Two "DSAs"
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Topic: Two "DSAs"
Posted By: Epignosis
Subject: Two "DSAs"
Date Posted: December 30 2012 at 17:06
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Something my wife and I were discussing while I cooked supper. Given our political divisiveness as a nation, would it be a good thing if the USA became two independent countries? If so, how should we peaceably dissolve our union? How should the current debt be divided? If not, why not? ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Replies:
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: December 30 2012 at 18:05
I would not be opposed to that at all, actually. It might be a good thing if those on the left and those on the right went their separate ways. I do think it should only be decided by a vote of the people in each state though, that's too big of a decision to be left to the politicians to decide. As for the debt, there are probably two ways to divide it, the easier way, on a strict per capita basis, or the more difficult, but possibly fairer way, using a ratio of the amount of federal services used by the state vs. the amount of revenue the state contributed to the federal government to decide the amount of debt each state would assume upon leaving the union. One issue that would also have to be addressed would be the free movement of people between the states, especially as the left states are divided between the northeast, parts of the midwest and part of the west coast, where the right states are the plains and the south. If California and New York are part of the same country, but divided by a country in the middle of the continent, there must be free travel between the states, both by ground and air. The devil here will be in the details, but as a general premise I approve of such a division. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Epignosis wrote:Posted By: zappaholic
Date Posted: December 30 2012 at 18:07
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I think the fragmentation of the US into two or more separate countries is inevitable. We are "united" in name only at this point. It's not going to happen peaceably though. There will be bloodshed, and lots of it. ------------- "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: December 30 2012 at 19:04
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California, New England, Texas, The South, and the rest...
Of course I agree it could happen, and probably should. ------------- 
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: December 30 2012 at 19:38
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The South instantly becomes a 3rd world country. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: December 30 2012 at 20:10
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I'm not for the idea, exactly, but I'm sure it's inevitable. ------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow">  The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: December 30 2012 at 20:25
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 30 2012 at 20:28
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'should the USA divide peacefully into two countries?' is a bit of a trick question though I know you probably didn't mean it that way |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: December 30 2012 at 20:47
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We need an entire world only made of municipalities. -------------
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Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: December 30 2012 at 21:13
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I think its a sad thing to even ask this question. I think we're not as divided as some like to state. Nonetheless, if the majority is some states wish to leave, then we should let them peacefully. I certainly see no reason where there would need to be armed resistance to such, unless it was a minority that was doing it over the will of the majority of the local population. ------------- -- Frank Swarbrick Belief is not Truth. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: December 30 2012 at 21:59
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Terrible idea, your enemies have saved up long and hard to buy the weapons you sold to them so they'll be mightily hacked off at having to use 2 warheads when hitherto, one would have sufficed ------------- 
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Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: December 30 2012 at 22:27
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No. The United States' economic system is so intricate as it is, I can't see splitting it up as a good idea. It would mess up the lives of thousands of people, split families, and possibly result in conflict between the two new nations or between one of those nations and another that jumps at the chance of exploiting the vulnerability that the two new nations would have. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if the US did split eventually. It may not be in our lifetimes, though. It could be 100 or 200 years from now. Of course, the country may not split, but just collapse all at once to internal pressure or enemy forces. ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: January 01 2013 at 14:08
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A strange idea, at least from an European point of view. I'm not even sure that European Union will stand another decade (farewell UK? What about Belgium, Catalunya, etc...?) and, for some reason, I'm not sure that a dissolution/secession of the USA would be a positive signal for the rest of the world. Or would the two Koreas reunite and give us hopes of global unification? (a reunification of Genesis or Pink Floyd would be far more believable, though). |
Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: January 01 2013 at 14:18
| I'd like to see 2 California's myself. |
Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: January 01 2013 at 14:20
Epic. With the exception of Florida,Atlanta and New Orleans this would be true.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: January 01 2013 at 14:32
So the American South suddenly would become non-allied with either NATO or the Soviet Union during the Cold War?  Interesting.------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: January 01 2013 at 14:39
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I'd say no. If so, this should have been done before 1861. But who am I to say such a thing when I'm an European shouting from the other side of the pool? ------------- 
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Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: January 01 2013 at 14:47
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I find it interesting that there are 8 no votes. Are those American votes or international. Because here in America, I can only imagine that the conservatives would love to get rid of us liberals, and we liberals would love to get rid of the conservatives. The only way to do that peaceably, which I would hope would be the preferred method for all, would be to divide the US into two.
------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: January 01 2013 at 15:26
I'm more of a conservative, but I would prefer not to see either side get their way on everything. And I would hate to see families and friendships split up as people move to separate countries. I would rather see the battleground for many of the issues that divide us become the states; we could try and reduce the role of the federal government and let the states decide on unemployment benefits, welfare, gay marriage, etc. That way, people could choose a more liberal or more conservative state while still remaining unified under the USA. That might just make us more divided, though, I don't know. ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 01 2013 at 16:12
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Your little country is two hundred and thirty six years old And it's not quite the new land So we spell out the words We don't want it to understand Like t.a.x, or maybe s.p.e.n.d.i.n.g. But the words were hiding from it now Tears the heart right out of me Chorus:
Your d.i.v.o.r.c.e. becomes final today You and uncle s.a.m. will be going away You love yourselves and this will be Pure h.e.double.l for you Oh, I wish that you could rush this D. I. V. O. R. C. Eeeeeeee.
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------------- What? |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: January 01 2013 at 16:28
Might need more than 2. 
But lets roll the dice. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 01 2013 at 20:47
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: January 01 2013 at 20:50
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I don't want to start a separate poll- But suppose I had asked this: Should the US dissolve into fifty countries, each state it's own sovereign nation? Has a central government outlived its purpose? ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 01 2013 at 20:58
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^ Well when you put it that way; No. I've seen the wonder on an immigrant's face - particularly someone from, say, Israel, but really almost any continent - when they realize they won't be stopped at a state border, won't need papers or be searched. They know it but until they actual travel state-to-state, it isn't real to them, they can't comprehend how a nation could be made up of smaller states in such a fluid, relaxed, pan-cultural way. Plus I'd hate to waste the sacrifice of all those Union soldiers. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 01 2013 at 23:13
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^But it doesn't really feel like you're changing much when you move from state to state. That wonder you express would be felt by that Israel citizen in Europe much more than here, where there's still much in common between the states, the people that live in them, their culture, the laws, and the sense of an overpowering government ruling them all. In Europe it's actually incredible when you change from country to country without passports or visas, even though in that unnatural union everything but the currency changes once you cross borders.
On the question, yes, no problem with 50 states. As long as they allow me to claim citizenship from one other than FL -------------
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Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: January 02 2013 at 18:03
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Before splitting the USA into 2, 3, 15, 50, 100... states, don't forget to give back New Orleans to France. I mean, come on, guys, this city was fine when we sold it to you. What the hell have you done with it over the last two centuries??? |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: January 02 2013 at 19:15
| ^Only if you can pay the 22 billion dollars to Haiti for the colonial brutalization. |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: January 02 2013 at 20:24
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WHAT?!? There are hundreds of bands from USA listed in PA database. We'll have to assign a new country for each of them!
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: January 02 2013 at 20:33
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618,000 Americans died in the Civil War. I would like to think their sacrifices, on both sides, puts the current pettiness, bickering and selfishness into perspective. So, no, splitting the U.S. in two is a fairly asinine proposition. I think, when it comes down to it, more people care about the 'United' in United States than splitting the country up into red and blue states, or making each state independent, or making each individual a state. Split up the country and the hyenas will come from elsewhere to pick at the bones. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: January 02 2013 at 20:35
You "would like to think." But does it? What if the current "bickering" led to a greater war? ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: January 02 2013 at 22:49
Who exactly would you fight, Epi? Your neighbor? The democrat who has gone to church faithfully for 30 or 40 years? Would you kill a poor family subsisting on food stamps down to the last child for your "beliefs"? Are you going to commit genocide on blacks and Hispanics because, you know, they historically vote a certain way? And these two states, how exactly will you break them down? I suggest you read up on the partition of India and Pakistan for some brutal highlights of what happens when millions of people are expatriated from their homes and sent somewhere else because they are "different". Are you ready to be kicked out of your home and be sent to the other side of the country if that's where your contingent of fanatics live? Are you ready for you and your kids to spend some time in a concentration camp if you get caught behind the line? No, I've read too much of Polish ghettos and Serbian ethnic-cleansing to want any part of what you suggest. There is no splitting up the U.S.peaceably into two separate states. It would be a sad day for all of us... And death will follow. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 02 2013 at 23:15
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But Dark Elf, haven't these type of massacres occured precisely because groups that were very homogeneous wanted to break free from others that were, according to them, different? The problem lies not in a powerful government bonding things together by force but in people being people, being sectarian, thinking as a group and de-individualizing the other, and that is, as we have seen, an unstoppable force that caused world wars (let's remember how the first one, which caused the second one, started) and massacres like those in Serbia or Rwanda. I don't see violence occurring in a hypothetical US partition because of the prevailing culture here, the division and the problems might have an economic basis but not a deep racial/ethnic/cultural one. After all, with clear differences, the people living in the US still somewhat share common cultural factors. When groups have been put together that utterly hated each other from the start, time has led, without exceptions, to an explosion of hate and death. I don't see that happening in the US if sovereign states decide to secede one day. What could be worse is if the people reach a point where they actually WANT to part ways and they are forced to stay together. Then you are just preparing the cauldron... -------------
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Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: January 03 2013 at 17:14
Well, as long as it doesn't lead to new regional subgenres: NY Sympho Prog; LA RIO; Chicago Post-Rock; and so on... |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 03 2013 at 17:54
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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: January 03 2013 at 19:27
It feels like it already. Might as well (though somewhere between 2 and 50 would probably be better) And, no. IMO it has not. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: caretaker
Date Posted: January 03 2013 at 19:47
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If you look back through our country's history, we have always had division. But that's one of the reasons the founding fathers went through all the trouble to do what they did. We have a government where all voices are heard and we talk things out to the extreme to try to ensure that as many are pleased as possible with the end result.
We are not always entirely successful and probably never will be. We have made some horrible mistakes. Slavery, the unfair treatment of certain segments of our population, the treatment of Native Americans, our dabbling and sometimes downright interfering in the affairs of other nations etc. But overall we have have done a damned good job of building this country into a place where people from around the world still want to come and live and we did it as one nation.
We have tried splitting and we all know the result and we are still paying for it. If we survive, we will do it as one country. We have a lot of problems but we have come a long way in a very short time and growing pains are inevitable. The United States of America at this point is but a short paragraph in the history of humanity. I say we all sink or swim together.
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Posted By: manofmystery
Date Posted: January 03 2013 at 21:49
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We don't need to divide into two seperate nations (would be a more fractured break if there is one), we just need to repeal the 17th amendment so that states can regain their seat at the table in DC. -------------  Time always wins. |
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: January 03 2013 at 23:17
I'm all for states rights and representation, but I think that letting politicians elect other politicians is just a recipe for disaster. ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: manofmystery
Date Posted: January 04 2013 at 00:02
As opposed to all the success we've had with direct election by popular vote? Local/state government's only tie to the federal government is that of a neutered dog on it's master's leash. Here's an idea: one country for the politicians and bureaucrats and one for the people. That's a seperation I can get behind. ------------- Time always wins. |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: January 04 2013 at 01:06
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Yeah, good idea. Divide and conquer. Or should I say, divide and wait for the conqueror.
------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: January 04 2013 at 08:45
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USA = 313 847 465 inhabitants. It could make a lot of micro-nations. |