way, I also love the way PA categorises artists under one prog sub-genre for an entire discography. I wouldn't have it any other way, which is why I never use RYM to look up artists and albums. Smile

I can see and appreciate the value of having an album-by-album categorization system. My favorite case in point: Miles Davis. (Yeah that's right, Freak: beat it to death!)
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Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Do you consider J-R Fusion as a form/expression of Prog?

Do you resent J-R Fuse taking up so much space on ProgArchives--wish it were relegated to M™x's other music website, JazzMusicArchives?

Sincerely, 
Drew



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I think of it as prog friendly. However, as progressive music inherently tends to blend different genres, I think it's a plus to include jr fusion and others "in the outer realms of prog", as somebody said
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Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

yarstruly (Scott Rich)'s recent review of 100 great prog albums has led me to wonder if ProgArchives is the only site to harbor Jazz-Rock Fusion under its umbrella.

Do you consider J-R Fusion as a form/expression of Prog?

Sincerely, 
Drew

Oh God yes!!  King Crimson is a crossover of J-R Fusion and Symphonic, and JRF has influenced all of the main symphonic acts including Yes, ELP, Genesis etc.  

I love the virtuosity that many J-R Fusion players including John McLaughlin (aka "God"), the late/great John Goodsall, Chick Corea etc.   If anything, I'd wish for more generous interaction between JRF and other prog categories.  

Here, watch his playing, ye mighty, and despair!!  I mean, Steve Howe is fast, but this guy is sick!!  
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Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

And for the record, PA is not the only website where JRF can be listed as prog. Cool

I had a feeling this was the case. I respect your breadth of experience enough, Mike, to accept your input as truth.

The odd thing about the above fact, then, is that most prog lovers will include Mahavishnu Orchestra and maybe even Return to Forever (and Al Di Meola) as prog artists!


It's kind of a spectrum. When does red stop being red and become another color? There's a transition through various wavelengths. Same goes with music. Mahavishnus are clearly prog rock mixed with jazz. Sun Ra is jazz fusion but not with prog or even rock which is why he's not here. Some of the artists on PA though are questionable. Like Steely Dan for example. That's jazz rock for sure but not really prog rock


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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:


Hi,

Nice listing and enjoyable, although I wonder how Jeff Beck is considered "non-prog" when he was instrumental (in reality also!!!) in expanding the palate of pop music that eventually became known as progressive.

I suppose that it is so, because today folks think this is all just another song, and it sounds/is strange and weird, and does not follow the generalities that are assigned to "prog" ... much. The strange side is how some music that took the plunge into a completely new area, which ended up giving "progressive" a lot of its definitions ... when one looks at the details, Jeff Beck ticks all of them and even adds some.

It's a real puzzle how folks make these decisions ... really crazy ... especially when Jeff Beck was at the forefront of a lot of it, but he was less worried about what the music was, or was not, than he was about doing something neat ... and different ... which he excelled at.

If I had to name a few musicians that needed to be listed at the top as part of the "progressive" history ... I would think that Jeff Beck fits really well in it. I kinda felt like he gave Steve Howe almost all of his ideas!
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Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Oh God yes!!  King Crimson is a crossover of J-R Fusion and Symphonic, and JRF has influenced all of the main symphonic acts including Yes, ELP, Genesis etc.


IMHO, the ultimate expression of symphonic fusion belongs to Kenso, who are finally back with a new album!

An Old Warrior Shook the Sun is out on 11/13.
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Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

1. I see a many albums/acts tagged as progressive rock (or Canterbury Scene which I consider Prog) and jazz-rock as well as jazz fusion at RateYourMusic.

See: https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:all,jazz%2drock,progressive%2drock/ & https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:all,progressive%2drock,jazz%2dfusion/

Yes, there's definitely quite a lot of overlap between Progressive Rock and Jazz-Rock / Jazz Fusion.
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It is as much as progressive electronic, post-rock, krautrock or psychedelic that's for sure. Maybe even more so than any of those. Maybe fusion is little p prog (like the others) and not big P prog. 
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:


Hi,

Nice listing and enjoyable, although I wonder how Jeff Beck is considered "non-prog" when he was instrumental (in reality also!!!) in expanding the palate of pop music that eventually became known as progressive.

Like I said, there is little data on many of these releases. I would certainly tag some of these Jeff Beck albums as at least Prog-Adjacent, and probably they are more Rock than Jazz anyway. All these releases are hard to describe in terms of genre, which is one of the reasons for the label "Fusion" Smile
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

By the way, I also love the way PA categorises artists under one prog sub-genre for an entire discography. I wouldn't have it any other way, which is why I never use RYM to look up artists and albums. Smile
Yep. Absolutely. Categorising Miles Davis' Boppin' The Blues (1946), Kind of Blue (1959) On the Corner (1972) and You're Under Arrest (1985) like it's all Jazz Rock/Fusion - is obviously so much better than differentiating the genres and styles from album to album.

-Btw: I can't tell if you're trolling or not, except that you never do (troll).

Edited by Saperlipopette! - September 17 2024 at 14:50
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I'd never considered Jazz Rock/Fusion to be Progressive Rock until I arrived at ProgArchives, but I'm glad it's included here. After all, where else could I listen to Blood, Sweat & Tears, Chicago, Santana and Steely Dan and still call it prog. Smile 

LOL  and that's just to mention a few.



Edited by David_D - September 17 2024 at 14:50
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"PA the only site to recognize J-R Fusion as Prog?"

What I believe to be the biggest and most influential music site in the world, RYM, consider Progressive Rock and Jazz-Rock / Jazz Fusion to be separate genres.
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When I got into prog as a teen from 1980, without having much knowledge about genres (and not actually knowing what "prog" refers to), the connection between the prog bands I was getting into and some jazz/fusion that I got to know at the same time immediately struck me. I'd say I could hear that it's not quite the same thing, but many elements that I loved where there in both, and it was clear that they influences each other. I still see it like that, so it makes perfect sense to me to have JRF in here.

The only issue, probably already mentioned by others, is that when an artist is included, all their albums are included, so suddenly "Kind of Blue" becomes prog!? But I don't mind much. And it's no different with the first two Talk Talk albums, much of Franco Battiato etc.
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


"PA the only site to recognize J-R Fusion as Prog?"

What I believe to be the biggest and most influential music site in the world, RYM, consider Progressive Rock and Jazz-Rock / Jazz Fusion to be separate genres.


Which is not very relevant, since at RYM (and AP) multiple genres can be assigned to a release. So while these genres may be separate, there are (many) releases which "implement" both of them. Smile


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - September 17 2024 at 15:37
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

"PA the only site to recognize J-R Fusion as Prog?"

What I believe to be the biggest and most influential music site in the world, RYM, consider Progressive Rock and Jazz-Rock / Jazz Fusion to be separate genres.
Which is not very relevant, since at RYM (and AP) multiple genres can be assigned to a release. So while these genres may be separate, there are (many) releases which "implement" both of them. Smile

It is very relevant, as even there's some overlap in labelling albums, definitely most of the albums are either tagged as Progressive Rock or Jazz-Rock / Jazz Fusion and NOT both genres.
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^ there are tons of albums that overlap. In fact the Canterbury Scene is basically a genre that is both progressive rock and jazz fusion at the same time. Sure a few artists dropped out of that when Soft Machine went pure fusion and Hillage went more psychedelic prog but for the most part it's true. Same with Mahavishnus and other guitar driven jazz fusion bands. Very much as much prog as fusion.


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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

What I believe to be the biggest and most influential music site in the world, RYM, consider Progressive Rock and Jazz-Rock / Jazz Fusion to be separate genres.

Okay, "separate" genres wasn't the best word to use, it would be better to say "different" genres.
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It should be said that the adjective "progressive" was historically first used to tag music as applied to some eclectic jazz played in the underground clubs (in the 1960s Britain). Regarding the question and the opening post, it is undeniable that PA is definitely not the only prog-site that recognises JR/F genre as prog, while the things here really could be different literally from record to record and, of course, from personal opinion. For instance, I think that Mahavishnu Orchestra's Birds of Fire and Gong's Gazeuse! are prog, while Weather Report's self-titled debut and Miles Davis' Bitches Brew aren't prog for me. Or about vocal jazz-rock albums: Gong's Shamal is prog, while Steely Dan's Aja is not.

Edited by Starshiper - September 17 2024 at 18:34
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It is a progressive form of music that involves rock (in fact many jazz listeners don't consider fusion a form of jazz). As well, it's a style appreciated by many prog fans. So yeah, I'd have to say it's appropriate to include it under in the Prog spectrum.
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