Trolls scare a band from PA

Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements
Forum Name: Report abuse here
Forum Description: Let us know about inappropriate reviews, posts, PMs, etc.
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=90531
Printed Date: November 23 2024 at 06:33
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Topic: Trolls scare a band from PA

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Subject: Trolls scare a band from PA
Date Posted: November 09 2012 at 23:01

Some weeks ago I received a mail from Erik de Beer from Like Line Project.

The guy was really pissed, because apparently a group of guys who supported the band Battlestation or Trascend (According to him, not sure which one) and their later release started to give a 1 star rating to the latest albums by Life Line Project.

A relatively unknown band with few reviews and a decent rating , suffers if 20 trolls start to flood them with 1 star ratings.

He wanted to leave ProgArchives, I talked with him and his sister Dorinde, but the ratings without reviews continued.

Today I read a mail from him telling me that he had retired the band from PA, I believe M@X or an ADM deleted the band for him.

Sadly we lost them, being that the band is really good, they mentioned ProgArchives in their last 4 albums, and I consider Erik a friend, even when I don't support his attitude, but this could be the first one of several deletions if we don't stop the manipulators who want their favorite band to be the best of the year.

Iván

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Replies:

Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 01:26

Is it completely impossible that 20 people legitimately thought the album was rubbish?

Posted By: Raccoon
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 02:32

His last album 20 Years After got fantastic reviews here. (I remember!! Many 5 star reviews!) It seems a bit drastic to just leave the site altogether as--good or bad--prog lovers will SEE the albums.

Every album has some 1 star reviews. EVERY. ONE. Even Close To The Edge, and I believe he lost many prog-goers that could've checked out the album from here. I, (and I'm sure many others) only refer to this site to check out the latest albums in prog.

As Triceratopsoil said, if a bunch of people are giving the album 1 star, they obviously don't like the album much. The raters obviously don't take the rating guidelines properly, as it should've been at least 2 stars for fans.

Anyways, it's too bad because he seemed to be quite liked on this site. Maybe he'll come to his senses later.

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Check out my FREE album: A one-man project The Distant Dynasty

https://distantdynasty.bandcamp.com/

Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 03:00

Another example of the downside of the "quick ratings" facility. Ouch

Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 04:37

^Can't disagree there Bob. But this guy seems very thin skinned. Better to be here than not, whatever the ratings I would have thought?

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http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">

Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 04:50

Ratings only will never be a good system. At first it sounds good, but some people are extreeme and its so easy to use it in ways not intended.

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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 05:10

Why didn't you bring this to our attention weeks ago?

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What?

Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 05:26

^What...Admin were not informed? So how come Max didn't say anything but just deleted them. Also strange...

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http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 05:51

...not strange (really)

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What?

Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 05:52

Dean wrote:

...not strange (really)

Maybe not. Tongue

I suppose I'm saying that if it was my site I would have informed my Admin boys and see if the could sort something out. Or at least so they knew. But I'm not Max. And if I had been Ivan I would have informed someone in Admin about this situation ages ago. But I'm not Ivan.

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http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">

Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 06:24

Snow Dog wrote:

Dean wrote:

...not strange (really)

Maybe not. Tongue

Bloody good job too mate. Wouldn't like you very much if you were LOL

I do find it staggering that the admins were not informed, and if I were an admin, I would be pretty brassed off, to be honest.

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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org

Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!

Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 06:59

Maybe ratings without reviews isn't such a good idea after all.

This case may be an exception, but it happened and it can happen again, and it's sad and unnecessary .

I know that presenting the option of people being able to rate alone without reviews fits good within the current internet culture.

But maybe it's not the best thing for the PA database.

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 08:04

Slightly more disappointing than not being given the opportunity to correct this is the fact that the evidence has been deleted so we will never know who these 20 rating manipulators are and what other albums they have affected with their selfish actions.

Shame.

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What?

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 09:32

Snow Dog wrote:

Dean wrote:

...not strange (really)

Maybe not. Tongue

The fact is that I was never informed he talked with M@X, I spoke repeatedly with him and his sister Dorinde (who manages the band), and I convinced her they were better here than away from PA.

This is the sequence

1.- He wanted to talk directly with M@X and asked me absolute discretion, but I never made the contact.with M@X

2.- I convinced his sister Dorinde (manager of the band) not to retire Life Line Project, as a fact I supposed she would never find M@X.

2.- He insisted to keep this directly with M@X and nobody else,

3.- I have a great relation with his sister Dorinde and convinced her this was negative for them, his sister told me everything was OK and that she agreed with me , and then I lost the trace of them, I never talked with M@x or knew he talked with M@X, but as far as i know, everything was solved

4.- I had no communication with Erik, for a month and no news from him

5.- I notified the Adms the name of two of this guys in the proper thread

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

The users

GREWOLDERHTP and ADELIS

http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=42704&listreviews=rate&showall=true#reviews" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=42704&listreviews=rate&showall=true#reviews

http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=42004&listreviews=rate&showall=true#reviews" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=42004&listreviews=rate&showall=true#reviews

Have similar ratings to almost the same rare albums

Seem like trolls to me

Iván

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85724&PN=4

My post is there unread

6.- I thought everything was forgotten

7.- I received his mail yesterday informing me that he found 20 more reviews and that he had already retired the band with M@X without notifying me.

I had no participation in the removal if LIFE LINE PROJECT or even knew he had retired the band until yesterday

Iván

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 09:42

Dean wrote:

Why didn't you bring this to our attention weeks ago?

1.- Because I thought everything was solved

2.- Because you have stated repeatedly you can't do a thing with trolls.

3.- I notified about two of them and nothing was done

Iván

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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 09:53

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Snow Dog wrote:

Dean wrote:

...not strange (really)

Maybe not. Tongue

The fact is that I was never informed he talked with M@X, I spoke repeatedly with him and his sister Dorinde (who manages the band), and I convinced her they were better here than away from PA.

This is the sequence

1.- He wanted to talk directly with M@X and asked me absolute discretion, but I never made the contact.with M@X

2.- I convinced his sister Dorinde (manager of the band) not to retire Life Line Project, as a fact I supposed she would never find M@X.

2.- He insisted to keep this directly with M@X and nobody else,

4.- I had no communication with Erik, for a month and no news from him

5.- I notified the Adms the name of two of this guys in the proper thread

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

The users

GREWOLDERHTP and ADELIS

Have similar ratings to almost the same rare albums

Seem like trolls to me

Iván

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85724&PN=4

My post is there unread

6.- I thought everything was forgotten

7.- I received his mail yesterday informing me that he had founded 20 more reviews and that he had already retired the band with M@X without notifying me.

I had no participation in the removal if LIFE LINE PROJECT or even knew he had rfetired the band untikl yesterday

Iván

Than you for taking the time to clear that up. Could you do this in future without larger font and bold type?

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http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 10:08

Snow Dog wrote:

Than you for taking the time to clear that up. Could you do this in future without larger font and bold type?

That's the way I write to highlight sections SD

I hope you accept my style.

Iván

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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 10:10

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Snow Dog wrote:

Than you for taking the time to clear that up. Could you do this in future without larger font and bold type?

That's the way I write to highlight sections SD

I hope you accept my style.

Iván

I find it rather irritating but if you must use it you must.

Live and let live, so they say.

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http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 10:27

Just in case, I received this mail yesterday

Hi Iván,

I am sorry to tell you that Erik has had his page removed from ProgArchives.

Kind regards,

Dorinde

I don't even know how he did it

Iván

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Posted By: Battlestations
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 11:16

Hi all,

Since we were directly mentioned in the first post, we'd like to specify that we didn't have anything to do with the ratings abuse and manipulation that took place over the last week or so. Just so that's clear.

Cheers

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 11:22

Battlestations wrote:

Hi all,

Cheers

No my friend, it's not you.

There are fans from several bands who always do this kind of things.

The bands are never responsible, we all know that

Cheers

Iván

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 11:50

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Dean wrote:

Why didn't you bring this to our attention weeks ago?

1.- Because I thought everything was solved

2.- Because you have stated repeatedly you can't do a thing with trolls.

This is me not doing a thing with trolls so far this year:

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...and I did the same thing in 2011, 2010, 2009, 2008....

So yeah: I can't do a thing with trolls,I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls, I can't do a thing with trolls,

... but I still try.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

3.- I notified about two of them and nothing was done

Iván

How, where and to whom?

-------------
What?

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 12:02

Dean wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Dean wrote:

Why didn't you bring this to our attention weeks ago?

1.- Because I thought everything was solved

2.- Because you have stated repeatedly you can't do a thing with trolls.

This is me not doing a thing with trolls so far this year:

Action	Section	Date
Delete Members Ratings [ForumID: 43341]	admin	11/10/2012 08:52
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...and I did the same thing in 2011, 2010, 2009, 2008....

... but I still try.

As you know, I've not been here for some time (Except to check suggestions) because I no longer feel comnfortable on the forum, and just found this and it's great.....But I remembered the case of the guy who sent some compilations to the top 20, and the information that nothing could be done

Dean wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

3.- I notified about two of them and nothing was done

Iván

How, where and to whom?

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

The users

GREWOLDERHTP and ADELIS

Have similar ratings to almost the same rare albums

Seem like trolls to me

Iván

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85724&PN=4

It's still the last message in the thread (Or was until yesterday)

Iván

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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 12:11

I love when Dean and Ivan fight. It's nice not to be involved in an argument for once.

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 12:14

thellama73 wrote:

I love when Dean and Ivan fight. It's nice not to be involved in an argument for once.

I believe you can understand why I don't feel comfortable any more here.}

I should had never started this thread, because when I start one, I always loose

Iván

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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 12:14

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

I love when Dean and Ivan fight. It's nice not to be involved in an argument for once.

I believe you can understand why I don't feel comfortable any more here.}

I should had never started this thread, because when I start one, I always loose

Iván

Come now, there's nothing wrong with losing. It builds character.

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 12:15

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

I love when Dean and Ivan fight. It's nice not to be involved in an argument for once.

I believe you can understand why I don't feel comfortable any more here.}

I should had never started this thread, because when I start one, I always loose

Iván

I'm not fighting - I asked questions, Iván answered them. The end.

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What?

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 12:21

Well, at least this two guys GREWOLDERHTP and ADELIS have just vanished.

Something good came out of this

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 12:26

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Well, at least this two guys GREWOLDERHTP and ADELIS have just vanished.

Something good came out of this

They are in the list I posted earlier (user IDs 42004 and 42704) - he's from Lazio and he's an arsehole.

I deleted them this afternoon in the mass-block deletions I did (read the date-stamps in my post).

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What?

Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 12:34

If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen....

Posted By: Life Line Project
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 16:20

I am happy a lot of trolls were removed. I think it also might have affected other bands.

Erik - Life Line Project

Posted By: Life Line Project
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 16:26

I hope this discussion will help to improve the control of ratings on PA.

Erik - Life Line Project

Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 16:27

The more important question, Dean, is can you do a thing with the trolls?...

Posted By: Life Line Project
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 16:35

Snow Dog wrote:

Dean wrote:

...not strange (really)

Maybe not. Tongue

I sent mailto:M@x" rel="nofollow - M@x a long mail (in French) reporting this problem on October 18, but he never sent a reply!! Last Wednesday I finally decided to leave PA and contacted mailto:M@x" rel="nofollow - M@x again.

The only response I got the next day is: "Will do right now. Done. Sorry about that."

Iván is the one that helped and supported us!!!

Erik - Life Line Project

Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 16:36

Life Line Project wrote:

Snow Dog wrote:

Dean wrote:

...not strange (really)

Maybe not. Tongue

The only response I got the next day is: "Will do right now. Done. Sorry about that."

Iván is the one that helped and supported us!!!

Erik - Life Line Project

Yeah. Your repeating yourself a bit here.

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http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">

Posted By: Life Line Project
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 16:39

Sorry about that.

PA reported an error on my reply.

Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 16:42

I just find it odd that trolls can drive off a band...

Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 16:43

Snow Dog wrote:

Life Line Project wrote:

Snow Dog wrote:

Dean wrote:

...not strange (really)

Maybe not. Tongue

The only response I got the next day is: "Will do right now. Done. Sorry about that."

Iván is the one that helped and supported us!!!

Erik - Life Line Project

Yeah. Your repeating yourself a bit here.

Noe's not not not not not...

Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 16:45

I would send Max a long e-mail in French. But since I don't really know much French it would be kind of pointless.

Posted By: Life Line Project
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 16:49

I fortunately do.........

Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 16:54

Life Line Project wrote:

I fortunately do.........

Not really. You would have been better off informing Admin here. Then your problem could possibly have been sorted without your deletion. We'll never know now and you lost out.

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http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">

Posted By: Life Line Project
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 17:04

Like I already wrote: I asked mailto:M@x" rel="nofollow - M@x for advice, but he did nothing.

And Iván contacted Admin, but their first response was that everything was hard to prove.

Only when we left PA Admin acted!!!!

Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 17:15

Life Line Project wrote:

Like I already wrote: I asked mailto:M@x" rel="nofollow - M@x for advice, but he did nothing.

And Iván contacted Admin, but their first response was that everything was hard to prove.

Only when we left PA Admin acted!!!!

But YOU did not contact Admin. And they haven't acted since you left, they are always deleting bogus ratings. IF THEY ARE REPORTED!

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http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">

Posted By: Life Line Project
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 17:24

We can discuss about this a long time, but I still regret mailto:M@x" rel="nofollow - M@x didn't reply and Iván wasn't taken seriously.

This is what Iván responded after we left PA: "your retirement gave me weapons to delete some of the trolls".

Trolls were removed after Iván started this thread.....

Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 17:30

Life Line Project wrote:

We can discuss about this a long time, but I still regret mailto:M@x" rel="nofollow - M@x didn't reply and Iván wasn't taken seriously.

This is what Iván responded after we left PA: "your retirement gave me weapons to delete some of the trolls".

Trolls were removed after Iván started this thread.....

I repeat. You would have been better contacting Admin. Your info is based second hand on hearsay. Trolls as you call them have been removed despite this thread.

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http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">

Posted By: Emperor1
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 17:42

Nonsense!!!

I read this discussion and think Prog Archives should have helped this band earlier. He asked a special collaborator for help.

Posted By: pianoman
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 18:06

Life Line Project wrote:

I am happy a lot of trolls were removed. I think it also might have affected other bands.

Erik - Life Line Project

It did...greatly affected my band's (Ocean Architecture) place in the rankings...not like it matters THAT much, but it's still upsetting when people mess with the system. After the trolls were deleted our score went from 3.6 something to 4.16

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 18:13

A asked Erik to addc LLP again,

There'0s a huge list of trolls that vanished, I believe there are moprev weapons nos.

Iván

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 18:21

Snow Dog wrote:

Life Line Project wrote:

We can discuss about this a long time, but I still regret mailto:M@x" rel="nofollow - M@x didn't reply and Iván wasn't taken seriously.

This is what Iván responded after we left PA: "your retirement gave me weapons to delete some of the trolls".

Trolls were removed after Iván started this thread.....

I repeat. You would have been better contacting Admin. Your info is based second hand on hearsay. Trolls as you call them have been removed despite this thread.

I'm taking no credit Snow Dog, Erik must had misunderstood me, I'm trying to locate M@X for a long time, but my PMs and e-mails remain not replied, and honestly, this forum is not the friendliest place for me lately.

I don't delete bands or ratings, I told him that from the start.

The good thing is that a lot of trolls were deleted yesterday....Dean missed my post reporting those two trolls (It's normal, he had a huge list to work with) but now it's easier to deal with this guys.

Iván

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 19:00

Hi Eric,

I deleted the bogus ratings and I regret to say that it was not in response to this thread or as a result of you removing your band from the archive, if I had been made aware of the problem sooner I may have acted sooner. If Iván informed another Admin of this probem I am not aware of it, unfortunately I missed the thread where he posted the two names that concerned him, but he never mentioned anything of your plight.

The process of removing the bogus ratings began a day or two before this thread was started in http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28343&PID=4657096#4657096" rel="nofollow - another thread and was instigated by members of other bands raising this issue.

I do not remove ratings without strong evidence - I will not remove a member's ratings just because he gives 1-star and 5-star ratings, some people are naturally very polarised in their rating, that in itself is not evidence of abuse of the system. Yesterday I managed to collect enough good evidence that one or two people were using multiple accounts to post bogus ratings for me to act and promptly deleted them and suspended the fake accounts. The "troll" responsible returned twice yesterday and hit us again with 100s of bogus ratings - I caught him both times and deleted all the ratings - I cannot give guarantees that he will not return.

It is regretable that you have chosen to have your band removed from the archive, but in all honesty I have to repeat what I have said before - there is nothing I can do to stop trolls from abusing the system - that's a simple fact of life, if someone wants to be an arsehole they will be an arsehole - all I can do is remove them once I can prove they are doing wrong.

I hope you do reconsider and allow Iván to add you back to the PA. Unfortunately we will not be able to recover any of the reviews your albums may have had - those are lost forever.

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What?

Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 19:13

Life Line Project wrote:

I sent mailto:M@x" rel="nofollow - M@x a long mail (in French) reporting this problem on October 18, but he never sent a reply!! Last Wednesday I finally decided to leave PA and contacted mailto:M@x" rel="nofollow - M@x again.

The only response I got the next day is: "Will do right now. Done. Sorry about that.

So it took you a few tries but you finally got results and received a very thoughtful email back from M@x apologizing and immediately fixing the problem. I'd be pleased.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 19:13

Dean wrote:

Hi Eric,

I hope you do reconsider and allow Iván to add you back to the PA. Unfortunately we will not be able to recover any of the reviews your albums may have had - those are lost forever.

Luckily I have the bio, the photos, and at least all my reviews backuped

That's something I learned as a lawyer....Always backup

Oops, I don't have the bio, but that can be done again,

Iván

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 19:48

Atavachron wrote:

The only response I got the next day is: "Will do right now. Done. Sorry about that.

So it took you a few tries but you finally got results and received a very thoughtful email back from M@x apologizing and immediately fixing the problem. I'd be pleased.

David, Eric asked for his band to be removed from the PA, and that's what Max did - that's not fixing the problem.

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What?

Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 12:10

It saddens me that a bunch of bogus raters resulted in a band removing themselves. If this band read this thread can they please reconsider as we value them highly; it is what makes this site great, the fact that bands can be discovered. Now sadly many will never have that privilege.

I noticed the bogus ratings merely because some bands asked me for advice as to what can be done. I pointed them to the admins and it appears they contacted them as I can do nothing but complain and wait for an admin to take action. In another thread I did bring to some admins attention and at least it was discussed.

When Dean deleted all the bogus ratings I was relieved as were the bands, that at least someone did something to fix the problem.

I am with others here that we should get rid of that lazybutt ratngs system, It should be a review and rating at least so you can see some legitimacy in the rating. I dont even bother to look at the ratings as they mean absolutely nothing.They are virtually useless and can be abused and too often are.

Just my thoughts.

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Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 13:21

Hopefully the protocol with problematic issues could be enforced yet more clearer to people involved.
I'm sorry to hear people hurt their feelings with manipulated ratings, they can be fixed.
I believe some patience is however needed with reply times and if the musicians believe to the thing they are doing, esay detectable one-star mickey-mouse trollings could be tolerated until deleted.

I wish peace to you all and hope the spores of positive interaction will bloom later. Ying Yang

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 13:38

The ratings-only should be subject to a seperate counting-system with its own chart and not be used to calculate the average ratings or main chart postition. This will allow the rating abusers to play at their hearts content without upsetting anyone and give a more accurate reflection of an albums popularity rather than a band or genre's unpopularity.

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What?

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 13:58

Dean wrote:

The ratings-only should be subject to a seperate counting-system with its own chart and not be used to calculate the average ratings or main chart postition. This will allow the rating abusers to play at their hearts content without upsetting anyone and give a more accurate reflection of an albums popularity rather than a band or genre's unpopularity.

That's something we asked a long time ago..Bravo Dean.

A troll would have to write a 200 words review to mess with ratings, and that would limit it, being that it takes time.

Iván

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Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 14:16

A troll will always find a way to be a troll.

Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 14:38

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

That's something we asked a long time ago..Bravo Dean.

A troll would have to write a 200 words review to mess with ratings, and that would limit it, being that it takes time.

Iván

That would be great to see ratings have no effect Big smile

I wonder if albums would then jump back or forward when those ratings are rejigged to have no effect.... Interesting Sleepy

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Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 14:55

I don't think it's a good decision. There could be some rating abusers, but most people give honest ratings. It's like if police would arrest everybody because some criminals are around.

We already have much more than necessary reviews of popular albums, I always say hundreds of reviews of some albums is a crazy thing.

We'll solve one problem and get a number of poorly written reviews instead.

And let's not forget, ratings without reviews is the only way to give their opinion for people who don't feel they can write good reviews or think that their English is poor for this. Why do we need to separate these people?

Please leave the system as it is!

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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)

Posted By: pianoman
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 15:17

NotAProghead wrote:

I don't think it's a good decision. There could be some rating abusers, but most people give honest ratings. It's like if police would arrest everybody because some criminals are around.

We already have much more than necessary reviews of popular albums, I always say hundreds of reviews of some albums is a crazy thing.

We'll solve one problem and get a number of poorly written reviews instead.

Please leave the system as it is!

Totally agree. I say that once new accounts are created, there should be something stopping them from rating albums at first. Maybe they have to write a certain amount of reviews first, or make at least 15 forum posts, etc.

Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 15:36

^ I think some number of posts in the forum is enough to see whether the person is adequate or not. No need to make people write reviews if they can't or don't want to.

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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)

Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 15:39

Life Line Project wrote:

We can discuss about this a long time, but I still regret mailto:M@x" rel="nofollow - M@x didn't reply and Iván wasn't taken seriously.

This is what Iván responded after we left PA: "your retirement gave me weapons to delete some of the trolls".

Trolls were removed after Iván started this thread.....

Max is the webmaster and owner of PA, but issues like these are normally handled by the appointed admins. Max simply can´t answer all PMs send directly to him in a timely manner. You seem disappointed by his answer/his blind acceptance of your request to delete your band, but Max isn´t the right person to contact for help with things like this. Had you contacted an admin, a discussion about the request would most likely have taken place in the admin zone and admin action might have been taken against the trolls.

...this is not necessarily a matter of course and most people might not know this, but it´s the admins who know what´s going on, on the site. Max has a much more superficial knowledge of what goes on in the forum and with ratings and reviews.

...I hope you´ll reconsider and let Ivan add your band again. Don´t let the damn trolls win...

...as Dean said earlier, the admins will take action if they discover blatant abuse. Sometimes it´s hard to prove that it´s abuse, but as you can see Dean is a very thorough admin, and had this been reported to the right persons, there might have been a good chance that this situation could have been solved to your satisfaction.

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http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - Metal Music Archives

https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM

Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 15:45

I support this. Even if the affect on the ratings is quite small, as you have already demonstrated in the past, the fact is that these constant manipulations have a damaging effect on perception of the site.

Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 16:02

I say it again - separating reviews and ratings will not necessarily solve the problem.

Imagine, there is some album nobody cares to review (not a rare thing at all), but a bunch of "blue meanies" gives it their 1-star ratings. And what?

While proposed feature makes the rating system more confusing and breaks (in my opinion) some fundamental PA principles.

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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)

Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 16:08

It would make it harder for the trolls. They could still be dealt with, but would be less frequent. And it breaks no PA principles imo. This is a reviews site first and foremost, much more important than fly by night ratings.

Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 16:14

Again, why not to arrest everybody in the street? It would make it harder for the criminals to do their job. Wink

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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 16:15

NotAProghead wrote:

I say it again - separating reviews and ratings will not necessarily solve the problem.

Imagine, there is some album nobody cares to review (not a rare thing at all), but a bunch of "blue meanies" gives it their 1-star ratings. And what?

While proposed feature makes the rating system more confusing and breaks (in my opinion) some fundamental PA principles.

It won't make the problem worse and that is worth the risk IMO. If the blue meanies give an album their 1-star ratings then so what? They're doing that now and we cannot stop them. We can always delete the abusing ratings if the disparity between rating-only and review-only averages is too great.

I don't see what principles are being broken - expecting people to post something on the forum breaks PA principles because it mean that they have to be able to post in English and that's not only against the ethos behind having ratings-only, it is unfair on people who cannot write in English.

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What?

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 16:17

NotAProghead wrote:

Again, why not to arrest everybody in the street? It would make it harder for the criminals to do their job. Wink

We should only arrest the drama queens...

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What?

Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 16:18

Is this perhaps something best discussed elsewhere, or is it in PA's interest to be as transparent about the matter as possible?
I am not being sarcastic - this is a genuine question.

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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 17:06

Good news guys

Hi Iván,

Because of all the developments on PA Erik decided to return. I think that is good news. Some other members of PA also adviced Erik to return.

Could you take care of it?

Erik likes to thank you again for all your help. You are a true friend.

Erik isn't able to answer you himself, because he has no internet connection at the moment.

All the best,

Dorinde

I'll do it ASAP

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Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 17:09

Dean wrote:

With or without separation you and other admins have to have guns always loaded. Smile

And what's the use of separation?

We have now a rating system, where ratings and reviews without ratings made by collabs and non-collabs have different weights. Is it good or bad, but we used to live with it. It's not completely democratic, but it sums up opinions.

Why separated system will be better?

Dean wrote:

I don't see what principles are being broken - expecting people to post something on the forum breaks PA principles because it mean that they have to be able to post in English and that's not only against the ethos behind having ratings-only, it is unfair on people who cannot write in English.

I have to agree, saying "breaking principles" was too much. You're right.

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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 19:06

NotAProghead wrote:

Dean wrote:

With or without separation you and other admins have to have guns always loaded. Smile

We (what am I saying? I'm the Admin who does this year after year) I will not have to load my gun quite so often. I've said this before - I'm lazy, the less work I have to do around here the more will get done. With the two methods seperated we will be able to tell when abuse is occuring a lot sooner because the two averages will start to diverge quicker when abuse is happening.

NotAProghead wrote:

And what's the use of separation?

The level of abuse that can occur in review-only chart/averages will be much less - it will be a fairer representation of the album.

NotAProghead wrote:

We have now a rating system, where ratings and reviews without ratings made by collabs and non-collabs have different weights.

We could do without weightings, or at least have a more representative weighting system - at the moment we encourage abuse of the rating-only system because we have weighting and we have weighting because abuse happens - it's Catch 21¾ + ¼.

With two seperate charts the weighting becomes a reward for collaborating rather than a punishment for abuse.

NotAProghead wrote:

Is it good or bad, but we used to live with it. It's not completely democratic, but it sums up opinions.

But it doesn't sum up opinion at all. Why is the yearly chart is not the same as the Collabs Top Albums list? - surely if the yearly chart was a fair and democratic sumation of opinion then the two lists would be very similar, afterall most of the reviews are written by the same collabs who vote in the Collabs Top Album list. Is our opinion really so far out of whack with the opinions of the casual visitor?

NotAProghead wrote:

Why separated system will be better?

They won't be worse and they won't be the same, ergo they will be better. Simples.

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What?

Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 19:17

Dean wrote:

Atavachron wrote:

The only response I got the next day is: "Will do right now. Done. Sorry about that.

So it took you a few tries but you finally got results and received a very thoughtful email back from M@x apologizing and immediately fixing the problem. I'd be pleased.

David, Eric asked for his band to be removed from the PA, and that's what Max did - that's not fixing the problem.

Maybe, but his request was fulfilled with an apology.

Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 19:27

I would abolish ratings only.

Simples(er).

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https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 19:40

OK. Life Line Project is back.

Thanks Dean for the info.

Iván

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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 19:40

Epignosis wrote:

I would abolish ratings only.

Simples(er).

Second!

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 19:41

Epignosis wrote:

I would abolish ratings only.

Simples(er).

I been a supporter of this radical option, but M@X wants them

So Dean's solution is the best IMO

Iván

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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 20:04

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

I would abolish ratings only.

Simples(er).

I been a supporter of this radical option, but M@X wants them

So Dean's solution is the best IMO

Iván

Indeed. And lets not forget this is the internet, people. Most of it is in English (or at least the biggest chunk of it) and it is the only lingua franca we have left. So, in order to participate on the international stuff you will need English. I've never agreed with this restriction here in PA and I do believe it's a reflex from the Quebecois origins of many of PAs founders.

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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 20:07

Speaking of ratings without reviews, would Dean or some other friendly admin mind removing any ratings without reviews done by me, when you are not too busy? They are all unintentional and a product of errant mouseclicks and I find it extremely frustrating that I cannot undo them myself.

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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 20:25

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

I would abolish ratings only.

Simples(er).

I been a supporter of this radical option, but M@X wants them

So Dean's solution is the best IMO

Iván

Who is this M@X you speak of? Confused

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https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays

Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 20:29

Epignosis wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

I would abolish ratings only.Simples(er).

I been a supporter of this radical option, but M@X wants them

So Dean's solution is the best IMO

Iván

Who is this M@X you speak of? Confused

This one :

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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 20:38

Seriously, eliminate ratings only.

The "I can't speak English" facilitation argument has always been weak to me.

If this were a Spanish prog rock site, I would do my best to translate my reviews. I wouldn't waste my time with a rating when a review counts as ten or twenty times.

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Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 20:59

So you write a review for the points it counts for?

Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 21:04

timothy leary wrote:

So you write a review for the points it counts for?

Getting points is the only way to win the game. How many points do you have? I bet I am beating you.

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Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 21:06

Did not realize it was a game. You are winning cuz i am not playing.

Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 21:19

timothy leary wrote:

Did not realize it was a game. You are winning cuz i am not playing.

Yes! I win! Big smile

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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 21:26

timothy leary wrote:

So you write a review for the points it counts for?

All my reviews count the same. Wink

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Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 21:33

Not really an answer but you do write good reviews. Just wondering, some weighted reviews are hardly worth the extra points. Yours at least are worth the extra weight.

Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 21:50

thellama73 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

I would abolish ratings only.

Simples(er).

Second!

Thirded from my part, I hope this possibly futile and here off-topic issue would have it's own discussion.
Separation could be the first stage of eliminating the ratings, and later introducing capability to do a over 200 word review without rating.

I understand why M@x could have opinion for reviews, as they give faster some sort of uncohesion for the albums (hey this is a masterpiece, uh this one with neat covers is only for fans duh), but I personally think a well written essay about the record gives more credit to both the album and and the page promoting it.

However this is a fine place even as it is, but wihtout force majeur demands I hope it is ok to toss around ideas of people's personal future enhancement ideas possibly never happening? Smile

Great that the thread also served it's purpose and the person left is coming back Party

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 22:01

Epignosis wrote:

Seriously, eliminate ratings only.

The "I can't speak English" facilitation argument has always been weak to me.

If this were a Spanish prog rock site, I would do my best to translate my reviews. I wouldn't waste my time with a rating when a review counts as ten or twenty times.

I'm a Spanish speaker, it's hard for me to write in English, I have to use dictionary and synonym dictionary, plus wrrite it in word to avoid typos as possible,

timothy leary wrote:

So you write a review for the points it counts for?

No, I write a review because it's the only useful way to act.

When I see a 5 or 1 stars rating I don't even know if the guy ever heard the album, or why he/she, likes/hates the album.

A review, even the worst helps me, if it's good I have an idea of the album, if I read a bad one, I know not to trust on it.

Iván

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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 22:06

timothy leary wrote:

Not really an answer but you do write good reviews. Just wondering, some weighted reviews are hardly worth the extra points. Yours at least are worth the extra weight.

Your question was an honest one though.

I write reviews because I like music and I like writing. But if there is a collective "number" applied to an album, I would want to have as much "clout" as possible.

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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 22:08

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

I'm a Spanish speaker, it's hard for me to write in English, I have to use dictionary and synonym dictionary, plus wrrite it in word to avoid typos as possible,

Yet here you are, a special collaborator.

If a person has something to say about an album, 100 words in English isn't hard to put together.

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https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 12 2012 at 22:12

Epignosis wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

I'm a Spanish speaker, it's hard for me to write in English, I have to use dictionary and synonym dictionary, plus wrrite it in word to avoid typos as possible,

Yet here you are, a special collaborator.

If a person has something to say about an album, 100 words in English isn't hard to put together.

That's my point, it's harder, but it's worth.

I never rate an album without a review, except with this absurd system with whichyou can rate by accident, and asked Dean or Angelo to delete this ones.

Iván

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Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: November 13 2012 at 00:15

Epignosis wrote:

If a person has something to say about an album, 100 words in English isn't hard to put together.

Who needs these 100 words about albums already reviewed to death? Confused

I hope M@X is too busy to implement new features.

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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)

Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: November 13 2012 at 02:59

Eetu Pellonpää wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

I would abolish ratings only.

Simples(er).

Second!

Great that the thread also served it's purpose and the person left is coming back Party

Fourded.

I have no confidence in ratings only.

Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: November 13 2012 at 04:08

i think if we took a vote we would be surprised at the amount of people around here wo are sick to the back teeth with ratings only. They are hard to remove if mistakenly clicked and really I could go off half cocked if i wanted and rate all the albums of Gnaw My Tongue 1 star if I felt the urge as I know I hate them without listening cos they are very dark black evil stuff, just look at those disgusting album covers. However I will never do that as its not fair. I just stay away from them as theres plenty of albums I WANT to hear. Same as if i was a fan boy I just give 5 star ratings to everything from Atomic Rooster Rush, Genesis, ELP, Hawkwind or King Crimson, but noone will ever know why I think they are worth 5 stars and no one will question it. Writing a review at least gives some creedence why the rating was deserved and it stops trolls who just want a quick fix to see our reactions. If they were forced to review they would perhaps give up, or if ratings had zero effect they would perhaps give up.

Their motive is simple - stir us up into taking action after we get upset at their behaviour. We feed the trolls with threads like this but what else can we do?

Ratings only with zero effect is the only option if we dont want to look like our ratings system cant be trusted. It can be trusted if pple can read our reviews and see for themselves. Reviews at least spark interest in checking out the album for ourselves, Ratings only is just a pain in the rear end.

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Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: November 13 2012 at 05:01

^It´s Gnaw Their Tongues...and you are right, it´s dark and evil stuff alright Headbanger

. What you forgot to mention is how brilliantly well composed it is

. But thanks for not giving 1 star ratings to something you obviously despise for all the wrong reasons.

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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: November 13 2012 at 05:15

Scott, if are supposed to rate "EVIL" bands with 1 star, why not start with the satanic ones, like Dodheimsgard and Deathspell Omega?

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Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: November 13 2012 at 05:52

^Caio! The point is that Scott is not giving 1 star ratings to artists that he knows beforehand that he won´t like. And yeah I question his reasons for not liking artists like that, but that was more a provocation on my part because I felt provoked by his description of an artist that I greatly respect.

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