Sigh
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements
Forum Name: Help us improve the site
Forum Description: Help us improve the forums, and the site as a whole
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85247
Printed Date: December 04 2024 at 10:11
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Sigh
Posted By: tamijo
Subject: Sigh
Date Posted: February 28 2012 at 05:53
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So the 100 MOST PROLIFIC REVIEW SPAMMERS (provocation intended) got the spot in the sun. While the (tiny part of a) rewiew, by the commoners, are still hidden away in the untastefull right. ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Replies:
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: February 28 2012 at 15:29
| It's a reward for being an official Progarchives Collaborator or Prog Reviwer. There has to be some perks for their hard work. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: February 28 2012 at 15:38
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^Do I sense irony? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: February 28 2012 at 15:50
It's not only 100 reviewers, it's more than 250 people. Each one of their work and contribution was recognized, rather thank complaining about irrelevant issues. Since you so eagerly love to click on those little stars and give the albums ratings only, I suggest that you next time click on "Show all reviews/ratings" link. It takes less effort than writing pathetic provocations. |
tamijo wrote:Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 28 2012 at 17:45
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100 word minimum gets you in the game if I catch your drift. And a lot of the more prolific reviewers do much more than that. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: March 04 2012 at 03:40
The 100 (not 250) MOST PROLIFIC REVIEWERS, was reinstalled on the front page,
Giving them extra motivation to write even more reviews.
But the non Collaborators reviews, are not very well promoted, they are hidden in the right side, when you check out albums, giving them little motivation to write more rewievs.
Thats all i was trying to say.
NB: I dont undenstand why sometimes it seems that ratings only, gets attacks as if it was something bad.
We got the option, its even been made easier resently, why is it a shame to use it. ?
I do write reviews (more than 100 words), but only if i think i have something to say about the album worth reading.
Sometimes i dont think i do, others have said it all, then i just rate. Later if i fell like it, i review my ratings only. ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: March 26 2012 at 20:41
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One thing almost all collaborators have in common is they did not complain about the status of collaborators and the weight of the ratings associated with their reviews prior to their status promotion. Ratings have little to say about an album outside of the context of the raters personal tastes. Once a review is written some perspective is applied. When someone writes enough thoughtful and informative reviews they may be invited into the PR/collaborator ranks. It does not mean that your ratings are bad, but they are simple and really don't tell anybody what you really feel. They are therefore given appropriate weight. Do you think there would be more motivation to write reviews if ratings carried the same weight? That's not really how incentives work. Also, ALL reviews get a spot on the front page as they are posted, regardless of member status. So there is incentive to put your thoughts into writing rather than merely applying a rating. Also also, while what you say regarding reviews by non-collabs being relegated to the right side of the screen is true for album pages, the artist page has the latest 10 reviews for that artist regardless of member status. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 27 2012 at 06:27
I started out there but after putting in a few more reviews I was promoted. Is there anyone here who hasn't been given the invite doing the same? And yeah, it doesn't matter how few you have done you do get a moment on the main page. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: March 27 2012 at 07:24
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If you write enough quality reviews and continue to do so on a regular basis, itīs very likely youīll be contacted by a member of the admin team. The admin team will either have heard about you through Collabs who have contacted them or they have noticed you themselves. And donīt worry, they know exactly whatīs going on both in the forum and in the review section on the frontpage.
...as for "regular" members who write reviews and donīt get promoted, itīs often because they donīt write very good reviews or simply because they donīt post reviews very often (or as the case often is, they stop writing reviews after a very short while). In my world there has to be a balance between writing quality reviews and posting reviews on a regular basis (if youīd like to earn the Prog Reviewer tag that is). Regular basis donīt mean you need to flood the frontpage with reviews, but a couple of well thought out reviews a month is probably a good guideline. ------------- http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - Metal Music Archives https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 27 2012 at 10:27
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Well put Jonas. ------------- The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 27 2012 at 11:40
Are you sure you want a spot in the sun? You might burn up... ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: March 28 2012 at 13:08
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Sorry to burst the soap bubble about good/bad reviews, but consider this: The debate about what is a good or a bad review has been dominating my sphere for the last month. A very silly debate in my view. So never mind the bollocks; here is the meat. (taken from my weekly newspaper feature, which was a reply to a debate in another publication + a small "celebration" of my 20 years anniversary as an album reviewer) In short; the PA's collabs and non-collabs system is all bollocks and more about grown up men (?) playing "secret societies" (for example Freemasonry) games than facts and common sense. But it is harmless fun so noone should be offended. Those offended by this harmless game the powers-that-is is playing; set up your own blog and earn money from Google or any other advertisers. Period. This message was sent from Glenview Retirement home where I am enjoying my retirement from ProgArchives. Cheers to all my hard working friends in PA !! |
Posted By: Rivertree
Date Posted: March 28 2012 at 13:30
Happy retirement!  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Rivertree" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 28 2012 at 13:51
Well, you may have a point, though probably not the one you intend. Writing-style is a separate entity to content. Of course a style can be a great writing style of high literary worth that displays a wonderful use of language and still says very little, and there I sense is where the value of a review lies, not in the ability of the author to construct exquisitely flowing prose, but to impart some information: to be informative to the reader who, (let us be very honest and very clear here), is interested in the item you purport to describe and not the flowery locution that smears from your ink-dripped pen as it traverses the pristine vellum. In essence a bad review is one that says nothing about the thing being reviewed that cannot be garnered from reading the dust-jacket or hastily written publishers' press release. Any review that can be condensed into one pertinent phrase once all the inconsequential waffle has been stripped way is a classic representation of style over substance, and that can be a test we all apply to our own writing as easily as we can apply it to those that we read.
So sure, there are no absolutes of quality, but there are prerequisites that determine whether a block of text is a review of an album or merely a description of it, and paramount of those prerequisites is a critical evaluation of the music and/or lyric contained within the album by whatever measure we chose.
I don't know. I'm not a reviewer and not at all interested in playing politics - in my time as an Admin reviewers have been chosen and appointed by two of the mildest and nicest chaps it's been my pleasure to know - the more vociferous (and militant) among us actually play no part in this aside from nodding in polite agreement at the thoughts of these sagely gnomes and going along with whatever and whoever they suggest. But then, since this is done behind closed doors there is no way that you would know this so fell free to spin your own conspiracy theories, it matters little to me or anyone else, people come and people go but the art school dance goes on forever.
But as you say, if you don't like the system you are free to go forth and start your own blog - post a link here and we'll even pass some trade your way because a blog that no one reads is lonely thing to behold. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 28 2012 at 14:13
Yep. That was totally uncalled for. I mean, one thing is to openly describe the whole objectivity vs. subjectivity conundrum, which we all should have learned by now - ok, bravo I can dig it. Another thing entirely is to come back from retirement swinging like a bar brawler that don't particularly like the games we are playing. Well nothing has really changed since you left - or since you started out frequenting the site, so why did you even bother to begin with? Yeah happy retirement. ------------- The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: March 28 2012 at 14:34
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Yes, but if you want to have a reasonable transparent system, issue a reviewers guideline like everyone else is doing. Just copy and paste from other websides and give it some PA colours. That should make these four times a year debates absolete. In any case; PA's system is harmless and all artists are happy about it. But someone started this thread and I replied with some sober thoughts. Mostly to kill these debates (see over) once and for all. And yes; everyone disagreeing with the collabs/non-collabs system is free to set up their own blogs. Absolute the way to go if chasing collabs status is the main motivation here.
When did I say that I did not like the games PA are playing ? I have never said that. You are lying about me, young dane. Go and wash your fingers in chlorine and say Hail Haggis 50 times. Twice. Btw. I retired because of time constraints and not being able to contribute any quality anymore. Not because of any form of fall outs (besides of with the software). And my retirement was and is a wrench for me. Not made better by your cheap lies, young dane.
Thanx for that ! Good retirement to you too when that time comes. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 28 2012 at 14:40
What? Like this one: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13152" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13152 ?
Or do you mean like this one: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13080" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13080 ?
Or did you have something else in mind?
No, I don't think you did. ------------- What? |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: March 28 2012 at 14:50
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No, Dean. Both links are perfect and explains the scope of PA. Actually, I should had done it myself
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if I did not fall for the temptation of posting a short summary of War & Peace instead. Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 28 2012 at 14:56
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Ok my bad Torodd. So all that about freemasonry, collabs non-collabs was just a giggle? Bollocks as you put it? I know what you ended that sentence with, but that still doesn't take away from what is suggested ie the whole bollocks thing. Harmless fun eh...
Anyway you are right and I was wrong. You don't say anything about any games you don't like. Sorry for the misrepresentation. ------------- The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 28 2012 at 14:56
------------- What? |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: March 28 2012 at 15:16
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Good luck with "because". Seems like a serious criteria for the promotion of quality.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 28 2012 at 16:47
You are correct in that this a not meritocracy since many of the Collaborators (including many of those on the 100 MPR list) are not Prog Reviewers but (dah, what's that word? oh yeah...) Collaborators... And those Collaborators achieved their promotion by one criteria and one criteria alone - their desire to collaborate and not for their skills in reviewing (such as myself for example who could not review an album to save my life, yet was more than happy to help add artists to Crossover). Most of those who have that badge acquired it by volunteering to collaborate, not by being chosen by some secret cabal for secret membership of a secret club (as you yourself are well aware since you were "promoted" into a role you had already adopted) - this notion that we are some clandestine organisation who enact some hitherto undisclosed process in choosing the chosen is fanciful and amusing. But hey, don't let me stand in the way of a
Have a typical Scottish summer chum. ------------- What? |
Anyway, I see no problems with a secret club where the promotion criterias is not based on merits (an impossibility by default). It is harmless fun for men who likes secret societies and social statuses. Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: March 28 2012 at 17:46
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Sorry about the edits, Dean. I am really threading on eggshells here and is colliding with myself - violently- in the door at least a couple of times during a post. I am indeed retired and is extreme grateful towards yourself and PA. Without PA, I would not have gotten well paid for what I am doing now. Hence the edits and floating around in the room like a bumble bee. I do not want to sound like I am not grateful towards PA. I am !! But back to topic and back to giving myself a big black eye in the process. I would claim that the collabs system was justified in 2004-06 before Google got the blogs search engines sorted out. But today where you got a substantial amount of new bands, unreviewed albums and a gigs scene collapsing around us, the whole collabs and non-collabs system in PA is more hurting the scene than promoting it. It seems like the collabs system is just there to promote the selected few's egos and not the scene we.... sorry, you, are supposed to support. And this scene need more support than ever in this day and age where even big bands is going under due to lack of support. Although keeping out the spam is an absolute necessity, the most important thing is to give the bands exposure. That means reviews, reviews, reviews and more reviews. That means doing away with collabs and the non-collabs thing where non collabs with 500 reviews or more are second class citizens and has no stake in PA. Promote all reviewers who can string together some meaningful paragraphs. Those who does not write good reviews; guide them to write good reviews. Encourage newbies to write more reviews. Find incencitives. But finding incencitives is not possible. Therefore, the collabs thing is a distraction and an anacronism in a scene which is far better served by blogs now than PA. Blogs with thousands of readers every month (yes, I can show you some figures). Not to mention by ProgSpheres and other new services whose calendars is showing 2012 and not 2005. Services that service the prog rock scene. Besides of the retro bit, a scene that is in serious trouble. When I look at PA now, I see an archive bit which is extreme good (although bettered by Wikipedia) but which also has a lot of gaps (for example; where is Christian Vander's first band ?) and a society that reminds me a lot about the Freemasons. Harmless fun, but the "prog" bit is absent. That's when I ask: What is the point ? Massaging some egos, giving the collabs an online social life or to promote prog rock ? My advice is to do away with a structure that annoys more people than it attracts people to PA and prog rock. Do away with the collabs and keep the Admins. PA only need two layers: Admins and reviewers. That would indeed support the prog rock scene again as PA once did many moons ago. Yes, and I now sports a new black eye and a new job. Both thanx to PA. .......... and get that horrendous bad software sorted out. Edit: If you think that is a conspiracy theory, you are in much more trouble than I thought and that really pains me after putting in a lot work into PA. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 28 2012 at 18:37
Compliments and brickbats in the same breath don't do much for me I'm afraid, but thanks anyway. The purpose of the PA is not to promote bands or support a scene, it's an archive not a fanzine, it's operated for the fans of the music by the fans of the music not for the scene itself or those that would profit from that scene.
Its purpose is to support people who want to review, and it provides that service to those people without the hassle of creating and promoting their own Blog - and (being candid and honest here), having your own blog is not the best solution if you don't expend a proportional amount of time and effort in promoting it (I know because I've done that too) - an unread blog is a dead blog regardless of how prolific its owner is and while I'm sure you have figures for some Blogs, you don't have figures for every Blog and for every success there are a myriad of failures. Here we have traffic, we have through-put and we have the diversity of content backed-up by a support structure that offers a little bit more than one man and his blog, but I don't need to sell to the congregation here, even if the software provided is a little shaky at times, it hasn't prevented thousands of people from posting thousands of reviews... all collected in one place and not scattered throughout the intermess. ProgSpheres is good, and so are all the other sites that offer a select few the opportunity to display their talents at writing a good review, but here we allow all to display their love of the music regardless of how well they can write or express themselves - the only proviso is they must bring with them their love of the music, not the scene or their desire for self-promotion (though we are not ones to discourage that) - you want one review of an album and we'll give you five, ten, twenty, a hundred... That's the purpose, that's the gift and that's the draw.
If you have used the PA to promote bands or support the (?) scene (what scene? whose scene? or more accurately which scene?) then all well and good, but that is not our purpose so don't complain to us when it does not suit your requirements as well as it does ours. If the scene needs promotion tools then there is a niche to be filled, but we are not it, we are not here to actively promote new bands - we do it passively by virtue of being here, by virtue of providing a free platform for them to do it from (the forum), by virtue of having members such as yourself who can and do use those tools for that purpose, by virtue of actively recognising those bands when they come to our attention, and by virtue of having an audience who are willing to listen, and much more importantly, are willing to review when they have listened - but all that is a bonus and a side effect, it is not the raison d'ętre. New bands are important, but they are not why we are here.
------------- What? |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 28 2012 at 19:01
The forum here has given me far more exposure than the reviews did, let me assure you. In fact, my latest album's sales were, as far as I can tell, all from our forum (or personal interactions) and not due to reviews. I don't think reviews really help a band sell albums unless it pushes them into the top 20 genre chart or top 20 of the year chart. I could be wrong, but my experience suggests this. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 28 2012 at 20:13
...not sorry enough it would seem
Nope - don't think that was a conspiracy theory, just an erroneous assumption of what the purpose of the PA is.
Then I do not (and did not) think your previous comments regarding Freemasonry was a conspiracy theory either - I was being snarky and sarcastic, an unfitting and undignified response I know, but there is no valid answer to such a comment, hence the conspiracy theory simile since they too are unproven and unsubstantiated ideas that grow in stature with every drop of evidence that logically refutes them. But seriously... Freemasons?!?! - are you sure we're not the Illuminati?
 But no, provide an opinion (however misguided that may be) without the unnecessary and uncalled for snipes and jibes at the people who volunteer their time here and I'll comment without sarcastic conspiracy theory retorts  ------------- What? |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: March 28 2012 at 22:44
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Going from PA to Freemasons was a seamless transition. The principle is the same. Some old fools playing around with secrecy and grades. As with PA; harmless fun and good business. But also a bit sad. A seamless transition, in other words. More exciting than that is it not.
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 28 2012 at 23:10
------------- 
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Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: March 29 2012 at 00:07
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------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow"> https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: March 29 2012 at 00:30
------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 29 2012 at 01:32
------------- What? |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: March 29 2012 at 02:35
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What's the beef here? That people spam the page with short reviews? Or is it we elitists have glory and keep you plebeians down?  |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: March 29 2012 at 03:02
What friends? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 29 2012 at 04:34
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Knowing when to stop is an art form I have yet to master so staying true to form I shall continue...
We have vacancies in our 'secret cabal'
 for any who wish to join, the entrance criteria is (as I said) very simple: anyone who has spare time and wishes to collaborate with all the other collaborators on this site please feel free to volunteer. We cannot guarantee instant promotion into this 'oh-so-clandestine elite' because we have in the past seen people volunteer then do nothing once they have obtained that extra star. While Admins can appoint some positions, (very few in reality), it is upto the respective Team Leaders to accept those volunteers into their teams as they are the ones who have to work with them - as Admins our part in this process is the mechanics of promotion, not the selection process itself. So forgive us if a little proof of commitment is asked, such as freely volunteering to write biographies for bands that have none or helping out in some other way by providing information that can be used within the artist pages or as part of the evaluation process; and while writing reviews is not a prerequisite for admission into the Collaborator ranks, they can be used to assess the volunteer's knowledge of the subgenre they wish to help - there is little point in volunteering for the Neo team if all your reviews pan Neo prog or if you only write reviews for Zeuhl or Krautrock for example. Again, the http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13080" rel="nofollow - FAQs link I posted earlier is a good guide for those who wish to volunteer and any who wish to take up this challenge please approach one of the Team Leaders or http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=20797" rel="nofollow - Alex (harmonium.ro) as he is the Admin who has volunteered for this role, not me.
This also goes for anyone who would like to be a Prog Reviewer - this is also not a 'secret club'
it is open to all, the guidelines are in the http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13080" rel="nofollow - FAQs .thank you for your time.
dean(c)
ps: anyone who wants my job, just ask. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 29 2012 at 04:40
They would never have me in the upper ranks.  Besides you are irreplaceable.
 ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 29 2012 at 05:37
and unswayed by flattery to boot  ------------- 
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 29 2012 at 10:54
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 29 2012 at 11:19
..and Dean's albums are superb and he is an all around brainbox and lovely chap! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 29 2012 at 18:41
now I know you're taking the p  ------------- What? |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: March 30 2012 at 00:02
Busted ------------- http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - Metal Music Archives https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM |