I'm curious about the circumstances where Renaissance featuring Relf & McCarthy etc (from the ashes of Yardbirds)ceased to exist and Renaissance featuring Annie Haslam was put together. There must be some practical, formal connections between these groups with no single member in both of them?? Has anyone read about the bands' history?   Was it like "Hey, if you are calling it a day, may we use the name Renaissance as we want to follow in a similar style?" or were perhaps some record company men or producers behind the idea? - And is it perhaps the only such case in rock history? (I know that e.g. Genesis had to think of another name at first because of some soon-to-be-disbanded group of that name, but that's not comparable to the Renaissance case.)

You may find this interview with Renaissance (in 1977) relevant Matti ...

http://www.nlightsweb.com/lib/reviews/nightbrd.htm - http://www.nlightsweb.com/lib/reviews/nightbrd.htm

I didn't read all of it, but it sounds like it should answer most of your questions ... incidentally, when the Haslam version of Renaissance really took off, the Relf version reformed using the name Illusion (which was also the name of one of their two albums!) ...

Yes it did. An interesting interview, thanks!

Matti wrote: Yes it did. An interesting interview, thanks!

Cheers!

I'll admit I don't know enough about Renaissance (every time I find their albums ... usually overseas) they seem to be really overpriced

So all I have is the Tales Of 1001 Nights compilation which is great and quite an extensive single CD compile ... but doesn't have some real classics like Scherzade, A Song For All Seasons and Ashes Are Burning

I went to school with Keith Relf's sons. They were both pretty good musicans too. One a bassist and one a keyboard player. Didn't want to play in our heavy metal band, though. Think they were more into Shakatak and Mezzaforte.

Could it be that Michael Dunford appeared on the second Renaissance album? Actually this doesn't seem likely, because he appears in the last album of McCarthy/Relf line up, skips Prologue, and re emerges in Ashes are burning... (sorry, I didn't read the interview, I have little time...) 

Anyway, a remotely similar situation occured in Turkey several years ago. Ugur Dikmen, the frontman (keyboardist) of an imitative psych/folk band "Haramiler" (translated "Bandits") from the late '60's, sold the rights to use the name of the band to a handful of youngsters, who are at least 25 years younger than the original members! (The same Ugur Dikmen appeared in several projects with the well-known Turkish singer Cem Karaca from the '70's through the '90's. He has a flamboyant keyboard style, similar to Jon Lord, and partly Wakeman. Sadly, Mr. Karaca died last year). I don't know what happened to the reincarnation of the band, I listened to few of their sh*tty pieces on TV, and never cared about it! I doubt the band would have played such sh*t if it continued to exist with the original members...

now, what do you think about that!

Matti wrote: I'm curious about the circumstances where Renaissance featuring Relf & McCarthy etc (from the ashes of Yardbirds)ceased to exist and Renaissance featuring Annie Haslam was put together. There must be some practical, formal connections between these groups with no single member in both of them?? Has anyone read about the bands' history?   Was it like "Hey, if you are calling it a day, may we use the name Renaissance as we want to follow in a similar style?" or were perhaps some record company men or producers behind the idea? - And is it perhaps the only such case in rock history? (I know that e.g. Genesis had to think of another name at first because of some soon-to-be-disbanded group of that name, but that's not comparable to the Renaissance case.)

If you read the reviews on the first four albums , you may get an idea of what happened. It got really messy around the Illusion album as Dunford was in as a writer and player with this strange just for one track (Mr. Pine , I believe) line-up with nobody of the first album and not yet anybody from Prologue. The only link between the two eras ouside this one Dunford-credited tune is McCarty kept on writing (and - not sure about this, though- producing) in  the Prologue and Ashes album. Funny thing is that the main songwriters on Prologue were non-players (McCarty , Dunford and Tatcher).

Dunford did participated on Illusion and did write Mr. Pine. Betty Tacher was the main lyrics writer in the second line-up of the band but never played. I think that after illusion Jane Relf left the band and was replaced by Annie Haslem (that sang all of Renaissance catalouge in the interview).

For me, they are very good from 69 to 79. Azur d'or was so so and Camera camera embaresing. Still I prefer the era of Turn of the cards to A song for all seasons because they are so symphonic !

The official website has a detailed biography.

http://www.nlightsweb.com/lib/renhist.htm - http://www.nlightsweb.com/lib/renhist.htm

omri wrote: Dunford did participated on Illusion and did write Mr. Pine. Betty Tacher was the main lyrics writer in the second line-up of the band but never played. I think that after illusion Jane Relf left the band and was replaced by Annie Haslem (that sang all of Renaissance catalouge in the interview). For me, they are very good from 69 to 79. Azur d'or was so so and Camera camera embaresing. Still I prefer the era of Turn of the cards to A song for all seasons because they are so symphonic !

Thanks, Omri! Is that true that Jim McCarty, Michael Dunford and John Tout played together as Renaissance, with Louis Cennamo and Jane Relf?

M. B. Zapelini wrote :

omri wrote: Dunford did participated on Illusion and did write Mr. Pine. Betty Tacher was the main lyrics writer in the second line-up of the band but never played. I think that after illusion Jane Relf left the band and was replaced by Annie Haslem (that sang all of Renaissance catalouge in the interview). For me, they are very good from 69 to 79. Azur d'or was so so and Camera camera embaresing. Still I prefer the era of Turn of the cards to A song for all seasons because they are so symphonic ! Thanks, Omri! Is that true that Jim McCarty, Michael Dunford and John Tout played together as Renaissance, with Louis Cennamo and Jane Relf? Well, I went to check my Illusion to give a correct answer. On that one Dunford is there with McCarthy, Jane Relf, Cenamo, Hawken and Keith Relf (also as a producer of the album). Since Dunford was absent on the third and Annie Haslem is for sure the singer in Ashes are burning I can not see when such a lineup could exist (maybe on live ? do'nt know).

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Sean Trane wrote: [QUOTE=Matti]  It got really messy around the Illusion album as Dunford was in as a writer and player with this strange just for one track (Mr. Pine , I believe) line-up with nobody of the first album and not yet anybody from Prologue.

Dunford wrote "Mr. Pine" and  the instrumental part in this song appears in rearranged form in Renaissance's "Running hard" from "Turn of the cards".

Achim