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Topic: 12 Tone Serial Music ComposersPosted By: The.Crimson.King
Subject: 12 Tone Serial Music Composers
Date Posted: October 28 2013 at 13:44
Anyone out there into composing 12 tone serial music a la Arnold Schoenberg? I did a few pieces about 10 years ago and am just getting into it again and would like to compare notes with other composers
------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987
Replies: Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: October 28 2013 at 13:56
Compare notes? Which 12 did you use?
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It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.
-Kehlog Albran
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: October 28 2013 at 13:57
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 28 2013 at 14:08
I have done a few 12-tone serial pieces (prime, retrograde, inversion and retrograde-inversion) but cannot for the life of me remember which particular tunes they were.
I have a piece on LastFM that is jokily called A Toe Nail Poem http://www.last.fm/music/The+Cacophony+Of+Light/Stateless/A+Toe+Nail+Poem" rel="nofollow - (www.last.fm/music/The+Cacophony+Of+Light/Stateless/A+Toe+Nail+Poem ) but it isn't serialism, it just uses all 12 notes of the chromatic scale with no regard to keys and scales.
------------- What?
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: October 28 2013 at 14:35
HolyMoly wrote:
Compare notes? Which 12 did you use?
All of them of course
------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: October 28 2013 at 16:06
The.Crimson.King wrote:
HolyMoly wrote:
Compare notes? Which 12 did you use?
All of them of course
Music note joke.
So in 12 tone serialism you have to use all of them in any order without repeating any? Do you not repeat any within the single melody or over any set of 12 notes played? This concept confused me. Haha
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 28 2013 at 17:02
The row is a specific ordering of all twelve notes of the chromatic scale (without regard to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octave" rel="nofollow - octave placement).
No note is repeated within the row.
The row may be subjected to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_%28music%29" rel="nofollow - interval -preserving http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformation_%28music%29" rel="nofollow - transformations -- that is, it may appear in inversion (denoted I), retrograde (R), or retrograde-inversion (RI), in addition to its "original" or prime form (P).
The row in any of its four transformations may begin on any degree of the chromatic scale; in other words it may be freely http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposition_%28music%29" rel="nofollow - transposed . (Transposition being an interval-preserving transformation, this is technically covered already by 3.) Transpositions are indicated by an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integer" rel="nofollow - integer between 0 and 11 denoting the number of semitones: thus, if the original form of the row is denoted P0, then P1 denotes its transposition upward by one semitone (similarly I1 is an upward transposition of the inverted form, R1 of the retrograde form, and RI1 of the retrograde-inverted form).
...or so says Wikipedia
------------- What?
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: October 28 2013 at 17:36
Berg, Webern and some later Scriabin
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."
Arnold Schoenberg
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: October 28 2013 at 18:06
Once you create your original tone row, generating the 12 x 12 tone row matrix takes awhile and is pretty easy to mess up. I found a great tool that builds the matrix for you and even prints it out
Also, I've stumbled across "The Arnold Schoenberg Center" which is a website that allows you to hear the master's complete works for free. It also gives cool info about each piece like composition date and first performance date.
------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: October 28 2013 at 19:07
I've discovered in my research that there appears to be 2 approaches at play here. Serial music v 12 tone music.
Serial music is highly structured and can include not only tone rows that control the pitch, but also the dynamics and even the length of each note (whole/1/2,1/4,1/8,etc). This approach seeks to take nearly all decision making process away from the composer except definition of the tone row and choice of which row to use. This appears to be much more extreme than Schoenberg's approach which is more closely identified as 12 tone music and is considered a subgenre of serial music.
In Schoenberg's 12 tone approach, you still define the 12 note row and create the matrix but you may repeat a note. You may also repeat the current note with the previous note (essentially a "trill"). You can also define a subseries of notes as a motivic element and repeat that. It seems Schoenberg's focus was to get composers to stop relying on the harmonic conventions they learned in school and have heard all their lives and think outside the box. Way outside the box! Not unlike Robert Fripp's Guitar Craft courses where students were confronted with learning Fripp's "new standard tuning" so they couldn't rely on past patterns and familiar licks.
I found this fascinating quote from "The Daily Beethoven" blog:
Finally - and this is probably the MOST IMPORTANT rule about 12-tone composition:
THERE ARE NO RULES.
What I mean is that 12-tone is a tool used to break free from traditional harmony of the 19th century and if at any time one decides that it would be nice to have that first note repeated at the end of the phrase - it's perfectly fine. The 12-tone system is more like a "recipe" kind of rule. It's a good way to get some new flavors but if you want to substitute lemon juice for vinegar it's OK, you can still call it salad dressing. Schoenberg himself broke the 12-tone rule all the time. Once, when someone wrote to him pointing out that the had repeated a note within his tone row, Schoenberg basically told him that his music was to be listened to, not studied.
"My works are twelve-tone compositions, not twelve-tone compositions." (Schoenberg letter to annoying nit-picking fan)
I'd also highly recommend anyone curious who wants to learn more to check out this fantastic video from Vi Hart - the youtube MatheMusician...Fun Fun Fun
------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: October 28 2013 at 20:04
Give me a period of time and I'll be able to come back with it. I think I need to think about it on a piano level instead of guitar so I need to buy a keyboard real quick.
Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: October 29 2013 at 00:55
Why have rules?
Ron Jarzombek composes the Blotted Science stuff in 12 tone, I think.
------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 29 2013 at 02:35
irrelevant wrote:
Why have rules?
It is a technique rather than just a set of rules just like Dogme 95 film-making - without the rules it wouldn't be Dogme 95 it would just be film-making - so 12-tone serialism without the rules would be 12-tone atonal music or chromatic music or non-12-tone serialism or just serialism. That said, rules are made to be broken and Schoenberg broke them all the time, however to be "serialism" 12-tones (or any other series of notes) have to be used to create a row or series that is then transformed - this was intended to prevent any single note or sequence from dominating the piece and to challenge the traditional thinking on melody and harmony.
It's a fun technique that makes you think about composition in a different way but if you don't like the rules, don't use them/
------------- What?
Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: October 29 2013 at 04:17
Dean wrote:
irrelevant wrote:
Why have rules?
It is a technique rather than just a set of rules just like Dogme 95 film-making - without the rules it wouldn't be Dogme 95 it would just be film-making - so 12-tone serialism without the rules would be 12-tone atonal music or chromatic music or non-12-tone serialism or just serialism. That said, rules are made to be broken and Schoenberg broke them all the time, however to be "serialism" 12-tones (or any other series of notes) have to be used to create a row or series that is then transformed - this was intended to prevent any single note or sequence from dominating the piece and to challenge the traditional thinking on melody and harmony.
It's a fun technique that makes you think about composition in a different way but if you don't like the rules, don't use them/
It's interesting, no doubt. I've looked up some info on it in the past. I personally would prefer to compose without that technique, that's all.
------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 29 2013 at 07:06
irrelevant wrote:
Dean wrote:
irrelevant wrote:
Why have rules?
It is a technique rather than just a set of rules just like Dogme 95 film-making - without the rules it wouldn't be Dogme 95 it would just be film-making - so 12-tone serialism without the rules would be 12-tone atonal music or chromatic music or non-12-tone serialism or just serialism. That said, rules are made to be broken and Schoenberg broke them all the time, however to be "serialism" 12-tones (or any other series of notes) have to be used to create a row or series that is then transformed - this was intended to prevent any single note or sequence from dominating the piece and to challenge the traditional thinking on melody and harmony.
It's a fun technique that makes you think about composition in a different way but if you don't like the rules, don't use them/
It's interesting, no doubt. I've looked up some info on it in the past. I personally would prefer to compose without that technique, that's all.
I know your user name is "irrelevant" but I now wonder what you are doing in this thread if it is not to troll.
------------- What?
Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: October 29 2013 at 07:19
Dean wrote:
irrelevant wrote:
Dean wrote:
irrelevant wrote:
Why have rules?
It is a technique rather than just a set of rules just like Dogme 95 film-making - without the rules it wouldn't be Dogme 95 it would just be film-making - so 12-tone serialism without the rules would be 12-tone atonal music or chromatic music or non-12-tone serialism or just serialism. That said, rules are made to be broken and Schoenberg broke them all the time, however to be "serialism" 12-tones (or any other series of notes) have to be used to create a row or series that is then transformed - this was intended to prevent any single note or sequence from dominating the piece and to challenge the traditional thinking on melody and harmony.
It's a fun technique that makes you think about composition in a different way but if you don't like the rules, don't use them/
It's interesting, no doubt. I've looked up some info on it in the past. I personally would prefer to compose without that technique, that's all.
I know your user name is "irrelevant" but I now wonder what you are doing in this thread if it is not to troll.
Can't I sum up my thoughts at under a paragraph? I just wanted to say that the compositional technique is not one I'm a fan of. A bit useless to the thread, I know, but I make up for it with the mentioning of Blotted Science (12 tone instrumental prog death metal).
------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: October 29 2013 at 09:42
irrelevant wrote:
Dean wrote:
irrelevant wrote:
Dean wrote:
irrelevant wrote:
Why have rules?
It is a technique rather than just a set of rules just like Dogme 95 film-making - without the rules it wouldn't be Dogme 95 it would just be film-making - so 12-tone serialism without the rules would be 12-tone atonal music or chromatic music or non-12-tone serialism or just serialism. That said, rules are made to be broken and Schoenberg broke them all the time, however to be "serialism" 12-tones (or any other series of notes) have to be used to create a row or series that is then transformed - this was intended to prevent any single note or sequence from dominating the piece and to challenge the traditional thinking on melody and harmony.
It's a fun technique that makes you think about composition in a different way but if you don't like the rules, don't use them/
It's interesting, no doubt. I've looked up some info on it in the past. I personally would prefer to compose without that technique, that's all.
I know your user name is "irrelevant" but I now wonder what you are doing in this thread if it is not to troll.
Can't I sum up my thoughts at under a paragraph? I just wanted to say that the compositional technique is not one I'm a fan of. A bit useless to the thread, I know, but I make up for it with the mentioning of Blotted Science (12 tone instrumental prog death metal).
"Why have rules."
I might add that all rules are in art are a way of understanding music logically. You can't understand music without limiting yourself. Limiting yourself creates parameters to work without, and if those parameters were not there then you'd be confused by the infinite number of options. I don't know whether you compose music or not, but if you do then you abide by rules, even if you don't know about it. I hear a lot of folk say "If it sounds good then it sounds good." Well, it sounding good is a rule. Also, rules derive from what sounds good or not.
Regarding serialism, it relies heavily on logic and structure. It's mathematical. Shoenberg actually said it was LESS free than tonal music, and the reason being that serialism doesn't have a tonic reference point. In its place you have to create structure out of the atonalism, which is where Arnold's techniques come in. Rhythm also plays a major part in this.
They aren't "rules", because... well, you can do what the hell you like. Whether it's good or not however depends on the presence of logical structure.
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."
Arnold Schoenberg
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: October 29 2013 at 11:57
irrelevant wrote:
Can't I sum up my thoughts at under a paragraph? I just wanted to say that the compositional technique is not one I'm a fan of. A bit useless to the thread, I know, but I make up for it with the mentioning of Blotted Science (12 tone instrumental prog death metal).
I've never heard of Blotted Science before but your description of "12 tone instrumental prog death metal" was irresistible. Just checked this out and was blown away...it's clearly not serial music (and doesn't follow the highly structured rules) but definitely sounds 12 tone to my ears. And the video is HP Lovecraft's worst nightmare...and just in time for Halloween.
Thanks irrelevant, you made my day
------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987
Posted By: refugee
Date Posted: October 29 2013 at 15:17
In the last part I used a twelvetone row played forward and backwards so the two rows together form one symmetrical row of 24 notes. Then I generated nine new rows, using a special system I designed myself. The eleventh row, played towards the end together with some other, unrelated musical material – mainly to prevent the piece from dying out with only one instrument playing – is identical to the first.
I’m not sure if it qualifies as serial music, but it’s pretty close.
------------- He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
(Peter Hammill)
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: October 29 2013 at 15:20
The Pessimist wrote:
irrelevant wrote:
Dean wrote:
irrelevant wrote:
Dean wrote:
irrelevant wrote:
Why have rules?
It is a technique rather than just a set of rules just like Dogme 95 film-making - without the rules it wouldn't be Dogme 95 it would just be film-making - so 12-tone serialism without the rules would be 12-tone atonal music or chromatic music or non-12-tone serialism or just serialism. That said, rules are made to be broken and Schoenberg broke them all the time, however to be "serialism" 12-tones (or any other series of notes) have to be used to create a row or series that is then transformed - this was intended to prevent any single note or sequence from dominating the piece and to challenge the traditional thinking on melody and harmony.
It's a fun technique that makes you think about composition in a different way but if you don't like the rules, don't use them/
It's interesting, no doubt. I've looked up some info on it in the past. I personally would prefer to compose without that technique, that's all.
I know your user name is "irrelevant" but I now wonder what you are doing in this thread if it is not to troll.
Can't I sum up my thoughts at under a paragraph? I just wanted to say that the compositional technique is not one I'm a fan of. A bit useless to the thread, I know, but I make up for it with the mentioning of Blotted Science (12 tone instrumental prog death metal).
"Why have rules."
I might add that all rules are in art are a way of understanding music logically. You can't understand music without limiting yourself. Limiting yourself creates parameters to work without, and if those parameters were not there then you'd be confused by the infinite number of options. I don't know whether you compose music or not, but if you do then you abide by rules, even if you don't know about it. I hear a lot of folk say "If it sounds good then it sounds good." Well, it sounding good is a rule. Also, rules derive from what sounds good or not.
Regarding serialism, it relies heavily on logic and structure. It's mathematical. Shoenberg actually said it was LESS free than tonal music, and the reason being that serialism doesn't have a tonic reference point. In its place you have to create structure out of the atonalism, which is where Arnold's techniques come in. Rhythm also plays a major part in this.
They aren't "rules", because... well, you can do what the hell you like. Whether it's good or not however depends on the presence of logical structure.
If I may, I'd like to add that if there are not conscious limits within which you work, you still have subconscious limits: the limits of what you're familiar with, what you know how to play, etc. For us guitarists, that mostly consists of the pentatonic scale.
That's why have rules.
Of course, it doesn't have to be those rules specifically or even rules related to the acknowledged parameters of the music itself, but rules are always present, so you might as well devise ones that can, with the right amount of craft, yield works as moving as Schoenberg's, Webern's, or Berg's.
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: October 29 2013 at 16:40
In the last part I used a twelvetone row played forward and backwards so the two rows together form one symmetrical row of 24 notes. Then I generated nine new rows, using a special system I designed myself. The eleventh row, played towards the end together with some other, unrelated musical material – mainly to prevent the piece from dying out with only one instrument playing – is identical to the first.
I’m not sure if it qualifies as serial music, but it’s pretty close.
Thanks refugee, I've listened a few times and really like it. The structure you created for the ending brings up a good point. Schoenberg's original description of this approach was "Method of composing with 12 tones which are only related to one another". The strict rules that define serialism came later - possibly by one of his students? Anyway, it always seemed to me that a fun approach would be to limit a 12 tone composition to a small set of tone rows rather than grabbing several of the matrix. Why? Because by limiting yourself to a few rows, you then give some kind of harmonic framework for the piece. Not as highly structured as composing a mostly diatonic piece in a specific key, but a repeating framework made up of certain intervals appearing in the tone row nonetheless. Theoretically, the ear should begin to connect the dots of these oft appearing intervals...theoretically anyway!
And even if your piece doesn't strictly qualify as serial music, you're in good company as Schoenberg once said, "My works are twelve tone COMPOSITIONS, not TWELVE TONE compositions"
------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987
Posted By: refugee
Date Posted: October 29 2013 at 17:42
Thanks for listening! I’m glad you liked it.
Boulez often uses less than twelve tones for his rows, so there are many ways of doing it. You don’t have to be schematic. One of the main goals is to escape tonality, the feeling of a tonic, a dominant, a subdominant etc. You can do that without obeying all the rules (and then it’s possible more correct to call it free-tonal music, at least that’s what we do in Norwegian). Maybe Webern was the strictest of them? I’m not sure. On second thoughts, I don’t think so.
I just remembered one more thing: I made sure that the harpsichord part accompanying the fugal theme in the start of the second part contained all twelve notes. It’s still strictly tonal.
------------- He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
(Peter Hammill)
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: October 29 2013 at 17:47
In the last part I used a twelvetone row played forward and backwards so the two rows together form one symmetrical row of 24 notes. Then I generated nine new rows, using a special system I designed myself. The eleventh row, played towards the end together with some other, unrelated musical material – mainly to prevent the piece from dying out with only one instrument playing – is identical to the first.
I’m not sure if it qualifies as serial music, but it’s pretty close.
Thanks refugee, I've listened a few times and really like it. The structure you created for the ending brings up a good point. Schoenberg's original description of this approach was "Method of composing with 12 tones which are only related to one another". The strict rules that define serialism came later - possibly by one of his students? Anyway, it always seemed to me that a fun approach would be to limit a 12 tone composition to a small set of tone rows rather than grabbing several of the matrix. Why? Because by limiting yourself to a few rows, you then give some kind of harmonic framework for the piece. Not as highly structured as composing a mostly diatonic piece in a specific key, but a repeating framework made up of certain intervals appearing in the tone row nonetheless. Theoretically, the ear should begin to connect the dots of these oft appearing intervals...theoretically anyway!
And even if your piece doesn't strictly qualify as serial music, you're in good company as Schoenberg once said, "My works are twelve tone COMPOSITIONS, not TWELVE TONE compositions"
This made me way more excited to attempt an approach on this.
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: October 29 2013 at 17:49
refugee wrote:
Thanks for listening! I’m glad you liked it.
Boulez often uses less than twelve tones for his rows, so there are many ways of doing it. You don’t have to be schematic. One of the main goals is to escape tonality, the feeling of a tonic, a dominant, a subdominant etc. You can do that without obeying all the rules (and then it’s possible more correct to call it free-tonal music, at least that’s what we do in Norwegian). Maybe Webern was the strictest of them? I’m not sure. On second thoughts, I don’t think so.
I just remembered one more thing: I made sure that the harpsichord part accompanying the fugal theme in the start of the second part contained all twelve notes. It’s still strictly tonal.
Hey you're pretty legit with the notation organizations. I enjoy this song you made.
Posted By: refugee
Date Posted: October 29 2013 at 18:03
Thanks, Smurph! And if I may be so bold, I will recommend anyone who hasn’t yet read Dr. Faustus by Thomas Mann to read the novel. The system the fictional composer Adrian Leverkühn develops is based on Schoenberg’s system.
------------- He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
(Peter Hammill)
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: October 29 2013 at 18:46
In the last part I used a twelvetone row played forward and backwards so the two rows together form one symmetrical row of 24 notes. Then I generated nine new rows, using a special system I designed myself. The eleventh row, played towards the end together with some other, unrelated musical material – mainly to prevent the piece from dying out with only one instrument playing – is identical to the first.
I’m not sure if it qualifies as serial music, but it’s pretty close.
Thanks refugee, I've listened a few times and really like it. The structure you created for the ending brings up a good point. Schoenberg's original description of this approach was "Method of composing with 12 tones which are only related to one another". The strict rules that define serialism came later - possibly by one of his students? Anyway, it always seemed to me that a fun approach would be to limit a 12 tone composition to a small set of tone rows rather than grabbing several of the matrix. Why? Because by limiting yourself to a few rows, you then give some kind of harmonic framework for the piece. Not as highly structured as composing a mostly diatonic piece in a specific key, but a repeating framework made up of certain intervals appearing in the tone row nonetheless. Theoretically, the ear should begin to connect the dots of these oft appearing intervals...theoretically anyway!
And even if your piece doesn't strictly qualify as serial music, you're in good company as Schoenberg once said, "My works are twelve tone COMPOSITIONS, not TWELVE TONE compositions"
This made me way more excited to attempt an approach on this.
Cool Smurph, give it a try! It's lots of fun...you'll be amazed at what you can come up with
For anyone else wanting to give it a whirl, these days I use a freeware music composition/notation tool called MuseScore. It's easy to put 12 tone (or any) compositions together, print out the sheet music, convert it to a standard midi file to load on many synth sequencers, etc... http://musescore.org/" rel="nofollow - http://musescore.org/
------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: October 29 2013 at 19:02
I currently use Guitar pro 5 but it makes it way easier to write out guitar tablature instead of music so I've gotten used to it but this program looks cool! I'll try it out.
Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: October 29 2013 at 21:00
Dean wrote:
The row is a specific ordering of all twelve notes of the chromatic scale (without regard to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octave" rel="nofollow - - interval -preserving http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformation_%28music%29" rel="nofollow - prime form (P).
The row in any of its four transformations may begin on any degree of the chromatic scale; in other words it may be freely http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposition_%28music%29" rel="nofollow - - integer between 0 and 11 denoting the number of semitones: thus, if the original form of the row is denoted P0, then P1 denotes its transposition upward by one semitone (similarly I1 is an upward transposition of the inverted form, R1 of the retrograde form, and RI1 of the retrograde-inverted form).
...or so says Wikipedia
Is that music or is it math?
------------- -- Frank Swarbrick Belief is not Truth.
Posted By: Neo-Romantic
Date Posted: October 29 2013 at 21:28
infocat wrote:
Dean wrote:
The row is a specific ordering of all twelve notes of the chromatic scale (without regard to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octave" rel="nofollow - - interval -preserving http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformation_%28music%29" rel="nofollow - prime form (P).
The row in any of its four transformations may begin on any degree of the chromatic scale; in other words it may be freely http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposition_%28music%29" rel="nofollow - - integer between 0 and 11 denoting the number of semitones: thus, if the original form of the row is denoted P0, then P1 denotes its transposition upward by one semitone (similarly I1 is an upward transposition of the inverted form, R1 of the retrograde form, and RI1 of the retrograde-inverted form).
...or so says Wikipedia
Is that music or is it math?
A little of both, really. Constructing the matrix is actually fun to me, like doing a big sudoku puzzle. I don't really have an ear for serial works though.
In this class I'm taking now, I had to write a serialist piece. My goal was to make as consonant a row as possible, and it sort of worked. The trick was to employ a lot of motion by 3rds/6ths.
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: October 29 2013 at 23:36
Smurph wrote:
I currently use Guitar pro 5 but it makes it way easier to write out guitar tablature instead of music so I've gotten used to it but this program looks cool! I'll try it out.
The current MuseScore release (1.3 I think) is great but the upcoming release includes tab in about 15 different variations (guitar/bass/mandolin/etc) and has this cool feature where you can link the tab staff to the standard notation staff. You can enter the note in either staff and it will display in both...you can also alter the tab staff to understand alternate tunings. It's currently in beta test and anyone can d'load the beta version as well as the proper 1.3 release. They also have an excellent forum that the developers moderate
------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: October 30 2013 at 01:21
The.Crimson.King wrote:
irrelevant wrote:
Can't I sum up my thoughts at under a paragraph? I just wanted to say that the compositional technique is not one I'm a fan of. A bit useless to the thread, I know, but I make up for it with the mentioning of Blotted Science (12 tone instrumental prog death metal).
I've never heard of Blotted Science before but your description of "12 tone instrumental prog death metal" was irresistible. Just checked this out and was blown away...it's clearly not serial music (and doesn't follow the highly structured rules) but definitely sounds 12 tone to my ears. And the video is HP Lovecraft's worst nightmare...and just in time for Halloween.
Thanks irrelevant, you made my day
Also found this amazing youtube where Blotted Science guitarist Ron Jarzombek demonstrates how he used the 12 tone composition approach to create the Cretaceous Chasm song in the above video. It's a fascinating view into one musician's approach into 12 tone composition...enjoy!
------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987
Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: October 31 2013 at 08:54
The Pessimist wrote:
irrelevant wrote:
Dean wrote:
irrelevant wrote:
Dean wrote:
irrelevant wrote:
Why have rules?
It is a technique rather than just a set of rules just like Dogme 95 film-making - without the rules it wouldn't be Dogme 95 it would just be film-making - so 12-tone serialism without the rules would be 12-tone atonal music or chromatic music or non-12-tone serialism or just serialism. That said, rules are made to be broken and Schoenberg broke them all the time, however to be "serialism" 12-tones (or any other series of notes) have to be used to create a row or series that is then transformed - this was intended to prevent any single note or sequence from dominating the piece and to challenge the traditional thinking on melody and harmony.
It's a fun technique that makes you think about composition in a different way but if you don't like the rules, don't use them/
It's interesting, no doubt. I've looked up some info on it in the past. I personally would prefer to compose without that technique, that's all.
I know your user name is "irrelevant" but I now wonder what you are doing in this thread if it is not to troll.
Can't I sum up my thoughts at under a paragraph? I just wanted to say that the compositional technique is not one I'm a fan of. A bit useless to the thread, I know, but I make up for it with the mentioning of Blotted Science (12 tone instrumental prog death metal).
"Why have rules."
I might add that all rules are in art are a way of understanding music logically. You can't understand music without limiting yourself. Limiting yourself creates parameters to work without, and if those parameters were not there then you'd be confused by the infinite number of options. I don't know whether you compose music or not, but if you do then you abide by rules, even if you don't know about it. I hear a lot of folk say "If it sounds good then it sounds good." Well, it sounding good is a rule. Also, rules derive from what sounds good or not.
Regarding serialism, it relies heavily on logic and structure. It's mathematical. Shoenberg actually said it was LESS free than tonal music, and the reason being that serialism doesn't have a tonic reference point. In its place you have to create structure out of the atonalism, which is where Arnold's techniques come in. Rhythm also plays a major part in this.
They aren't "rules", because... well, you can do what the hell you like. Whether it's good or not however depends on the presence of logical structure.
Quite right regarding rules, and I do write music myself (the link in my sig will take you to my Bandcamp page). What I meant was I don't really see the point in those compositional guidelines (restrictions on repeating notes for example). All power to ya if you wanna compose 12 tone music, it can sound cool, and it's interesting.
------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385
Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: October 31 2013 at 09:05
The.Crimson.King wrote:
irrelevant wrote:
Can't I sum up my thoughts at under a paragraph? I just wanted to say that the compositional technique is not one I'm a fan of. A bit useless to the thread, I know, but I make up for it with the mentioning of Blotted Science (12 tone instrumental prog death metal).
I've never heard of Blotted Science before but your description of "12 tone instrumental prog death metal" was irresistible. Just checked this out and was blown away...it's clearly not serial music (and doesn't follow the highly structured rules) but definitely sounds 12 tone to my ears. And the video is HP Lovecraft's worst nightmare...and just in time for Halloween.
Thanks irrelevant, you made my day
Glad I could contribute positively.
------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: October 31 2013 at 09:29
irrelevant wrote:
The.Crimson.King wrote:
irrelevant wrote:
Can't I sum up my thoughts at under a paragraph? I just wanted to say that t<span style="line-height: 1.2;">he compositional technique is not one I'm a fan of. A bit useless to the thread, I know, but I make up for it with the mentioning of Blotted Science (12 tone instrumental prog death metal). </span>
I've never heard of Blotted Science before but your description of "12 tone instrumental prog death metal" was irresistible. Just checked this out and was blown away...it's clearly not serial music (and doesn't follow the highly structured rules) but definitely sounds 12 tone to my ears. And the video is HP Lovecraft's worst nightmare...and just in time for Halloween.
HolyMoly wrote:
