Hierophant wrote: Yes finally, someone recognizes Death's greatness. Bunch of extraordinary musicians if you ask me. Check out Symboic & Human. The first couple of listens you will probaly think its just technical death/thrash metal but it grows on you. Chuck Schuldiner is an excellent guitarist/lyricist (crystal mountain) and has an excellent sense of dynamics. Symbolic is probaly the best metal drumming album of all time. The band also has atmospheric tendencies - check out "Cosmic Sea" with odd time signatures abound.  No matter how you look at it - Death was a grandfather of death metal/extreme music. There wouldn't be any Opeth if there wasn't any Death.

SO TRUE!!!! They are amazing

props for the thread

[QUOTE=Hierophant]

 No matter how you look at it - Death was a grandfather of death metal/extreme music. There wouldn't be any Opeth if there wasn't any Death.

[/QUOTE]

I seriously doubt that. I don't see many similarities - neither of them invented growling. I'd say that Opeth are much more influenced by Camel than Death.

BTW: I voted no - Death are a highly complex band, but I think they are too firmly rooted in the metal realm. But I can see why someone would consider them prog ... of all the extremely complex Death/Thrash bands out there, Death are one of the few where I can see that possibility. 

Manunkind wrote: I've said it once and I'll say it again - definitely progressive (and AWESOME), but certainly not prog.

EXACTLY. And Death is actually the band that revolitioned Death Metal, and they should stay there, in their realms, like MikeInRegalia said.

Actually, Symbolic and human are some of it's best albums, but I really think you are forgeting "Individual Thought Patterns", and, putting tastes aside, I think that album has better drums than symbolic, even though both are played by Gene Hoglan, of course. .

Coya wrote: Manunkind wrote: I've said it once and I'll say it again - definitely progressive (and AWESOME), but certainly not prog.  EXACTLY. And Death is actually the band that revolitioned Death Metal, and they should stay there, in their realms, like MikeInRegalia said. Actually, Symbolic and human are some of it's best albums, but I really think you are forgeting "Individual Thought Patterns", and, putting tastes aside, I think that album has better drums than symbolic, even though both are played by Gene Hoglan, of course. .

... but even Hoglan's inventive and rock-solid drumming IMO pales a little in comparison with Richard Christie on "The Sound of Perseverance". Melody is the key word here.

Manunkind wrote: Coya wrote: Manunkind wrote: I've said it once and I'll say it again - definitely progressive (and AWESOME), but certainly not prog.  EXACTLY. And Death is actually the band that revolitioned Death Metal, and they should stay there, in their realms, like MikeInRegalia said. Actually, Symbolic and human are some of it's best albums, but I really think you are forgeting "Individual Thought Patterns", and, putting tastes aside, I think that album has better drums than symbolic, even though both are played by Gene Hoglan, of course. . ... but even Hoglan's inventive and rock-solid drumming IMO pales a little in comparison with Richard Christie on "The Sound of Perseverance". Melody is the key word here.

I don't think he is actually "better", they are both really good drumers, and both are excelent albums, but the atmospheres are totally different. SoP gives you a more heavy atmosphere (just the fact that they did a Painkiller cover can tell you that),and like you said, the melody is very important, but ITP is more experimental I think. Maybe it's just a matter of tastes.

Coya wrote: Manunkind wrote: Coya wrote: Manunkind wrote: I've said it once and I'll say it again - definitely progressive (and AWESOME), but certainly not prog.  EXACTLY. And Death is actually the band that revolitioned Death Metal, and they should stay there, in their realms, like MikeInRegalia said. Actually, Symbolic and human are some of it's best albums, but I really think you are forgeting "Individual Thought Patterns", and, putting tastes aside, I think that album has better drums than symbolic, even though both are played by Gene Hoglan, of course. . ... but even Hoglan's inventive and rock-solid drumming IMO pales a little in comparison with Richard Christie on "The Sound of Perseverance". Melody is the key word here. I don't think he is actually "better", they are both really good drumers, and both are excelent albums, but the atmospheres are totally different. SoP gives you a more heavy atmosphere (just the fact that they did a Painkiller cover can tell you that),and like you said, the melody is very important, but ITP is more experimental I think. Maybe it's just a matter of tastes.

I honestly can't tell which of the two is the better and/or more experimental... I love Hoglan's drumming, but as I've said before, Christie comes accross as being very 'melodic', and I can only think of two, three drummers that gave me a similar impression - one of them is Elvin Jones, a long-time drummer for John Coltrane, among others...  

I prefer 60's and 70's material, but I like this band still very much. Their vocalstyle don't bother me, I like also classic opera, and I can enjoy Peter Hammils singing.

Crash the gates of prejudice for your own sake!

Useful_Idiot wrote: I would support the addition of Death, but let's face it.  If they were to be added, we would all be beaten senseless by a hoard of angry 70s progheads furious at the prospect of a metal band called Death being listed on here.  Their albums from Human (which even features Paul Masvidal and Sean Reinert from Cynic) onwards are very progressive, I'd say the only thing those albums really share in common with death metal is the growled vocals.

Well said. I don't consider them prog, but if they were included I definitely wouldn't make a racket about it.

Manunkind wrote: Useful_Idiot wrote: I would support the addition of Death, but let's face it.  If they were to be added, we would all be beaten senseless by a hoard of angry 70s progheads furious at the prospect of a metal band called Death being listed on here.  Their albums from Human (which even features Paul Masvidal and Sean Reinert from Cynic) onwards are very progressive, I'd say the only thing those albums really share in common with death metal is the growled vocals. Well said. I don't consider them prog, but if they were included I definitely wouldn't make a racket about it.

Very good point. I am not that affected when bands are added (except nightwish ), but I am not sure if they should be added (even though if they have obvious prog tendencies and history -cynic members-) because they are deeply death-metal rooted, excentially death-metal.

Pseud0 wrote: Death's Human album is an absolute masterpiece - great band.  All the albums are very good.  I have all of them besides Scream bloody gore (the first one)

I think Human is very good but that their best album is Sound of Perseverance.

f**k NO

Jesus, Radiohead is more progressive than Death.

I concider Death regressive for taking part in making screams and nonesence a valid form of music.

Drew wrote: sstarless wrote: Death is defined as progressive death metal, there is no question about this, so of course it should be here.

You know,since this topic started I have dug out my Death cd's and have been listening to Human,Symbolic and Sound of Perseverance and honestly,in light of Opeth and Meshuggah's inclusion,they should be on here.

Definetly!!! Sound of Perseverance is a masterpiece and so is Symbolic.

TheProgtologist wrote: Drew wrote: sstarless wrote: Death is defined as progressive death metal, there is no question about this, so of course it should be here. You know,since this topic started I have dug out my Death cd's and have been listening to Human,Symbolic and Sound of Perseverance and honestly,in light of Opeth and Meshuggah's inclusion,they should be on here.

I LOVE YOU BROTHER

btw- your picture rules- NP is my fav drummer- ever

Drew wrote: TheProgtologist wrote: Drew wrote: sstarless wrote: Death is defined as progressive death metal, there is no question about this, so of course it should be here. You know,since this topic started I have dug out my Death cd's and have been listening to Human,Symbolic and Sound of Perseverance and honestly,in light of Opeth and Meshuggah's inclusion,they should be on here. I LOVE YOU BROTHER btw- your picture rules- NP is my fav drummer- ever

ty drew.I have been drumming since age 6 and Peart is the main man in my "holy trinity" of favorite drummers-Peart,Portnoy and Carey.

King of Loss wrote: How can you call a band that is hailed mostly in the DEATH METAL SCENE as Progressive Metal? Geez.........

Listen to them - they're quite complex. Too complex to be reduced to Death Metal, a bit like Cynic.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: King of Loss wrote: How can you call a band that is hailed mostly in the DEATH METAL SCENE as Progressive Metal? Geez......... Listen to them - they're quite complex. Too complex to be reduced to Death Metal, a bit like Cynic.

Exactly!!!!

philippe wrote: and together we summon the devil!!

To do that we simply have to add more metal bands until we have 666 of them in the archives.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: King of Loss wrote: How can you call a band that is hailed mostly in the DEATH METAL SCENE as Progressive Metal? Geez......... Listen to them - they're quite complex. Too complex to be reduced to Death Metal, a bit like Cynic.

Death Metal does not reduce anyone. Prog is not a quality, it is a style, and if a band plays mainly death metal with prog influences, then it's as simple as that, death metal with prog influences. Everyone can make complex music without being prog. F***ing superiority complexes!!

Coya wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: King of Loss wrote: How can you call a band that is hailed mostly in the DEATH METAL SCENE as Progressive Metal? Geez......... Listen to them - they're quite complex. Too complex to be reduced to Death Metal, a bit like Cynic. Death Metal does not reduce anyone. Prog is not a quality, it is a style, and if a band plays mainly death metal with prog influences, then it's as simple as that, death metal with prog influences. Everyone can make complex music without being prog. F***ing superiority complexes!!

I didn't mean to bash Death Metal. But the general Death Metal style is not about complexity, more about brutal thrashing and growling. Every complex Death Metal band is described with an adjective like complex or progressive.

Ow God, People watch out, this looks lika a Flamewar to me. Some harsh languege commin up. No one likes a pooty-mouth, so watch ye languege, young men...

philippe wrote: and together we summon the devil!!

Back, fiend, or I'll pour holy water on ye!

I'd like to see the death metal bashers here play the bass lines from Cannibal Corpse songs (with their fingers, because this is how Alex Webster plays them).

Of course, chops alone do not music make.

But they can shut some mouths

I think good Death Metal may hold similar iconoclastic values as ELP and VdGG F.Ex. Death metal doesn't also need to do anything with service of satan. Check BLACK WIDOW's "Sacrifice" from the archives!

Poll Question: Should Death be on progarchives??
Poll Choice	Votes	Poll Statistics
YES	16	[41.03%]
NO	9	[23.08%]
DON’T KNOW THAT BAND	14	[35.90%]

I have all of Death's album after Human thank you very much, very boring Melodic Thrash metal if you ask me.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: Coya wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: King of Loss wrote: How can you call a band that is hailed mostly in the DEATH METAL SCENE as Progressive Metal? Geez......... Listen to them - they're quite complex. Too complex to be reduced to Death Metal, a bit like Cynic. Death Metal does not reduce anyone. Prog is not a quality, it is a style, and if a band plays mainly death metal with prog influences, then it's as simple as that, death metal with prog influences. Everyone can make complex music without being prog. F***ing superiority complexes!! I didn't mean to bash Death Metal. But the general Death Metal style is not about complexity, more about brutal thrashing and growling. Every complex Death Metal band is described with an adjective like complex or progressive.

Well, actually most of the death metal bands aren't really good, but the extraordinary ones, or at least most of them, are really technical and complex, like Cryptopsy or Nile; and of course Death.

Coya wrote: Well, actually most of the death metal bands aren't really good, but the extraordinary ones, or at least most of them, are really technical and complex, like Cryptopsy or Nile; and of course Death.

You are right, most of them ain't good, but but there's lots of prog too which I don't like. And I personally do think technicality nor complexity always makes music good. For me it's more about moods and aestethics. The best "Death metal" I have heard was from non-released private tapings!

mosh mosh mosh mosh mosh mosh mosh

Thank you Mike. :D For a long time i have been waiting this time, although i don't like Death very much, except a couple of songs.

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14815&KW=therion - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14815& amp;KW=therion

Although the many musicians in this band were very good at what they do, and the sound of the band is indeed due to them, one cannot escape the fact that Death was a one man band created and maintained by Chuck Schuldiner RIP, as everyone into this band should know. You can read his personal statements in the booklets of the albums. For instance in the booklet of Human there is his phrase - "this is more than an album for me, it is a statement it is revenge" (something in those lines) In addition every album after spiritual healing has the phrase support music not rummors because of Chuck's personal experience in that field with magazines and other slizzy bashers.

Hence, no more death albums, especially if it is to be determined by his family and his dominant mother, Jane who hold now all the rights to his songs along with the record companies.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: Well, I added them yesterday.

Great job Mike.

Their inclusion was long overdue.

this is the site dedicated to Chuck and Death that is supported by his family:

http://www.emptywords.org/ - http://www.emptywords.org/

^ thanks avestin ... I also used this link when I added Death:

Great resource for infos about Chuck, Death and Control Denied.

About the ratings: We need some definitive guidelines on how the rating in the archives should reflect the progressiveness of the album. So far the consensus seems to be that the 5 star rating is reserved for progressive albums. I think that anyone is free to rate any album in the archives the way he/she wants to. But my own approach to this problem is simply to remove one star from my genre-independent rating.

BTW: Of course you're right about the progressive elements only showing up on Human and the newer albums - I also mention that in the biography.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ thanks avestin ... I also used this link when I added Death: http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_BAND.asp?band_id=2368 - http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_BAN D.asp?band_id=2368 Great resource for infos about Chuck, Death and Control Denied. About the ratings: We need some definitive guidelines on how the rating in the archives should reflect the progressiveness of the album. So far the consensus seems to be that the 5 star rating is reserved for progressive albums. I think that anyone is free to rate any album in the archives the way he/she wants to. But my own approach to this problem is simply to remove one star from my genre-independent rating. BTW: Of course you're right about the progressive elements only showing up on Human and the newer albums - I also mention that in the biography.

Yes,you made it very clear in the bio that they started out a pure death metal band but their sound progressed on their later albums.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ thanks avestin ... I also used this link when I added Death: http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_BAND.asp?band_id=2368 - http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_BAN D.asp?band_id=2368 Great resource for infos about Chuck, Death and Control Denied. About the ratings: We need some definitive guidelines on how the rating in the archives should reflect the progressiveness of the album. So far the consensus seems to be that the 5 star rating is reserved for progressive albums. I think that anyone is free to rate any album in the archives the way he/she wants to. But my own approach to this problem is simply to remove one star from my genre-independent rating. BTW: Of course you're right about the progressive elements only showing up on Human and the newer albums - I also mention that in the biography.

I apologize on my rudeness, I didn't say what a good job you did on their inclusion, sorry.

King of Loss wrote: I have all of Death's album after Human thank you very much, very boring Melodic Thrash metal if you ask me.

Correct