Is Japan any more prog-related than say The Cure?
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Forum Name: Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
Forum Description: Discuss bands and albums classified as Proto-Prog and Prog-Related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=99194
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Topic: Is Japan any more prog-related than say The Cure?
Posted By: BarryGlibb
Subject: Is Japan any more prog-related than say The Cure?
Date Posted: August 04 2014 at 05:38
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Just wondering how Japan have been designated prog-related on the PA site and The Cure, Simple Minds and Big Country and a number of similar bands have not. Can't see how their music is anything more prog-related than those mentioned above. Is it only because David Sylvian later collaborated with Fripp? Discuss.
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Replies:
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: August 04 2014 at 06:17
| Japan is not prog-related at all, it's a 100% English New Wave, but that Japan's music was / is miles above more interesting New Wave for the proggers' ears than the others you mentioned above (imo). |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: August 04 2014 at 06:22
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Well I suppose its cos David played with Fripp and Barbieri with Porcupine Tree. and much of their output could be described as prog. Certainly not pop. But I never know what Prog is anyway. ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: August 04 2014 at 06:31
Sylvian solo output is prog-related but Japan is not imo. |
akamaisondufromage wrote:Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: August 04 2014 at 06:34
I meant post- Japan output in various forms. ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: August 04 2014 at 06:45
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------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: August 04 2014 at 07:32
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David Sylvian (solo) has been deemed a Crossover Prog artist on this site, and Japan provided the necessary seeds for this subsequent path - thus, Japan is related to prog. Not prog itself, but prog-related. The Cure have no such connections, thus they are not deemed prog-related. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: August 04 2014 at 08:36
I swear that I didn't know that Mr Sylvian is already in PA' Crossover prog section! That's great actually. |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: August 04 2014 at 08:55
Porl Thompson played with Page and Plant 
------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: August 04 2014 at 09:12
Have you listened to Tin Drum? Japan are not "100% English new wave".
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: August 04 2014 at 09:20
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: August 04 2014 at 12:43
Of course, but that appears to relate to the text after the comma, rather than the statement I commented on. If anything Japan initially belonged to the Duran Duran "New Romantic" school (The song Quiet Life is reminiscent of that style).
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Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: August 04 2014 at 13:24
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The Church are also included here as a Crossover Artist. I don't mind Kilby and his cohorts but never did strike me as anything to do with Prog. Japan at least were amazing, with subtle Prog-isms.
Big Country are miles away from The Cure. The Cure do have excellent tunes, but man that Robert Smith has a voice that sh*ts me. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: August 04 2014 at 22:38
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: August 20 2014 at 06:41
One aspect of progressing rock is eschewing the blues. BOC were one of the first hard rock bands to do so. (as well as Scorpions, Purple, Sabbath, Rainbow, Gillan, UFO before Judas Priest got the credit for doing what others did first - largely because no one had noticed Priest leaving the blues long before anyone had noticed they had ...). Zeppelin eventually used blues in some numbers the way some pop groups employ rock ideas. It's not just long songs - but what a band does with harmonies and rhythms. Most prog rock is about orchestrations and very in depth (and more correctly applied musical rules) than basic rock and obviously - formally structured numbers. By which I mean a 32 bar jazz ballad (Cole Porter) or a 12 bar blues (Howlin' Wolf) are not prog rock (obviously) but still well structured music. How Genesis apply the disciplines of styles is what puts them in the forever interesting category, well for me any way, and the others... Prog rock is all about employing classical ideas to a rock base. Yes there are variations but this is the primary goal from the start. |
Posted By: thwok
Date Posted: September 20 2014 at 08:31
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I've been saying for a long time that The Cure is at the very least a prog-related band that deserves to be on ProgArchives. Thank you to BarryGlibb for being on the same page! . If Muse is here, in many ways a similar band, why isn't The Cure? Robert Smith's music has definitely progressed over time, and incorporates a lot of different elements. It's also so intelligently written and creatively arranged that I think Smith should get props. My suggestion for inclusion would be the albums Pornography or The Top. ------------- I am the funkiest man on the planet! |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: September 20 2014 at 09:47
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Bauhaus is more prog than The Cure! And what about Fields of the Nephilim? They had long songs with different sections and keyboards, they're definteily symphonic prog IMHO. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 20 2014 at 09:56
Also The Cult for post metal. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: AreYouHuman
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 00:17
Me three.  ------------- Caption: We tend to take ourselves a little too seriously. Silly human race! Yes is for everybody! |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 00:59
As a prog bass fetishist, I can state without any doubt that Mick Karn was the most progressive bass player ever. He played in such a forward/upfront way that few if any could or would want to imitate....Just youtube his name and you will be stunned....His non- inclusion on PA is a major slight. 
------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: October 08 2014 at 17:30
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"3) Members of important progressive rock bands - Although most of the recorded solo output of artists like Greg Lake and David Gilmour falls more in a mainstream rock style, their contributions to progressive rock in their respective bands insures them a place in our prog-related genre. " David Sylvian and Richard Barbieri were in the band,this enough merits inclusion under Prog-Related.
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Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 02:59
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It's probably because Sylvian worked with Fripp, and Barbieri joined PT ------------- Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while... |
Posted By: thwok
Date Posted: May 27 2016 at 09:06
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Whether or not a band's individual members release prog music, on their own time, shouldn't determine whether a band is included in the Archives. ------------- I am the funkiest man on the planet! |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: May 27 2016 at 09:20
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They were included because of their music, not because their members were/are involved with prog bands. Actually, they were first added in Crossover, before I was pressured into moving them to PR. As to why they're here, I'd suggest listening to their music before dismissing them because of their association with New Wave (whatever that means). My personal opinion is that a lot of bands tagged as New Wave were way more interesting/progressive than a lot of the stuff included here, but I am also against flogging dead horses. |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: May 27 2016 at 10:42
| I say every musician is prog related. We all breathe the same air as Fripp, Wilson, Gilmour. We all share similar DNA therefore everyone is prog related. I expect to see Justin Bieber here soon |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: May 27 2016 at 12:04
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Let's turn this on it's head: had Japan been suggested for prog related today I'm fairly certain they would've been turned down. The only artists to get into PR these days are the ones who have made their mark on prog rock or similarly influenced it on a large scale. PA was a very "lose" place back when bands like Japan, Mercury Rev and the likes were included, and we subsequently ended up with a lot of bands that shouldn't be here. Seeing as Max (the site owner) is the only one who can delete artists from the site, we are most likely going to see more of these threads 'Hey man! How come Mercury Rev and Metallica are here when Megadeath and The Tubes aren't?!?!???' Best answer is: why start including bands because of mistakes that were made in the past? The Cure were and are a wonderful and at times experimental post punk/new wave group, but including them because an act like Japan is here, makes no sense to me. I love both btw and could quite frankly live without Japan on PA (Iwould even prefer it - as it evidently sends the wrong message). ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: May 27 2016 at 14:16
Exactly, Raff! In my opinion, artists like John Foxx, older Ultravox and Magazine are definitely proggy tinged but are not even mentioned. In fact , Foxx's music is futuristic even though much of it was created in the late 70s , early 80s. I have seen them in concert as well as Sylvian and I can guarantee that this is no rock n roll! Mick Karn is a brilliant technician who did as much for the bass guitar than Squire or Entwhistle but without a peep from anyone ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: May 27 2016 at 15:00
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Mick Karn was a bass genius. I just need to think of him and bam his tone, sound and feel immediately emanates from back in my skull. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: May 27 2016 at 15:13
Well, that was a peep from someone !!! Sons of Pioneers is just what does that to me = Bam! ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: HosiannaMantra
Date Posted: September 15 2016 at 17:04
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Well, my guess is that Japan were quite more progressive than the Cure, both by having more indicated prog influences (Rob Dean's Fripp-esque solos, some keyboard parts), and incorporating astonishing inventive playing techniques (Mick Karn's bass, and also Steve Jansen's drumming) that were quite progressive. Also, "Quiet Life" preceeded and actually most of the similarly fashioned new wave records, so they weren't really copying anyone at that point of their career, and IMHO they succeeded in escaping the new wave wagon sonically with "Tin Drum". Yes, their image and some lyrics (mostly on first two clumsy glam albums that also hid some interesting and imaginative moments) aren't really digestible for a casual prog rocker, and even some band members, but I'd say they were quite progressive for late 70s/early 80s Brittish band. I like some albums of the Cure, they were also inventive, atmospheric, and imaginative at some points of their career, but overall their playing is more simplistic, and they had much more derivative pop/rock songs than Japan. And, as somebody already mentioned, I think Mick Karn (with and without Jansen & Barbieri) should be included on PA, his solo albums went further more into some uncategorizable territory between prog, fusion and new age without all that cheese that ruined Japan for many.
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: September 16 2016 at 03:38
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Japan were a new romantic band, and with ma number of those bands they were quite progressive in their approach to making music. In that regard everyone from OMD to the Human League were "prog related" All of these bands grew up listening to Kraftwerk, Amon Duul, Can, Tangerine Dream etc and were just applying electronic music principles in a pop framework. That said, Japan were a cut above the rest in terms of musicianship IMO. The Tin Drum album is also completely unique. Their Porcupine Tree connections aside, Jensen and Barbeiri released a string of rather progressive and thought provoking albums in the 90's (available by mail order only at the time) which I would classify as actual progressive rock. There were multiple projects involving the likes of Fripp in various combos with Japan members, so overall I think Japan have earned a prog related tag. The Cure, although inventive and an excellent band are closer to post punk, new wave, goth etc than prog rock. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |