Try to tell me your favourite album after Gabe´s departure. Try to tell your least favourite album in Gabe era. And now try to compare them, which do you prefer and why.

And ONE IMPORTANT RULE: NOT From Genesis to revelation PLS :-)

My favourite album after Gabe´s departure is Trick of the tail, but iam not able to say the worst Gabe´era, i love all of them, but you are maybe able to do that !

yeah it is very very difficult, i suppose that many people will say "Tresspas" tho.

but you and me, we are not able :-)

yeah but look at the trespass ranking here and everywhere almost fans consider tresspas slightly worse than others album

but ME ? noooo of course man :) I love all gabriel era

Hmm, it's really hard to rank the Gabriel-era Genesis albums as they're all great. I guess Trespass probably would be my least favourite but that's not to say I don't like it.

As for post-Gabriel, I prefer W&W to TOTT.

btw. ricochet: and do you like FGTR ? I like it, it is not as perfect as 70-75 era, but better than many Collins era albums (80´s) :-)))

hehehe i absolutely agree

it seems to be that we have same opinion about Genesis

you too, and what do you like except of Genesis ? which bands ? i know, it is out of topic, but

cool, i like VDGG, Pink Floyd, ELP,Yes,KC,Gentle G., etc.

Worst Gabriel Era album : Trespass

Best Collin Era Album : Trick of the Tail

They are similar in quality in my opinion. Both are great 4-star albums.

Nice to see the bonding between you guys.

I like Trick of the Tail best aftre Gabriel left.

The worst in Gabriel's era is a difficult one.
It must be the worst of the best. I like them all. Then I probably will choose Selling England by the Pound. But don't tell anyone.

A.- My least favorite album from Gabriel's era is "Selling England by the Pound", is the first one in which they try to be more radio friendly, I find softer than all the previous, Steve's atmospheric guitaris reduced (Except in Firth of Fifth). This by no reason means is a bad album, by the contrary it's excellent, but IMO Genesis lost the darknes and mystery of Trespass, Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot. I always saw SEBTP as a twin album with "A Trick of the Tail" (My least favorite release from the short Collins/Hackett Prog' era).

B.- My favorite post Gabriel album is by far "Wind & Wuthering", starts with two semi epics ("Eleventh Earl of Mar" and "One for the Vine") and has great tracks like "All in a Mouse Night" and the extremely beautiful Blood on the Rooftops, if it wasn't for the cheesie"Your Own Special Way" would be an almost perfect album despite the boring vocals by Phil Collins, a return to the root, and also the album that has the biggest contribution of Steve Hackett as a composer, but still bellow the level of every Gabriel era album.

Iván

My least favourtite Gabriel Genesis is Trespass, very weak album!

Favourite Collins? Maybe Trick Of The Tail.

For me TOTT wins that one very easily, as I find Trespass comploetely uninspiring.

floyd68 wrote: I agree - if we skip FGTR, Trespass seems to be the "weakest" studio effort during the gabriel era. However "the knife" is a killer song. IMHO Genesis live is the weakest "gabe" output. It doesn't provides a thrilling live atmosphere and the songs are not superior to the study versions

Personally I think the live versions are far superior!

I believe Trespass is amazing, the greatest improvement in Prog' history, from the weak FGTTR to the incredible Trespass.

White Mountain and the Knife alone well pay the album, if you add Visions of Angels and Stagnation, you got a strong album.

Iván

Snow Dog wrote: ^ not for me I'm afraid Ivan, I only rate The Knife as any good

Trespass for me is a good album, but I'm afraid Foxtrot and Selling are better. I also like A Trick of a Trail better than "Trespass"

I don't see the story of Genesis as simple as 5 - 4 - 3 men eras, Genesis has more eras and sounds:

1. The Beginnings: From Genesis to the Revelation: An album that could have been very good, because Jonathan King used their more commercial stuff in the search of a hit single, but even there you can notice Peter extraordinaire vocals (better than ever) and Tony's incredible piano performances. Thanks God they didn't succeed, because they could have stayed in that line if the album sold well.
2. Fast Evolution: Trespass is a dramatic change from their debut, dark haunting, absolutely atmospheric and full of intelligent lyrics, I always believed Anthony Phillips was a seudonym Steve Hackett used, because both have a very similar style.
3. The Peak: Genesis was absolutely unique only during Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot, they blended that darkness of Trespass with more elaborate music, tha atmospheres here are absolutely unique.
4. Softer Era: Tired of selling less albums than any Prog band, they decided to do a lyrical and more accessible album as SEBTP, not commercial in the strict sense of the word, but easier to swallow by the casual listener, I Know What I Like reached N° 17 in the British Charts.
5. Harder Era: The Lamb goes against natural evolution, is more complex than any previous album, some people believe Peter had already decided to leave due to the problems with  Tony Banks in the compositiopnal field and Phil Collins who hated his the trics, they wanted Peter oin the band but accepting their conditions and he said no way José, so Peter left his legacy in the history of Genesis with a conceptual  album made by him and for him, if you check the lyrics there are plenty references of this situation. The resy of the band accepted because they knew it was the last one.
6. Transitional Era: Peter was no more with them, so they didn't wanted to risk their small fan base, the band took the music inmediately after SEBTP (Including two tracks left aside from the SEBTP material) ignoring The Lamb. Collins tries to sound like Gabriel, Steve guitar is simpler than ever, they change the mystery for fairy ytales, an album even easier to be listened by a casual fan.
7. Return to the Roots: ATOTT was good, but they knew thay had lost identity so they tried to make an album closer to Foxtrot or Nursery Cryme, let Steve add a couple of songs and Mike one (which IMO is crap), great album but not in the level of the Genesis Peak.
8. The I don't give a sh!t era: That's a personal comment

So I stay with the Peak, but Trespass is also great, from SEBTP they started to lose identity (being great still), The Lamb is unique and the rest you already know, two good albumns and then they should change the name of the band.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: I don't see the story of Genesis as simple as 5 - 4 - 3 men eras, Genesis has more eras and sounds: The Beginnings: From Genesis to the Revelation: An album that could have been very good, because Jonathan King used their more commercial stuff in the search of a hit single, but even there you can notice Peter extraordinaire vocals (better than ever) and Tony's incredible piano performances. Thanks God they didn't succeed, because they could have stayed in that line if the album sold well. Fast Evolution: Trespass is a dramatic change from their debut, dark haunting, absolutely atmospheric and full of intelligent lyrics, I always believed Anthony Phillips was a seudonym Steve Hackett used, because both have a very similar style. The Peak: Genesis was absolutely unique only during Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot, they blended that darkness of Trespass with more elaborate music, tha atmospheres here are absolutely unique. Softer Era: Tired of selling less albums than any Prog band, they decided to do a lyrical and more accessible album as SEBTP, not commercial in the strict sense of the word, but easier to swallow by the casual listener, I Know What I Like reached N° 17 in the British Charts. Harder Era: The Lamb goes against natural evolution, is more complex than any previous album, some people believe Peter had already decided to leave due to the problems with  Tony Banks in the compositiopnal field and Phil Collins who hated his the trics, they wanted Peter oin the band but accepting their conditions and he said no way José, so Peter left his legacy in the history of Genesis with a conceptual  album made by him and for him, if you check the lyrics there are plenty references of this situation. The resy of the band accepted because they knew it was the last one. Transitional Era: Peter was no more with them, so they didn't wanted to risk their small fan base, the band took the music inmediately after SEBTP (Including two tracks left aside from the SEBTP material) ignoring The Lamb. Collins tries to sound like Gabriel, Steve guitar is simpler than ever, they change the mystery for fairy ytales, an album even easier to be listened by a casual fan. Return to the Roots: ATOTT was good, but they knew thay had lost identity so they tried to make an album closer to Foxtrot or Nursery Cryme, let Steve add a couple of songs and Mike one (which IMO is crap), great album but not in the level of the Genesis Peak. The I don't give a sh!t era: That's a personal comment So I stay with the Peak, but Trespass is also great, from SEBTP they started to lose identity (being great still), The Lamb is unique and the rest you already know, two good albumns and then they should change the name of the band. Iván

Well done, Ivan!!!!!

selling england is my favorite genesis album, but i'd choose trespass as my least fovorite gabriel-era release, if i had to.

but i realy don't want to

I haven't listened much to GENESIS after my teenages, but "Selling England by the Pound" was most boring to me. There's a hint of transition to Collins-era already, and the songs have silly emotinal changes. I remeber liked "Wind and Wuthering" little, some faint memories of the Gabriel era still there, and nice cover picture.

Their two fist albums please me most, "Trespass" being the best.

eriksalkeld wrote: TRESPASS is my least favorite album from Gabriel Era and I consider W&W as an outstanding, incredible work by them, right behind (very close) of Foxtrot (THE Genesis MASTERPIECE) and Nursery Cryme if it wasn't for My Own Special Way and some flaws throughout the album, but I think Eleventh Earl of Mar and SPECIALLY, ONE FOR THE VINE, are both between the finest music pieces done in all the 70's prog scene.

Yes, but are you sure that W & W is more solid than Trespass. Sure, Trespass really didn't have as many highlights as other Gabe Genesis albums, In my opinion, its one of the most solid ones.

Best with Gabriel: All are great, but "Foxtrot" I believe is the best. The whole essence of the band really came together and jelled here. "Selling England" is a close second. I would have said "Trespass" if Hackett and Collins were in the band. If they had been, it possibly could have stood by King Crimson's "Court" as a masterpiece because of the brilliant writing.

Worst with Gabriel excluding "Revelaton": "Nursery Cryme". Great wrting and great songs, but the recording quality and their musical chops weren't quite 100 % yet. The live versions and/or BBC verisons of the songs are much better.

Best with Collins: Without a doubt "Trick." The original Genesis prog ethos stayed intact. The writing is timeless and brilliant. They really had to try hard to succeed after Gabriel left, and they pulled it off brilliantly. Still one of my faves. Thanks especially to Steve.

Worst with Collins: Really cannot say. Last album ever bought was "Duke." And by then the real Genesis was history. Could not bring myself to spend money on their boring pop-music after hearing what they were capable of up through "Wind." Even hearing the silly pop trash on the radio made me cringe, and the dial was immediately turned.     

ivan_2068 wrote: I don't see the story of Genesis as simple as 5 - 4 - 3 men eras, Genesis has more eras and sounds: The Beginnings: From Genesis to the Revelation: An album that could have been very good, because Jonathan King used their more commercial stuff in the search of a hit single, but even there you can notice Peter extraordinaire vocals (better than ever) and Tony's incredible piano performances. Thanks God they didn't succeed, because they could have stayed in that line if the album sold well. Fast Evolution: Trespass is a dramatic change from their debut, dark haunting, absolutely atmospheric and full of intelligent lyrics, I always believed Anthony Phillips was a seudonym Steve Hackett used, because both have a very similar style. The Peak: Genesis was absolutely unique only during Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot, they blended that darkness of Trespass with more elaborate music, tha atmospheres here are absolutely unique. Softer Era: Tired of selling less albums than any Prog band, they decided to do a lyrical and more accessible album as SEBTP, not commercial in the strict sense of the word, but easier to swallow by the casual listener, I Know What I Like reached N° 17 in the British Charts. Harder Era: The Lamb goes against natural evolution, is more complex than any previous album, some people believe Peter had already decided to leave due to the problems with  Tony Banks in the compositiopnal field and Phil Collins who hated his the trics, they wanted Peter oin the band but accepting their conditions and he said no way José, so Peter left his legacy in the history of Genesis with a conceptual  album made by him and for him, if you check the lyrics there are plenty references of this situation. The resy of the band accepted because they knew it was the last one. Transitional Era: Peter was no more with them, so they didn't wanted to risk their small fan base, the band took the music inmediately after SEBTP (Including two tracks left aside from the SEBTP material) ignoring The Lamb. Collins tries to sound like Gabriel, Steve guitar is simpler than ever, they change the mystery for fairy ytales, an album even easier to be listened by a casual fan. Return to the Roots: ATOTT was good, but they knew thay had lost identity so they tried to make an album closer to Foxtrot or Nursery Cryme, let Steve add a couple of songs and Mike one (which IMO is crap), great album but not in the level of the Genesis Peak. The I don't give a sh!t era: That's a personal comment So I stay with the Peak, but Trespass is also great, from SEBTP they started to lose identity (being great still), The Lamb is unique and the rest you already know, two good albumns and then they should change the name of the band. Iván

Don't really agree with anything here!

Favorite Collins Era: ATotT barely edges W&W, but I like them all up to Abacab *ducks for cover*

Least Favorite PG Era: Easily Nursery Cryme.  Hogweed brings it down for me, and Steve doesn't have that signature sound yet, and he is rarely used at all with the exception of the Musical Box and keeping rythmn on the short songs.  In addition, Tony used that annoying organ sound which is watered down and lacks the punch that it was meant to have (this is what hurts songs like 'Get em Out by Friday' and '...Hogweed').  The band would get better with time though, Tony and Steve developing great teamwork/interplay, Peter's voice becomes much more versatile and melodic, and Phil and Mike are much improved.  The addition of synthisizers improved Genesis' overall sound by leaps and bounds.

Compare: Trick is way better than NC  (5 stars compared to 3 3/4)

This is my order of favorite Genesis albums (only 70's era to keep it simple)

• Selling England by the Pound (1973) - just because it is slower/softer doesn't mean it is commercial at all.  btw, I believe this is THE prog album, and the best rock album ever recorded by the best band etc, etc....
• A Trick of the Tail (1976) - very different to their original stuff, but just as good.  contains the "magic" sound and beautiful melodies, songwriting, and astounding musicianship and interplay.  Collins has a GREAT voice with LOTS of emotion.
• Wind and Wuthering (1976/77) - more developed than Trick, and contains those same elements...very solid 5 stars from myself.
• The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway (1974) - the groups magnum opus, the only problem....not a group effort, and Hackett (as always) is underused
• Foxtrot (1972) - Suppers Ready, and Can Utility are masterpieces, and the intro of Watcher is one of the greatest ever.
• Tresspass (1970) - very dark, more acoustic.  PG's vocals are excellent. He doesn't strain his voice so much on this one.  Ant Phillips is great on guitar, very underrated
• Nusery Cryme (1971) - very victorian sounding, but has several weak spots.  Musical Box, Seven Stones, and Fountain of Salmacis are three of the bands strongest tracks.  Harlequin is an excellent short song.
• And Then There Were Three (1978) - Hacketts gone, so is the "magic sound".  Still a good album though, Collins shines on vocals, and Tony is strong on keys.  Songwriting is still strong, but a slight drop off would come with the new decade.

So many strong albums, I think Genesis was/is the greates band ever. They overcame so many barries and departures and still made excellent music....the no. 8 album on my list still receives 3.5 stars from me.

For those who don't believe Peter hid messages against some Genesis members in The Lamb (Recieved one PM) here you have a quote:

Back in NY City: 1)Y ou're sitting in your comfort you don't believe I'm real, You cannot buy protection from the way that I feel. 2) Your progressive hypocrites hand out their trash, But it was mine in the first place, so I'll burn it to ash. 3) Who needs illusion of love and affection When you're out walking the streets with your mainline connection? connection.

First one to Collins who always criticized his theatrics saying they were unreal.

Second one seems to most of the band

Third one, whe announces he's going to leave Genesis because he doesn't agree with a softer new line Genesis wanted to take.

But I'm maybe wrong

Iván

^ HAHA. That's so goddamn nerdy. It's great.

Better question: At what point in time were Genesis stoned the most?

Better question: At what point in time were Genesis stoned the most?

Funny question, but strangely the lyricist Peter Gabriel only used drugs once, he ate some hash brownies and the effect was devastating so he never used any drug again.

Phil, Steve and Mike has admitted they used to smoke weed (There are some pictures of Phil) but I think Tony never liked drugs either, so the main composer and lyricist were always on their 5 senses.

Iván

You can find this at the Genesis Forum :

But Peter himself admits using it two times, the first one at the age of 17 and the second one is the accidental hash cake:

B.R. Adrenalin as a reaction to music... Do drugs have a relevance in that reaction? P.G. "Well, they've definitely helped ten thousand reggae musicians... But I personally don't use drugs, and I have had very limited experience of them. I think some people I know have been able to use them positively, although I know people who are not walking around on this planet any more because of them, and that's just such a waste. But for myself, I think I'm partly afraid of losing control; my dreams and so on seem to have enough power for me not to wish to unleash them any more. So that's one thing with hallucinatory drugs, and my experience with hash has been limited to just two experiences, really. One was when I was seventeen; I had a smoke, laid down on the floor and giggled a lot and then threw up. But last year, some of the crew had a hash-cake cooked up and no-one was in the house. So I crept in to my own kitchen and thought I would try some, and I ate quite a lot of this cake, and sat down with a pocket cassette recorder. I didn't really notice much difference, then began to feel a little drunk; and then I leant forward to look at my book and these two dashed of what felt like liquid mercury went up the back of my neck, and I crashed forward on to my forehead. I had a sudden panic, my heart began racing and I thought "Christ that's done it. I'm going to die." I began hallucinating badly and tried to go for a walk over the fields. All of this time, because I'd gone into this experiment, I still kept my hand cassette-recorder with me. So I had the traditional dollop of cosmic enlightenment, and you could hear me muttering about my revelation - time was "four video-tapes out of sync", and as I reached this tremendous conclusion, I fell in a ditch. And you hear me splattering about in this ditch, so the tape made good listening. But I was really panicking, and quite certain it was all over; and those were my two drug experiences. I think I was interested in acid, but afraid of it; and now I'm interested in similar areas, but from a non-chemical approach - like John Lilley." http://www.deltaforce.net/~jnu/pg/interviews/bristol.recorder - http://www.deltaforce.net/~jnu/pg/interviews/bristol.recorde r

Iván

Best Collins:  Trick, without a doubt.  No worse than a lot of Gabriel albums.  W&W has some weak points, and has nothing that equals the brilliance of Mad Man Moon or Dance on a Volcano, IMO.

Worst Gabriel (other than FGTR):  I may not have fessed up to this had a couple of people already done so:  Nursery Cryme is just that, a crime, to me.  After the first few times I listened to it, I still couldn't figure out what I didn't like about it.  I figured it out after listening to Genesis Live.  The songwriting is excellent as usual, but the album sounds like it was thrown together in a couple of hours.  That's a bit of an exaduration, I guess, but consider this:  Hogweed and Musical Box sounded better on a live album released in 1973.  The solos were much better, and (pathetically), so was the sound quality.  When I listen to these live versions I think about how much better the album would have been had it been as well recorded as Foxtrot (or Trespass for that matter).

Oh, and just because everyone else is doing it, I'm going to post the early Genesis albums in order from my favorite to my least favorite.

Lamb

Foxtrot

Selling England

Trick

W&W

Trespass

Cryme

ATTW3

FGTR

Fav Collins era: A trick of the tail

Least fav. Gabriel era: Trespass

Favorite post-Gabriel LP is Wind & Wuthering.....a return to prog form after the polish an poppy of ToT.  ToT IS a good record, but I just don't return to it that often.....too much fluff.

Least favorite Gabriel era album is the second LP of the Lamb....repetition of themes, a considerable drop in quality both compositionally and lyrically from the first LP.  Now, saying this is like saying my least favorite family member is my little brother....I love 'em all, but, when forced to choose one, I'd reluctantly list disc 2 of Lamb.

I guess I'm a Genesis fan 'cause, though there's a mega drop in quality after Wind, I think all their LPs are listenable until the obvious drivel of Invisible Touch....anything after that should be cordoned off and made unapproachable by law.

The Gabriel Genesis is flawless.

Collins Genesis is so flawed that I don't have a favorite lp from that era. There are some brilliant moments, but overall very spotty

least favorite Gabriel era-Selling England by the Pound

 Best Collins era-Wind and Wuthering or And then there were three

ivan: thx for the info

interesting that Foxtrot and the lamb are not still least favourite so far, nobody has mentioned that, if iam right...

Wow, Ivan, you have impressed me quite nicely.
It is good to see this analyses of the Genesis Era with all its emotions.

Secondly I could not agree less, that Trespass was the bridge with put Genesis into the progscene and made it the influencing progressive rock band as is has become.

  Trespass is the weakest. Foxtrot is the most consistently good ( one of only 3 albums that I rate as outstanding from start to finish the other two are Abbey Road and Hotel California ).The Lamb is the most astonishing album ever made imho.I love Nursey Crime and with SEBTP the good parts are extraordinary but some of it wasn't pitched too high ( as per Ivan's views).

 From the Collins era Wind and Wuthering, Duke and A trick of the Tail are all excellent possibly WAW ins the best.

 I think WAW is better than Trespass. I don't belong to the  Phil is the antiChrist society . WAW is a mature prog contribution.The pop Genesis made from Abacab onwards was better than other pop played on the radio but disappointing from the angle that Genesis were capable of much better. But still I defend their right to make the music they like.

yeah genesis has quality pop music, but 70-75 was absolute amazing, 100x better than abacab :)

Fave Collins = Trick of the Tail. A brilliant, bold album full of classic prog songs and wonderful atmospheres. A kick in the nuts, at the time, for any music journo writing a Genesis obituary in light of PG's departure!

Least fave Gabe era - Nursery Cryme. I cant put my finger on it. I know they were still learning their craft, and I like other versions of the songs on it - notably Hogweed, & Sal Marcis - but the album sounds 'scrappy' to me. They sound like poor musicians trying to punch above their height. I cant hold this against them, they had to learn somehow and somewhere, and I feel this album suffered a little for it. The music on Trespass was far less complex, but as an 'official' debut it's an enchanting album, full of all the best elements of the early Genesis formula.

To be honest, Gabriel era albums havn't aged very well, least of all Tresspass which insn't a very good album by any standards! I would say the first album is the worst followed by Tresspass.I've always found Genesis's studio output to be inconsistent, in fact by their own admission, they were always a live band, not a studio band.

Best Collin's era album is defineatlt WAW!

raindance wrote: To be honest, Gabriel era albums havn't aged very well, least of all Tresspass which insn't a very good album by any standards! I would say the first album is the worst followed by Tresspass.I've always found Genesis's studio output to be inconsistent, in fact by their own admission, they were always a live band, not a studio band. Best Collin's era album is defineatlt WAW!

I would agree that all the PG albums  - apart from SEBTP - have not aged well. For me, as a biased Genesis fan, , I would say those albums defined the glory age age of English prog

Tony Banks felt that SEBTP was the first album they actually played well on, I think it was Hacketts favourite too. They were young and still learning. I think much of that early material suffered through not having a good producer to work with. A good producer works with the band, closely to build on all their best aspects. He's not just there to twiddle knobs etc.

Blacksword wrote: Tony Banks felt that SEBTP was the first album they actually played well on, I think it was Hacketts favourite too. They were young and still learning. I think much of that early material suffered through not having a good producer to work with. A good producer works with the band, closely to build on all their best aspects. He's not just there to twiddle knobs etc.

Yeah, I can definately see that.  Especialy Tony.  He sounds great on Foxtrot, but when you listen to how "choppy" some of his organ work is when compared to the fluid synths on SEBTP, you realize to what extent they'd improved.  They got better still with Lamb, IMO.  

LEAST FAVE GABRIEL: Tresspass

FAVE COLLINS: Seconds out...studio:'Wind and wuthering'

I still think Trespass is very underrated, probably dooesn't have peaks of creativity like Musical Box or Supper's Ready (White Mountain is one of the most beautiful songs ever wrote by Genesis, so maybe I'm wrong), but is by large the most progressive and well balanced album, there's not a single bad and or poppy song, all the material is strong even when not outstanding. Plus the fact that Peter's voice sounds better than ever. 

Nursery Cryme has high and low points, I can't understand why the poppy For Absent Friends is in the same album with The Musical Box or Fountain of Salmacis, the rest of the songs are in the same level as any one from Trespass. Foxtrot is an exception and that's why it's the best IMO, all the tracks are strong plus Can Utility and Supper's Ready which are among the best.

SEBTP has two flaws I Know What I Like and the worst song from the Gabriel era More Fool Me. To end Gabriel's era The Lamb, well that thing  is from another planet, doesn't even sound like normal Genesis, don't misunderstand me is incredibly good but it has a different format (Conceptual, short tracks and a couple of fillers) than any Genesis album.

So why is Trespass so underrated?

Many people think in names, some say Hackett didn't played but Anthony Phillips is almost as good as him and with a very similar approach to dark atmospheres, others believe it's weaker because Collins wasn't there, but for God's sake, during Gabriel's era Phil was only the drummer, with almnost no input in the creativity section, OK he was an outstanding drummer, but Mayhew wasn't bad either.

I'm sure that if Anthony Phillips wouldn't had to leave the band because of his stage terror, Hackett would have never joined and Genesis would have been almost as great as with him, probably better in the compositional part because Anthony had a great iinfluence in Genesis music and Steve only proved what a great song writer he was when he left the band, but surely  a bit  weaker in the performance.

So take a listen to Trespass without prejudices and you'll find it's a very strong album. 

Iván

Titan wrote: Try to tell me your favourite album after Gabe´s departure. Try to tell your least favourite album in Gabe era. And now try to compare them, which do you prefer and why. And ONE IMPORTANT RULE: NOT From Genesis to revelation PLS :-) My favourite album after Gabe´s departure is Trick of the tail, but iam not able to say the worst Gabe´era, i love all of them, but you are maybe able to do that !

Funny enough, my choices are back to back. Trick is the best post-Gabriel album, Lamb is the worst Gabriel-era album, and even though I much prefer the Gabriel era, Trick is much better than Lamb.

ivan_2068 wrote:   I'm sure that if Anthony Phillips wouldn't had to leave the band because of his stage terror, Hackett would have never joined and Genesis would have been almost as great as with him, probably better in the compositional part because Anthony had a great iinfluence in Genesis music and Steve only proved what a great song writer he was when he left the band, but surely  a bit  weaker in the performance.   Iván

The main thing that always frustrates me about 70's Genesis is that Hackett was sooo badly underused, and the other guys never let him contribute in the writing department.  Out of the entire era with Hackett, I've only seen two tracks that give Hackett lead writing credits (After the Ordeal, and Horizons:  both of them are insturmentals)  the former of which Tony Banks didn't even wan't to include on SEbtP.  When Steve finally does get the chance, he is amazing, IMHO he had the very best sound from his guitar, a very hight pitch sounding almost like a synth at times (similar to Brian May from Queen). 

But the bottom line is that Genesis would have been much better if Steve Hackett would have taken a more prominint role in composing.

The main thing that always frustrates me about 70's Genesis is that Hackett was sooo badly underused, and the other guys never let him contribute in the writing department.  Out of the entire era with Hackett, I've only seen two tracks that give Hackett lead writing credits (After the Ordeal, and Horizons:  both of them are insturmentals)  the former of which Tony Banks didn't even wan't to include on SEbtP.  When Steve finally does get the chance, he is amazing, IMHO he had the very best sound from his guitar, a very hight pitch sounding almost like a synth at times (similar to Brian May from Queen).

That's the main and only problem especially when Gabriel left, because Tony alone was not able to do all the Job, from the beginning to The Lamb, the compositional role was shared by Tony and Peter, so there was no real need for another songwritter, except during FGTTR and Trespass where Anthony Phillips had very much influence mostly for the close friendship between Peter, Ant and Tony.

When Peter left Steve should have taken his role with Tony, but at that point Rutherford also wanted some more participation and it was a chaotic situation.

Steve had proven in 1975 with Voyage of the Acolyte that he was able to help Tony, but the rest of the band didn't wanted, so he was leftaside. Steve has said that he took various projects to Genesis but Rutherford and Collins voted no, so he used this songs in his first albums.

Iván

Well, we know what the Jackson Tapes are exactly:

- Provocation includes a theme from Fountain of Salmacis plus much of what ended up in Looking For Someone (Ant remembers that the end of Looking For Someone as we know it from the version on Trespass developed here).      - Frustration is an early version of Anyway from The Lamb but with totally different lyrics.      - Manipulation is a version of F Sharp that we now know from Ant's Archive Collection (and is an early version of what became ‘Musical Box’) although this is more fully arranged with Tony Banks adding an organ part to Ant & Mike's 12-strings.      - Resignation includes parts of a track from that period called Peace which Genesis never used anywhere else.

Soon availlable after Tony winning the case against the illegal holder of the original tape.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: The main thing that always frustrates me about 70's Genesis is that Hackett was sooo badly underused, and the other guys never let him contribute in the writing department.  Out of the entire era with Hackett, I've only seen two tracks that give Hackett lead writing credits (After the Ordeal, and Horizons:  both of them are insturmentals)  the former of which Tony Banks didn't even wan't to include on SEbtP.  When Steve finally does get the chance, he is amazing, IMHO he had the very best sound from his guitar, a very hight pitch sounding almost like a synth at times (similar to Brian May from Queen).  That's the main and only problem especially when Gabriel left, because Tony alone was not able to do all the Job, from the beginning to The Lamb, the compositional role was shared by Tony and Peter, so there was no real need for another songwritter, except during FGTTR and Trespass where Anthony Phillips had very much influence mostly for the close friendship between Peter, Ant and Tony. When Peter left Steve should have taken his role with Tony, but at that point Rutherford also wanted some more participation and it was a chaotic situation. Steve had proven in 1975 with Voyage of the Acolyte that he was able to help Tony, but the rest of the band didn't wanted, so he was leftaside. Steve has said that he took various projects to Genesis but Rutherford and Collins voted no, so he used this songs in his first albums. Iván

I've always been curious as to why Mike and Phil (and even Tony) pushed Steve aside.  His solo work was incredible, (I'd love to see what Please Don't Touch, Spectral Mornings and Defector would sound like with some of the group's input).  Was the reason for this becuase the other guys wanted the attention to themselves, or they just didn't like Steve's style?  I've noticed that the songs which Banks writes most of have very little noticealbe guitar in them.  So maybe the rest of the band didn't like a guitar sound.  I've heard that a big reason why Steve left the band was because he wrote the song 'Please Don't Touch' and Phil completely rejected it for Wind and Wuthering, so this was the last straw.

btw, I know that Mad Man Moon and the title track from A Trick of the Tail were written with Gabriel (for the SEbtP sessions).  I'm curious if there were ever any recordings of these maybe on the cutting room floor, that might come up some day (or even be around already) along with those Jackson tapes.   Any insight?

Fearless wrote:

I've heard that a big reason why Steve left the band was because he wrote the song 'Please Don't Touch' and Phil completely rejected it for Wind and Wuthering, so this was the last straw.

Not only that Fearless, the relation Steve Hackett - Genesis was not good after A Trick, and the rest of the band is obvious in that. If you have the In Concert DVD (A 1 hour film of the 4 men Genesis + Bruford) you can notice that Bill and Steve are practically ignored by the camera, in the case of Phil I understand because Phil still played a lot of drums and we know his ego is huge but in the case of Steve there was no reason at all.

It was almost as three close friends and two strangers

Steve said that he took a lot of stuff to the band and they sistematically rejected everything he took, in the case of Please Don't Touch it almost reached W&W but Tony insisted that it had to be replaced for Wot Gorilla? but that wasn't the only song as Steve said in a 2001 interview:

I was really edging away from the group at that point. I was getting tired of bringing ideas into the group which I felt they weren't going to do. If the ideas were more radical, they weren't necessarily going to do them. I felt that the band was heading towards an area that was becoming very safe.  http://www.worldofgenesis.com/SteveHackettInterview2001.htm - http://www.worldofgenesis.com/SteveHackettInterview2001.htm

So Steve got tired and one day he told Tony OK man I'm out.

Iván

I was really edging away from the group at that point. I was getting tired of bringing ideas into the group which I felt they weren't going to do. If the ideas were more radical, they weren't necessarily going to do them. I felt that the band was heading towards an area that was becoming very safe.  http://www.worldofgenesis.com/SteveHackettInterview2001.htm - http://www.worldofgenesis.com/SteveHackettInterview2001.htm

He was quite right.

ivan_2068 wrote: Fearless wrote:   I've heard that a big reason why Steve left the band was because he wrote the song 'Please Don't Touch' and Phil completely rejected it for Wind and Wuthering, so this was the last straw. Not only that Fearless, the relation Steve Hackett - Genesis was not good after A Trick, and the rest of the band is obvious in that. If you have the In Concert DVD (A 1 hour film of the 4 men Genesis + Bruford) you can notice that Bill and Steve are practically ignored by the camera, in the case of Phil I understand because Phil still played a lot of drums and we know his ego is huge but in the case of Steve there was no reason at all. It was almost as three close friends and two strangers Steve said that he took a lot of stuff to the band and they sistematically rejected everything he took, in the case of Please Don't Touch it almost reached W&W but Tony insisted that it had to be replaced for Wot Gorilla? but that wasn't the only song as Steve said in a 2001 interview: I was really edging away from the group at that point. I was getting tired of bringing ideas into the group which I felt they weren't going to do. If the ideas were more radical, they weren't necessarily going to do them. I felt that the band was heading towards an area that was becoming very safe.  http://www.worldofgenesis.com/SteveHackettInterview2001.htm - http://www.worldofgenesis.com/SteveHackettInterview2001.htm   So Steve got tired and one day he told Tony OK man I'm out. Iván

That's a very interesting interview.  Thanks a lot for the info, Ivan.

Back to the original question:

Weakest Gabriel album: TRESPASS. Sometimes I think that Lamb Lies isn't so great like everybody talks...

The best Collins album: WIND AND WUTHERING. ATOTT is almost so good like...

And W&W is much better than Trespass and Lamb Lies...

Worst Gabriel era album (not counting FGTR)...Nursery Cryme - I know this get's a lot of praise from Genesis fans, but in my opinion the album was too uneven after the loss of their primary songwriter, Ant Phillips.  A transitional album, before Gabriel and Banks truly found their voice,  that had some great songs but was just not as consistently good as their earlier masterpiece Trespass, and their later gems. 

Favorite Collins era album...A Trick of the Tail.  In my opinion, ATTOT is a much better album than NC.  Some of the songs on NC are better than anything on ATTOT, but Trick is much more consistent and holds the listener from beginning to end.

herbie53 wrote: Back to the original question: Weakest Gabriel album: TRESPASS. Sometimes I think that Lamb Lies isn't so great like everybody talks... The best Collins album: WIND AND WUTHERING. ATOTT is almost so good like... And W&W is much better than Trespass and Lamb Lies...

I agree totally & The Lamb is so hyped up by fans sheer devotion to the band that it makes them blinkered. The Lamb is not a great album!!!

Ricochet wrote: Not greater that Foxtrot or Trespass,but it is a very good album.

At least the first side is!!!

I agree with 3 people on 3 things:

Blacksword on Trick of the Tail... my fave post-gabe genesis album (well, if live albums don't count. Otherwise I may think between this and Seconds Out...)

JCPRog on The Lamb. It has great moments for sure, but I sometimes find it even duller than FGtR...

And Ivan on Trespass. I really don't understand why that album is so underrated... It is a great emergence of a great prog band. Does it need to include an epic, or an epic-like track??? This could even be my all time Genesis fave if it wasn't for Foxtrot...