Print Page | Close Window

Liberals Vs. Conservatives

Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Topics not related to music
Forum Name: General Polls
Forum Description: Create polls on topics not related to music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=88687
Printed Date: November 25 2024 at 19:54
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Liberals Vs. Conservatives
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Subject: Liberals Vs. Conservatives
Date Posted: July 29 2012 at 18:23
Have fun:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201003/why-liberals-are-more-intelligent-conservatives" rel="nofollow - http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201003/why-liberals-are-more-intelligent-conservatives

It is difficult to define a whole school of political ideology precisely, but one may reasonably define liberalism (as opposed to conservatism) in the contemporary United States as the genuine concern for the welfare of genetically unrelated others and the willingness to contribute larger proportions of private resources for the welfare of such others.  In the modern political and economic context, this willingness usually translates into paying higher proportions of individual incomes in taxes toward the http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/politics" rel="nofollow - government and its social welfare programs.  Liberals usually support such social welfare programs and higher taxes to finance them, and conservatives usually oppose them.

Defined as such, liberalism is evolutionarily novel.  Humans (like other species) are evolutionarily designed to be http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/altruism" rel="nofollow - altruistic toward their genetic kin, their friends and allies, and members of their deme (a group of intermarrying individuals) or ethnic group.  They are not designed to be altruistic toward an indefinite number of complete strangers whom they are not likely ever to meet or interact with.  This is largely because our ancestors lived in a small band of 50-150 genetically related individuals, and large cities and nations with thousands and millions of people are themselves evolutionarily novel.

The examination of the 10-volume compendium The Encyclopedia of World Cultures, which describes all human cultures known to anthropology (more than 1,500) in great detail, as well as extensive primary ethnographies of traditional societies, reveals that liberalism as defined above is absent in these traditional cultures.  While sharing of resources, especially food, is quite common and often mandatory among hunter-gatherer tribes, and while trade with neighboring tribes often takes place, there is no evidence that people in contemporary hunter-gatherer bands freely share resources with members of other tribes.

Because all members of a hunter-gatherer tribe are genetic kin or at the very least friends and allies for life, sharing resources among them does not qualify as an expression of liberalism as defined above.  Given its absence in the contemporary hunter-gatherer tribes, which are often used as modern-day analogs of our ancestral life, it may be reasonable to infer that sharing of resources with total strangers that one has never met or is not likely ever to meet – that is, liberalism – was not part of our ancestral life.  Liberalism may therefore be evolutionarily novel, and http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201003/the-hypothesis" rel="nofollow - the Hypothesis would predict that more intelligent individuals are more likely than less intelligent individuals to espouse liberalism as a value.

Analyses of large representative samples, from both the United States and the United Kingdom, confirm this prediction.  In both countries, more intelligent children are more likely to grow up to be liberals than less intelligent children.  For example, among the American sample, those who identify themselves as “very liberal” in early adulthood have a mean http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/child-development" rel="nofollow - childhood IQ of 106.4, whereas those who identify themselves as “very conservative” in early adulthood have a mean childhood IQ of 94.8.

Political ideology

Even though past studies show that women are more liberal than men, and blacks are more liberal than whites, the effect of childhood http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/intelligence" rel="nofollow - intelligence on adult political ideology is twice as large as the effect of either http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/sex" rel="nofollow - sex or race.  So it appears that, as http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201003/the-hypothesis" rel="nofollow - the Hypothesis predicts, more intelligent individuals are more likely to espouse the value of liberalism than less intelligent individuals, possibly because liberalism is evolutionarily novel and conservatism is evolutionarily familiar.

The primary means that citizens of capitalist democracies contribute their private resources for the welfare of the genetically unrelated others is paying taxes to the government for its social welfare programs.  The fact that conservatives have been shown to give more money to charities than liberals is not inconsistent with the prediction from http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201003/the-hypothesis" rel="nofollow - the Hypothesis ; in fact, it supports the prediction.  Individuals can normally choose and select the beneficiaries of their charity donations.  For example, they can choose to give money to the victims of the earthquake in Haiti, because they want to help them, but not to give money to the victims of the earthquake in Chile, because they don’t want to help them.  In contrast, citizens do not have any control over whom the money they pay in taxes benefit.  They cannot individually choose to pay taxes to fund Medicare, because they want to help elderly white people, but not AFDC, because they don’t want to help poor black single mothers.  This may precisely be why conservatives choose to give more money to individual charities of their choice while opposing higher taxes.

Incidentally, this finding substantiates one of the persistent complaints among conservatives.  Conservatives often complain that liberals control the media or the show business or the academia or some other social institutions.  http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201003/the-hypothesis" rel="nofollow - the Hypothesis explains why conservatives are correct in their complaints.  Liberals do control the media, or the show business, or the academia, among other institutions, because, apart from a few areas in life (such as business) where countervailing circumstances may prevail, liberals control all institutions.  They control the institutions because liberals are on average more intelligent than conservatives and thus they are more likely to attain the highest status in any area of (evolutionarily novel) modern life.



-------------
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...




Replies:
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 29 2012 at 18:29

“If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.” - Winston Churchill



-------------
What?


Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: July 29 2012 at 18:42
/\ LOL

-------------
http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow">

The greatest record label of all time!


Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 29 2012 at 18:56
I don't know.  Which group relies on sweeping generalizations?

-------------
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays


Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: July 29 2012 at 19:02
^ Both


Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 29 2012 at 19:04
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

^ Both


Exactly.  Approve



-------------
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays


Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: July 29 2012 at 19:05
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

^ Both


Exactly.  Approve

 
Clap


-------------
http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow">

The greatest record label of all time!


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 29 2012 at 19:54
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

“If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.” - Winston Churchill


That's a cool quote and you all know where I'm at.


-------------
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 29 2012 at 20:04
This is a ridiculously trollish poll even for you Slarti. What's next, are whites more intelligent than blacks?

-------------


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 29 2012 at 20:26
Of course not; more annoying maybe, but not more intelligent.   Seems to me there are 'classes' of politics, with people of all ignorances, misinformations, and emotional reactionism participating in all the political parties.





Posted By: zappaholic
Date Posted: July 29 2012 at 20:43





-------------
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken


Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: July 29 2012 at 21:19
Liberals, because they have gone to college and experienced culture and opinions like how Africa is poor because America.

-------------
http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 29 2012 at 22:27
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

This is a ridiculously trollish poll even for you Slarti. What's next, are whites more intelligent than blacks?

Well, that's just not the kind of poll I would make because it would be racist.  I put up the poll and quoted probably too much from the article, so feel free to knock down the points and made and post a racist poll if you are so inclined.  But maybe as a spoiled little rich kid you aren't up to it....


-------------
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 29 2012 at 22:30
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

This is a ridiculously trollish poll even for you Slarti. What's next, are whites more intelligent than blacks?

Well, that's just not the kind of poll I would make because it would be racist.  I put up the poll and quoted probably too much from the article, so feel free to knock down the points and made and post a racist poll if you are so inclined.


I am not so inclined. I don't have much interest in taking the bait for your attempted flame war either. The only thing I'll say is that IQ does not measure intelligence. It measures how good you are at taking IQ tests.


-------------


Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: July 29 2012 at 22:36
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

This is a ridiculously trollish poll even for you Slarti. What's next, are whites more intelligent than blacks?

Well, that's just not the kind of poll I would make because it would be racist.  I put up the poll and quoted probably too much from the article, so feel free to knock down the points and made and post a racist poll if you are so inclined.  But maybe as a spoiled little rich kid you aren't up to it....



Seriously Brian?   Did you really just say that?



Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: July 29 2012 at 22:38
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

This is a ridiculously trollish poll even for you Slarti. What's next, are whites more intelligent than blacks?

Well, that's just not the kind of poll I would make because it would be racist.  I put up the poll and quoted probably too much from the article, so feel free to knock down the points and made and post a racist poll if you are so inclined.  But maybe as a spoiled little rich kid you aren't up to it....



Seriously Brian?   Did you really just say that?


It has a deep subtext only diehard Liberals would understand.


-------------
http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!


Posted By: Anthony H.
Date Posted: July 29 2012 at 23:11
Conservatives are less politically intelligent, yes. But less intelligent overall? That would be an absurd generalization. There are different forms of intelligence that manifest themselves in very different ways.

-------------


Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 29 2012 at 23:41
Brian the only impression one could get from some of your comments in this poll is that, regardless of your creed, you are not that intelligent.

-------------


Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: July 30 2012 at 00:08
take the bait



Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: July 30 2012 at 00:10
The poll does not include an option for those of us not stupid enough to be pigeon-holed. A proper application of ethics requires consideration from both points of view. Thus the bifurcation of politics along these lines is inherently flawed and only serves to divide and conquer for the benefit of the ruling class. And I question the intelligence of anybody who feels that either political perspective is in any way represented by those within the U.S. government. 

-------------
https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">
https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp


Posted By: BassoonAng
Date Posted: July 30 2012 at 01:12
I'd tend to define myself as a libertarian, though I abstain from voting because I don't have the patience nor interest to inform myself.  I'm not sure which one of these utterly weak candidates will shell out the best future for me, but I will not have a blindly-thrown ballot on my conscience.

-------------



Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: July 30 2012 at 12:50
In France, these last 5 years, we had several living proofs that the French conservative politicians are, indeed, less intelligent than the French liberal/progressive politicians.

But I'm not sure it could apply to the voting citizens.

Yet, thinking about it and having in mind some "incidents", I'm re-considering that opinion...


Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 30 2012 at 13:06
What I find telling is the lack of imagination or empathy involved in reasoning that the only reason someone could disagree with you politically is due to a deficient brain.

-------------


Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: July 30 2012 at 13:16
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

What I find telling is the lack of imagination or empathy involved in reasoning that the only reason someone could disagree with you politically is due to a deficient brain.


But it's the only logical explanation! Shocked


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 30 2012 at 13:18
Some methodological issues:

1) Biased definitions
2) Use of I.Q. as a metric for intelligence. The study shows nothing about intelligence. It shows a correlation with I.Q.
3) Lack of any attempt to control for confounding variables. Do wealthier people identify as liberal more than conservative? Do wealthier people have better access to education?

Studies like this are complete jokes done to grab headlines and burn through research grants.


-------------
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 30 2012 at 13:19
Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

In France, these last 5 years, we had several living proofs that the French conservative politicians are, indeed, less intelligent than the French liberal/progressive politicians.

But I'm not sure it could apply to the voting citizens.

Yet, thinking about it and having in mind some "incidents", I'm re-considering that opinion...


12 days ago I saw proof that the moon is never illuminated.


-------------
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: July 30 2012 at 13:21
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

In France, these last 5 years, we had several living proofs that the French conservative politicians are, indeed, less intelligent than the French liberal/progressive politicians.

But I'm not sure it could apply to the voting citizens.

Yet, thinking about it and having in mind some "incidents", I'm re-considering that opinion...


12 days ago I saw proof that the moon is never illuminated.


Well, if you're looking where the moon never shines...


Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 30 2012 at 13:38
^ I think that was exactly his point.

-------------


Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: July 30 2012 at 13:40
Why isn't there a choice for "I dislike it when people side with either side of political spectrum"

-------------
http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/



wtf


Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: July 30 2012 at 13:41
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

^ I think that was exactly his point.


Could you please reassure me: you understood my joke, didn't you?


Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 30 2012 at 13:57
It didn't make me laugh, if that's what you mean.

-------------


Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: July 30 2012 at 14:08
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

It didn't make me laugh, if that's what you mean.


Big smile LOL
LOL


Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 30 2012 at 15:53
It is said you can prove anything you want with stats, if you know how to interpret and present them. Do we know what the political orientation of Psychology Today is?? Just a thought.

In my experience, people who would call themselves 'liberal' do seem to me to be more intelligent, certainly more articulate and more capable of empathy. But it's all generalisation really. My father used to mix in 'conservative circles' which were comprised mostly of very educated and intelligent people, who always seemed to be doing something benevolent. But, for years there were large swathes of the UK population, who were die hard conservatives, and those of my acquaintance seemed barely able to construct a sentence.



-------------
Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!


Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: July 30 2012 at 16:14
Boardstrokes, probably.
 
 
Tongue


-------------
Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.


Posted By: AlexDOM
Date Posted: July 30 2012 at 18:58
You didn't build that...


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 30 2012 at 19:05
Here's the whole thing when it comes to Liberal v. Conservative.  I wasn't born into really poor family.  I wasn't born into a really wealthy family.  But at least I have empathy for the least fortunate amongst us.  I am totally not getting this from people who identify themselves with conservative or libertarian.  Rmoney is the embodiment of that.

-------------
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: July 30 2012 at 19:28
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Here's the whole thing when it comes to Liberal v. Conservative.  I wasn't born into really poor family.  I wasn't born into a really wealthy family.  But at least I have empathy for the least fortunate amongst us.  I am totally not getting this from people who identify themselves with conservative or libertarian.  Rmoney is the embodiment of that.

Conservatives and libertarians want to help the poor in a different way that they see as more effective, namely, the elimination of excessive taxes and regulation in order that the economy, being more free, may thrive more and benefit all, poor and rich alike.  There are regulations that are necessary to prevent the oppression of the poor by corporations, but the laws we have now do nothing but regulate companies into the ground and create a culture of dependency among the poor.  It's business, after all, that creates jobs for the poor, which gives them money to live and save and hopefully eventually climb out of their poverty.  If the government were to operate on the principles of freedom and free markets (which the country was built upon), it would give many poor people the chance to get jobs and to support themselves and their families instead of relying upon government aid.  The lazy people who don't want to work and rely upon the government for their livelihood would reap the due rewards of their actions, and the remaining number who genuinely are stuck and can't dig themselves out of poverty no matter how hard they work could be helped by charity and, if necessary, by a limited, selective aid program by state and city governments.

The only thing that this redistribution of wealth does for the American poor is to train them to be dependent on the government; it doesn't help them escape poverty, it just makes them think that they couldn't survive without their big daddy government that provides them with food, housing, and education.  Meanwhile, because of over-taxation, large and small business owners can't provide the poor with jobs anymore.  The idea that the government should take some people's money and give it to others is essentially a socialist principle, and anyone with a basic knowledge of history can see how socialism has worked out for nations in the past.


-------------
I love dogs, I've always loved dogs


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 30 2012 at 21:07
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Here's the whole thing when it comes to Liberal v. Conservative.  I wasn't born into really poor family.  I wasn't born into a really wealthy family.  But at least I have empathy for the least fortunate amongst us.  I am totally not getting this from people who identify themselves with conservative or libertarian.  Rmoney is the embodiment of that.


Probably because you're closed minded and parade around the caricature boogeyman that you want to see in what you view as an opposing ideology.

You would have no intentionally do so to filter the overtones out of what I say.


-------------
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 30 2012 at 21:07
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Here's the whole thing when it comes to Liberal v. Conservative.  I wasn't born into really poor family.  I wasn't born into a really wealthy family.  But at least I have empathy for the least fortunate amongst us.  I am totally not getting this from people who identify themselves with conservative or libertarian.  Rmoney is the embodiment of that.


We ARE the less fortunate.  We are a family of five living on a teacher's salary.  I pay taxes.  I am a libertarian.  We go to church and conduct ministries for those who need help.  We serve because we don't have money. 

Tonight we have a homeless man in our house.  Stern Smile


-------------
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays


Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 30 2012 at 22:10
The problem is that Slarti can't tell the difference between compassion and coercion. If you're not forcibly taking money from people, you must have a heart of ice!

-------------


Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 30 2012 at 22:56
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Here's the whole thing when it comes to Liberal v. Conservative.  I wasn't born into really poor family.  I wasn't born into a really wealthy family.  But at least I have empathy for the least fortunate amongst us.  I am totally not getting this from people who identify themselves with conservative or libertarian.  Rmoney is the embodiment of that.
What have you done for others Slarti (other than taking the easy way out and paying and supporting taxes)? 

"Empathy" is the new stupid sacred word of liberals. They think having "empathy" is a substitute for action. For real action. 

Your head is as thick as a brick. You have never managed to get into it the notion that most of the people here that you brand as the spoiled rich conservatives come from quite diffirent backgrounds. Even from other countries, countries where what you in your comfy liberal bed call "poor" would be considered wealthy. 

Most liberals like you can afford to be so high minded and let others do the job. I'm quite sure most of the people you hate (because you DO hate) are just as poor or poorer than the typical welfare recipient that you want to take care of from cradle to grave with other people's money (not yours of course). 

Anyway, at least in this website, it's quite clear from years of being here that the most intelligent people tend to be on the side you usually don't support. Others like you can afford to act like pre-teens, seeing everything black or white, and agreeing with all the popular notions, and seem "enlightened". Oh yes, it takes courage and intelligence to try and understand and oppose things like minimum wages or cradle-to-grave welfare. It's much easier and friend-making to say "social justice"! "minimum wage has to be raised!", "we need a safety net!" than saying the opposite. It doesn't really take much intelligence to repeat those ideas. A trained monkey can. But to try and understand things and read and study and see for yourself why certain things would probably be better FOR EVERYBODY if done in a different way takes work, not the lazy self-gratifying ease of  just always siding with what sounds popular and humane, even if it actually is not. 


-------------


Posted By: refugee
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 07:14
Voted "no" though I consider myself a liberal. I know too many intelligent "conservatives" (though my conservative friends would probably be considered quite liberal by American standards). And where do we put Arnold?

-------------
He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
(Peter Hammill)


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 09:05
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

[/QUO

Dude I'm not going to say anything about those remarks.  You are making my point.


-------------
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 09:08
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:


Dude I'm not going to say anything about those remarks.  You are making my point.
How? Explain, explain something once. 

-------------


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 09:11
For caring so much about poor people, he refuses to criticize a president that bombs a lot of them. 

-------------
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 09:17
I would like to know if there's anybody here who can actually say "im a liberal" or "I'm a conservative" and say they agree with 100% of the tenets of that... ideology? There's no tenets and no 100% because the terms are so loosely defined and people can (yes, incredibly, they can Slart) agree with some ideas usually painted as belonging to one group and also with another set of ideas usually depicted as belonging to another group. This entire "us vs them" mentality is so negative but quite good for those above. Those whom Slart doesn't like, in theory. 

-------------


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 10:40
Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

The poll does not include an option for those of us not stupid enough to be pigeon-holed. A proper application of ethics requires consideration from both points of view. Thus the bifurcation of politics along these lines is inherently flawed and only serves to divide and conquer for the benefit of the ruling class. And I question the intelligence of anybody who feels that either political perspective is in any way represented by those within the U.S. government. 

I'm with this guy and voted no in the poll. 

Just a few years ago (when I was more like that comfy liberal The T describes) I would have voted yes





Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 10:52
I honestly can't explain why some people born into privilege have a pathological hatred for those that weren't.

Lord I was born a ramblin' man. Embarrassed


-------------
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 11:19
What privilege Slarti what privilege? Explain how do you know that I or other conservatives were "born in privilege"! Explain! I understand you are full of resentment about people born in privilege (the entire thing warrants another discussion) but that doesn't constitute evidence as to why you think all people that don't think like you were born that way. 

And, again, being "born in privilege" doesn't necessarily make you a specific type of person just as much as being born in poverty doesn't necessarily make you a thief or a bum. 

By the way, most of your enlightened "liberals" are college students. Don;t you think most of them were born in privilege? It's easy to be so generous with other people's money and devote so much time to "deep thinking" when it is Daddy who paid for your entire education. 


-------------


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 11:26
So you want to argue spectrum?  I'd just like for people who were fortunate to be born into a wealthy family to have a little sympathy for those weren't.  Again, I don't see much of that.  It's hard to pull yourself by your bootstraps when you don't have them.

On a side note, what's on the ballot for you today in the fla?


-------------
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 11:34
I can agree with that but not with painting all people who fit one characteristic with the same brush in every other aspect. I'm sure many people born in privilege are heartless b*****ds but many are not. The same: many people born in poverty are probably heartless resentful b*****ds but many are not. 

FL elections are a fail. Nobody knows what one's voting for. 


-------------


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 11:36

Welcome to US democracy. LOL
We have this T-Spooge thing going on.  I just don't think it's worth while to dump a bunch of money through a 1% sales tax into a bunch of well connected people.  Yeah, it's going to fix everything, or so the TV ads say.  They told us the GA 400 toll was going to end once it paid for the construction.  They lied. Angry



-------------
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 11:40
Once there is a toll or tax for anything, it's never going away.

-------------


Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 11:42
We used to have a window tax.  I think they got rid of that.

-------------
Help me I'm falling!


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 11:47
I'm not inherently opposed to taxes as long as they applied for the common good.

-------------
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 11:50
The common good of the bureaucracy in many instances, sadly. 

-------------


Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 11:55
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

If you're not forcibly taking money from people, you must have a heart of ice!


Now, I feel empathy for robbers.



Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 12:02
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

The common good of the bureaucracy in many instances, sadly. 

Try plutocracy and you have it right for the state of Georgia.


-------------
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 12:08
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

The common good of the bureaucracy in many instances, sadly. 

Try plutocracy and you have it right for the state of Georgia.


I didn't know you were following news from the Caucasian countries.


Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 12:10
Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

The common good of the bureaucracy in many instances, sadly. 

Try plutocracy and you have it right for the state of Georgia.


I didn't know you were following news from the Caucasian countries.
I'm sure both Georgias will be quite similar in a not so distant future. 

-------------


Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 12:20
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

The common good of the bureaucracy in many instances, sadly. 

Try plutocracy and you have it right for the state of Georgia.


I didn't know you were following news from the Caucasian countries.
I'm sure both Georgias will be quite similar in a not so distant future. 


You mean that the American Georgie will try to invade and conquer its neighbours? Could be fun.


Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 12:21
Having grown up in Georgia and having family there, I know about the 1% sales tax thing. It is supposedly being used for public transportation, which I think Atlanta desperately needs, but if you read the fine print it says that the tax will come now, and the infrastructure will come at some, undefined point in the future. There is no specific proposal for what to do with the money.

It's another example of stealing your money by lying to you about what it will be used for.


-------------


Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 12:23
Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

The common good of the bureaucracy in many instances, sadly. 

Try plutocracy and you have it right for the state of Georgia.


I didn't know you were following news from the Caucasian countries.
I'm sure both Georgias will be quite similar in a not so distant future. 


You mean that the American Georgie will try to invade and conquer its neighbours? Could be fun.
No I mean eventually it will turn quite bureaucratic and dictatorial. 

-------------


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 12:31
Building a road a $1 at a time isn't very cost effective.

-------------
What?


Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 12:34
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

The common good of the bureaucracy in many instances, sadly. 

Try plutocracy and you have it right for the state of Georgia.


I didn't know you were following news from the Caucasian countries.
I'm sure both Georgias will be quite similar in a not so distant future. 


You mean that the American Georgie will try to invade and conquer its neighbours? Could be fun.
No I mean eventually it will turn quite bureaucratic and dictatorial. 


But I thought America was already bureaucratic? You just need to experiment dictatorship.


Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 12:35
Slarti's argument makes no sense. Conservatives are less intelligent because they are rich and lack empathy for the poor. Setting aside the obvious problems with this logic (what does empathy have to do with intelligence?) there's the fact that MOST RICH PEOPLE ARE LIBERAL! Ted Turner, George Soros, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, John Kerry, the Kennedys for crying out loud. Movie Stars, musicians, authors and heiresses all have a huge majority of liberals in their number. How then, does the argument that conservatives are richness leads to lack of empathy make any sense whatsoever? I would appreciate a serious response.

-------------


Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 12:37
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Building a road a $1 at a time isn't very cost effective.


And if you believe that they will actually use the money for what they say they will despite there being no provision in the bills that requires this, then I have a bridge to sell you in Florida.


-------------


Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 12:38
I suspect that empathy is a sign of intelligence.  It is one of the things that distinguishes us from animals.  I think if you had no empathy you would be less intelligent

-------------
Help me I'm falling!


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 12:41
I suspect that our brains exhibit a complexity sufficient to make statements like "x is a sign of intelligence" rather stupid. 

-------------
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 12:46
Intelligence is a sign of intelligence.


Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 12:47
The words themselves clearly define the meaning of intelligent. 
Conservative means that you stick to what works and don't shake the boat. Which can be good , in some cases.
Liberal is almost synonym with open-minded, looking constantly for new ways to improve.

That being said, recent history has shown the blur between the lines, fascist left (Putin) vs socialist right (most of Europe) , proving once and for all that politicians are mostly self-serving, egotist elitists who are in it for themselves. 
Recent history also shows the remarkable tendency to provide power to people who have so very little to offer, mostly gutless, manipulated puppets who follow whichever trend the winds decide.

Truth is, why is there no third option? a clear and concise third vision that is independent from the vagaries of failed history  is what we need. I fear that our global society still has difficulty counting to 3.

Of course, I am being dumb Ouch ConfusedSleepy


-------------
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 12:47
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Building a road a $1 at a time isn't very cost effective.


And if you believe that they will actually use the money for what they say they will despite there being no provision in the bills that requires this, then I have a bridge to sell you in Florida.
I don't believe anything, I just state that tax money cannot be spent on what it is earmarked for until you've collected enough to pay for what you intend to use it on. Calling people liars before they commit the offense is not something I'm prone to.
 
We sell useless bridges to you (and I think you'll find it in Arizona)


-------------
What?


Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 12:58
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

That being said, recent history has shown the blur between the lines, fascist left (Putin) vs socialist right (most of Europe)


Uh, I... I'm not very sure it works that way... I could understand categorizations such as "authoritarian post-communist with nationalist tendencies" for Putin. I could understand "conservative governments accepting social assistance".

But "socialist right" or "fascist left", I'm not sure politologues would agree with these "definitions".


Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 12:59
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Building a road a $1 at a time isn't very cost effective.


And if you believe that they will actually use the money for what they say they will despite there being no provision in the bills that requires this, then I have a bridge to sell you in Florida.
I don't believe anything, I just state that tax money cannot be spent on what it is earmarked for until you've collected enough to pay for what you intend to use it on. Calling people liars before they commit the offense is not something I'm prone to.
 
We sell useless bridges to you (and I think you'll find it in Arizona)
LOL


-------------
Help me I'm falling!


Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 13:02
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I suspect that our brains exhibit a complexity sufficient to make statements like "x is a sign of intelligence" rather stupid. 
 
Make it as stupid as you like. 


-------------
Help me I'm falling!


Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 13:29
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:


Liberal is almost synonym with open-minded, looking constantly for new ways to improve.


One of my favorite writers, G. K. Chesterton has a fun quote about open mindedness: "Trees have no dogmas. Turnips are singularly broad-minded."

-------------


Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 13:29
Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

That being said, recent history has shown the blur between the lines, fascist left (Putin) vs socialist right (most of Europe)


Uh, I... I'm not very sure it works that way... I could understand categorizations such as "authoritarian post-communist with nationalist tendencies" for Putin. I could understand "conservative governments accepting social assistance".

But "socialist right" or "fascist left", I'm not sure politologues would agree with these "definitions".

I am not a politologue , so frankly, I don't really worry about what they may think, as they are often even more warped that the polticians !  
I think you are too polite (or politically incorrect) as the list of examples go beyond the norm. You are just playing with words, preferring more acceptable and modern  terms for the same form of social control we have had since the Industrial revolution! 
 Is Chavez not a left-wing fascist? Is China not a socialist/capitalist state paradise? Aren't most Euro governments a left/center/right mishmash? Aren't most ex-Warsaw pact governments led by former left-wing politicians? We call them "shirt-changers" in Hungary . It goes on and on and you try to explain to me that politologues find my comments too simplistic?  I find it appalling that we are offered 2 choices that really vary only in words or colors. It has worked this way for a very long time and the end is not in sight. As long as these silly definitions exist, the truth will not change. When will there be a new way? 


-------------
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.


Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 13:43
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

That being said, recent history has shown the blur between the lines, fascist left (Putin) vs socialist right (most of Europe)


Uh, I... I'm not very sure it works that way... I could understand categorizations such as "authoritarian post-communist with nationalist tendencies" for Putin. I could understand "conservative governments accepting social assistance".

But "socialist right" or "fascist left", I'm not sure politologues would agree with these "definitions".

I am not a politologue , so frankly, I don't really worry about what they may think, as they are often even more warped that the polticians !  
I think you are too polite (or politically incorrect) as the list of examples go beyond the norm. You are just playing with words, preferring more acceptable and modern  terms for the same form of social control we have had since the Industrial revolution! 
 Is Chavez not a left-wing fascist? Is China not a socialist/capitalist state paradise? Aren't most Euro governments a left/center/right mishmash? Aren't most ex-Warsaw pact governments led by former left-wing politicians? We call them "shirt-changers" in Hungary . It goes on and on and you try to explain to me that politologues find my comments too simplistic?  I find it appalling that we are offered 2 choices that really vary only in words or colors. It has worked this way for a very long time and the end is not in sight. As long as these silly definitions exist, the truth will not change. When will there be a new way? 


Okay, I will try not to be polite:
 - Chavez is a populist;
 - China is a totalitarian government;
 - Europe is a mess;
 - Eastern Europe is a backyard.
 - Your comments are too complicated.
Satisfied?


Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 13:52
^ yes, I am , your mind is sharp as a whistle but your anger is enticing , can I vote for you? Handshake
My comments are complicated? Hmmmmm, Yes I am! 


-------------
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.


Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 14:03
Chavez is a former military man, hence a juntist , inspired by the "pink revolution" and anti-American. I guess that's what you mean by the camouflage term "populist". So was Lenin! 
China has a state capitalist government which is a communist dictatorship that loves money and profit (Marx and Engels are turning in their grave).
Europe has been a mess since time immemorial , what else is new? Half are still constitutional monarchies, the rest republics and then you have one who is both (Hungary, a republic with a crown!)
BTW, Hungary is not in Eastern Europe , its Central but still a "backyard" for both Russia and Nato.
My comments are based on the fact that only labels change, politics have barely advanced in the last 50 years. 
Please don't be angry with me, I really respect your 'modern' opinions, as they are universally accepted as the norm ! 


-------------
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.


Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 14:06
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Slarti's argument makes no sense. Conservatives are less intelligent because they are rich and lack empathy for the poor. Setting aside the obvious problems with this logic (what does empathy have to do with intelligence?) there's the fact that MOST RICH PEOPLE ARE LIBERAL! Ted Turner, George Soros, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, John Kerry, the Kennedys for crying out loud. Movie Stars, musicians, authors and heiresses all have a huge majority of liberals in their number. How then, does the argument that conservatives are richness leads to lack of empathy make any sense whatsoever? I would appreciate a serious response.

I said the same a few posts above but no answer. It's easy being liberal when you're rich or also when you like to be dependant. It's more difficult when you want to make it on your own.

Oh I forgot, nobody makes it on their own (Barack, 2012.).

-------------


Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 14:09
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Building a road a $1 at a time isn't very cost effective.
And if you believe that they will actually use the money for what they say they will despite there being no provision in the bills that requires this, then I have a bridge to sell you in Florida.
Well that 1$ will take care of about 1/19th of the hourly wage of the bureaucrat necessary to process the payroll for all bureacrats in charge of processing the neessary permits and bureaucrat regulations necessary to start planning to build the road so show me the bridge. I live in FL so no bureaucratic travel expenses needed. .

-------------


Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 14:24
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Chavez is a former military man, hence a juntist , inspired by the "pink revolution" and anti-American. I guess that's what you mean by the camouflage term "populist". So was Lenin! 
China has a state capitalist government which is a communist dictatorship that loves money and profit (Marx and Engels are turning in their grave).
Europe has been a mess since time immemorial , what else is new? Half are still constitutional monarchies, the rest republics and then you have one who is both (Hungary, a republic with a crown!)
BTW, Hungary is not in Eastern Europe , its Central but still a "backyard" for both Russia and Nato.
My comments are based on the fact that only labels change, politics have barely advanced in the last 50 years. 
Please don't be angry with me, I really respect your 'modern' opinions, as they are universally accepted as the norm ! 


I give up.
And you don't know what is anger.


Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 14:25
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Building a road a $1 at a time isn't very cost effective.
And if you believe that they will actually use the money for what they say they will despite there being no provision in the bills that requires this, then I have a bridge to sell you in Florida.
Well that 1$ will take care of about 1/19th of the hourly wage of the bureaucrat necessary to process the payroll for all bureacrats in charge of processing the neessary permits and bureaucrat regulations necessary to start planning to build the road so show me the bridge. I live in FL so no bureaucratic travel expenses needed. .


Are the bureaucrats part of the Freemason conspiracy or of the Illuminati conspiracy?


Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 14:27
You should never give up, its the essence of freedom! The defining characteristic of our new age is the unending urge to pigeon-hole, label and categorize everything, so as facilitate individual judgment. This is the modern disease! Everyone has now the right to judge anything, without any research beyond the Internet, without reading all 2000 pages of jurisprudence, without studying the facts and the reasons (Why? has become a cumbersome question, it takes too much effort and time). We have the right to judge, condemn and even execute without any repercussions (hello twitter!)

So “labeling” is the new comfort zone, slicing and dicing until its comfortable to swallow, a sickness that permeates the PA site as well, everything needs to be in a neat and accessible folder and compartmentalized!

I yearn for a world where debate encompasses empathy and research, where labels are torn away and the truth is revealed as it really is, in all its nakedly pure existence, without camouflage and deflection.  


I know what anger is, suppressing it for 56 years now, best expressed by Einstein, who stated something to the effect of " there are 2 infinites, the universe and human stupidity but I am not too sure of the first one" 



-------------
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.


Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 14:30
Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Building a road a $1 at a time isn't very cost effective.
And if you believe that they will actually use the money for what they say they will despite there being no provision in the bills that requires this, then I have a bridge to sell you in Florida.
Well that 1$ will take care of about 1/19th of the hourly wage of the bureaucrat necessary to process the payroll for all bureacrats in charge of processing the neessary permits and bureaucrat regulations necessary to start planning to build the road so show me the bridge. I live in FL so no bureaucratic travel expenses needed. .
Are the bureaucrats part of the Freemason conspiracy or of the Illuminati conspiracy?
No these are very real.

-------------


Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 15:20
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Building a road a $1 at a time isn't very cost effective.


And if you believe that they will actually use the money for what they say they will despite there being no provision in the bills that requires this, then I have a bridge to sell you in Florida.
I don't believe anything, I just state that tax money cannot be spent on what it is earmarked for until you've collected enough to pay for what you intend to use it on. Calling people liars before they commit the offense is not something I'm prone to.
 
We sell useless bridges to you (and I think you'll find it in Arizona)

I would be willing to bet the bridge in Arizona has made a ton of money

Mr. Robert I Plumer (deceased) was a real estate agent and salesperson for Mr. Robert P. McCulloch. Originally, the deserted Lake Havasu Vacant land was given to the State of Arizona by the Federal government. The federal property was an abandoned landing strip for the military. Mr. McCulloch made a deal with the State of Arizona and received the property for free with a promise to develop the land. The problem was that the real estate agents could not bring in prospective buyers because the land was in the middle of nowhere and very arid and hot. Mr. Plumer, who worked for Mr. McCulloch, learned that the 'London Bridge' was for sale. Mr. Plumer convinced Mr. McCulloch to buy the London Bridge and bring it to the area to attract potential land buyers. The initial response from Mr. McCulloch was "That's the craziest idea I have ever heard." Then, after consideration, Mr. McCulloch decided to go ahead with the purchase. Mr. Plumer then arranged with a cargo shipping company that was going to sail a newly built ship from Great Britain to the US without any cargo. Mr. Plumer said they would pay for all operating costs of the sailing, which was far less than the going rate shipping costs. The bridge arrived in pieces at the Port of Houston and then was overland transported to Lake Havasu City. After it was reconstructed as described below, new prospective land buyers were interested in coming to see the 'London Bridge' and take a tour of properties for sale. Land sales improved and Mr. McCulloch recouped all of his expenses for the purchase and shipping of the bridge. Since the cost of the land was nothing, the sale of the properties paid for the bridge and more. Mr. Robert Plumer died in 2007 in Colorado Springs, CO after a long illness."


Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 16:52
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Slarti's argument makes no sense. Conservatives are less intelligent because they are rich and lack empathy for the poor. Setting aside the obvious problems with this logic (what does empathy have to do with intelligence?) there's the fact that MOST RICH PEOPLE ARE LIBERAL! Ted Turner, George Soros, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, John Kerry, the Kennedys for crying out loud. Movie Stars, musicians, authors and heiresses all have a huge majority of liberals in their number. How then, does the argument that conservatives are richness leads to lack of empathy make any sense whatsoever? I would appreciate a serious response.




http://flowingdata.com/2010/11/01/billionaires-favorite-politicians/" rel="nofollow - http://flowingdata.com/2010/11/01/billionaires-favorite-politicians/

A sample paragraph:
"The billionaires on the Forbes 400 list have given more than $30 million to politicians and political action committees since 2006, along with millions more in soft money to politically active groups. Although Forbes 400 members give about 15% more money to Republicans than Democrats, they fund groups across the political spectrum."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonbruner/2010/10/29/billionaires-favorite-politicians/" rel="nofollow - http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonbruner/2010/10/29/billionaires-favorite-politicians/

http://www.swissfund.4t.com/custom.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.swissfund.4t.com/custom.html

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jonbruner/files/2011/09/400-donors-graphic-large.png" rel="nofollow - http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jonbruner/files/2011/09/400-donors-graphic-large.png

http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2012/05/21/count-em-30-billionaires-now-backing-romneys-super-pac/2/" rel="nofollow - http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2012/05/21/count-em-30-billionaires-now-backing-romneys-super-pac/2/









-------------
https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">
https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 17:11
^ only $30million! The exec's at UK bank Barclays http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jul/25/barclays-fundraising-mitt-romney?newsfeed=true" rel="nofollow - have alone donated £1million to Mitt Romney's campaign . Typical billionaires - they never got rich by giving money away, unlike bankers.

-------------
What?


Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 17:15
Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Slarti's argument makes no sense. Conservatives are less intelligent because they are rich and lack empathy for the poor. Setting aside the obvious problems with this logic (what does empathy have to do with intelligence?) there's the fact that MOST RICH PEOPLE ARE LIBERAL! Ted Turner, George Soros, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, John Kerry, the Kennedys for crying out loud. Movie Stars, musicians, authors and heiresses all have a huge majority of liberals in their number. How then, does the argument that conservatives are richness leads to lack of empathy make any sense whatsoever? I would appreciate a serious response.




http://flowingdata.com/2010/11/01/billionaires-favorite-politicians/" rel="nofollow - http://flowingdata.com/2010/11/01/billionaires-favorite-politicians/

A sample paragraph:
"The billionaires on the Forbes 400 list have given more than $30 million to politicians and political action committees since 2006, along with millions more in soft money to politically active groups. Although Forbes 400 members give about 15% more money to Republicans than Democrats, they fund groups across the political spectrum."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonbruner/2010/10/29/billionaires-favorite-politicians/" rel="nofollow - http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonbruner/2010/10/29/billionaires-favorite-politicians/

http://www.swissfund.4t.com/custom.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.swissfund.4t.com/custom.html

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jonbruner/files/2011/09/400-donors-graphic-large.png" rel="nofollow - http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jonbruner/files/2011/09/400-donors-graphic-large.png

http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2012/05/21/count-em-30-billionaires-now-backing-romneys-super-pac/2/" rel="nofollow - http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2012/05/21/count-em-30-billionaires-now-backing-romneys-super-pac/2/




That doesn't prove that there are more rich republicans than democrats; it could be that rich republicans just tend to be more generous in their donations to politicians.  I don't know that anyone has actual proof either way, though; it appears that rich people are more liberal because liberalism is prominent among celebrities, but there are many more wealthy people in the U.S. who most people haven't heard of.


-------------
I love dogs, I've always loved dogs


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 17:28
^ the majority of clebs weren't born rich so that's not a comparison you can make.

-------------
What?


Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 18:20
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Slarti's argument makes no sense. Conservatives are less intelligent because they are rich and lack empathy for the poor. Setting aside the obvious problems with this logic (what does empathy have to do with intelligence?) there's the fact that MOST RICH PEOPLE ARE LIBERAL! Ted Turner, George Soros, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, John Kerry, the Kennedys for crying out loud. Movie Stars, musicians, authors and heiresses all have a huge majority of liberals in their number. How then, does the argument that conservatives are richness leads to lack of empathy make any sense whatsoever? I would appreciate a serious response.




http://flowingdata.com/2010/11/01/billionaires-favorite-politicians/" rel="nofollow - http://flowingdata.com/2010/11/01/billionaires-favorite-politicians/

A sample paragraph:
"The billionaires on the Forbes 400 list have given more than $30 million to politicians and political action committees since 2006, along with millions more in soft money to politically active groups. Although Forbes 400 members give about 15% more money to Republicans than Democrats, they fund groups across the political spectrum."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonbruner/2010/10/29/billionaires-favorite-politicians/" rel="nofollow - http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonbruner/2010/10/29/billionaires-favorite-politicians/

http://www.swissfund.4t.com/custom.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.swissfund.4t.com/custom.html

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jonbruner/files/2011/09/400-donors-graphic-large.png" rel="nofollow - http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jonbruner/files/2011/09/400-donors-graphic-large.png

http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2012/05/21/count-em-30-billionaires-now-backing-romneys-super-pac/2/" rel="nofollow - http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2012/05/21/count-em-30-billionaires-now-backing-romneys-super-pac/2/




That doesn't prove that there are more rich republicans than democrats; it could be that rich republicans just tend to be more generous in their donations to politicians.  I don't know that anyone has actual proof either way, though; it appears that rich people are more liberal because liberalism is prominent among celebrities, but there are many more wealthy people in the U.S. who most people haven't heard of.


Why would you assume that the intention was to prove there are more rich republicans than democrats? If you read the data in the articles it simply proves that arguing the motivations of the ultra-rich by grabbing a few high profile names out of the air that is just plain ludicrous. The most telling is the Jon Brunner blog graphic that links contributions. The lines cross over multiple times with both conservatives and liberals amongst the ultra-rich giving to causes on the opposite side.

The only conclusion is that the ultra-rich are the ultra-rich. I would hypothesize, as pointless and untestable as it may be, that the ultra-rich benefit from a political system rife with divisiveness. They have their financial status in common with one another, which is more than they have in common with any of the rest of us, regardless of common political affiliation.


-------------
https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">
https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp


Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 19:02
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

“If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.” - Winston Churchill

 
I was a Conservative at 20 and then I grew up. I've been a card carrying Liberal Democrat for the last 25 years, so I think Churchill is totally wrong on this (as he frequently was).


-------------
A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 19:40
Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

“If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.” - Winston Churchill

 
I was a Conservative at 20 and then I grew up. I've been a card carrying Liberal Democrat for the last 25 years, so I think Churchill is totally wrong on this (as he frequently was).
I think any generalisation is totally wrong. I posted the quote because it was funny, not because it was right.

-------------
What?


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 19:41
I've been a liberal ever since I took an interest in politics and nothing can change that.  You can insult me all you want.  I'm a grown up and I can take it.

I do get peeved at the spoiled little rich kids on the forums and that ain't gonna change either.


-------------
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 19:42
All generalizations are wrong. Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

-------------


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 20:03
Empathy deals with helping a person in trouble if you can.  The rest is I've got mine and screw you.

-------------
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 20:20
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Empathy deals with helping a person in trouble if you can.  The rest is I've got mine and screw you.


Wait, I'm confused. What is that word you keep using. Em-pa-thy? It seems just like a bunch of crazy jumbled up letters to me.


-------------


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 21:04
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Empathy deals with helping a person in trouble if you can.  The rest is I've got mine and screw you.


No. That's not what empathy is at all.

empathy |ˈempəθē|
noun
the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.



-------------
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 31 2012 at 21:07
^Nice schwa.

-------------



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd. - http://www.webwiz.co.uk