How about "Ars Longa Vita Brevis" by The Nice? Or is that Proto Prog?

salmacis wrote: I think it could have been either T2's 'Morning' from their brilliant 'It'll All Work Out In Boomland', High Tide's 'Sanoneymous' from their eponymous album, or The Nice's 'Five Bridges'.

My choice pre dates Five Bridges.

You're probably right about 'Ars Longa...' actually, and The Nice were definitely prog rock to these ears- proto prog to me means bands like Traffic, who laid the foundations of the genre but couldn't be called 100% prog. The Nice have all the hallmarks of most prog bands, though ELP were MUCH better, in my opinion....

All of those other tracks I mentioned are from 1970.

Green and Funky wrote: ^ What year were these songs? The only early side-long tracks that I know that are for sure prog are Tarkus and Atom Heart Mother (1971).

Ars Longa Vita Brevis was 1968 I think

Snow Dog wrote: Green and Funky wrote: ^ What year were these songs? The only early side-long tracks that I know that are for sure prog are Tarkus and Atom Heart Mother (1971). Ars Longa Vita Brevis was 1968 I think

You ain't tellin' no lies  ! It was 1968, just as that other multimovement suite - In Held Twas In I, by Procol Harum. Both proto-prog in a way, but it's prog enough for me! So which one was first?

hmmm.....

Procol Harum's "in Held Twas I" was 1968, I believe that's the first real prog side long epic

The Nice's 1968-1969 "Ars Longa Vita Brevis" and "Five Bridges" are both able candidates, but are now split into seperate tracks on CD

NetsNJFan wrote: hmmm..... Procol Harum's "in Held Twas I" was 1968, I believe that's the first real prog side long epic The Nice's 1968-1969 "Ars Longa Vita Brevis" and "Five Bridges" are both able candidates, but are now split into seperate tracks on CD

Does that matter, so is Tarkus and many others!

Snow Dog wrote: NetsNJFan wrote: hmmm..... Procol Harum's "in Held Twas I" was 1968, I believe that's the first real prog side long epic The Nice's 1968-1969 "Ars Longa Vita Brevis" and "Five Bridges" are both able candidates, but are now split into seperate tracks on CD Does that matter, so is Tarkus and many others!

Where is Tarkus multiple tracks on a cd? On all the cd's I have with Tarkus on it, Tarkus is always one track.

Cygnus X-2 wrote: Snow Dog wrote: NetsNJFan wrote: hmmm..... Procol Harum's "in Held Twas I" was 1968, I believe that's the first real prog side long epic The Nice's 1968-1969 "Ars Longa Vita Brevis" and "Five Bridges" are both able candidates, but are now split into seperate tracks on CD Does that matter, so is Tarkus and many others! Where is Tarkus multiple tracks on a cd? On all the cd's I have with Tarkus on it, Tarkus is always one track.

On the original album they are seperated, you can see by looking at the grooves. On Cd it depends on who issued it, I think thatthe Sanctuary version is the one that has it as one track.

According to my CD's liner notes, Iron Butterfly's "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida" was released in the USA in June, 1968. Procol Harum's Shine On Brightly (which contained "In Held Twas In I") was released in the UK in December, 1968. Anyone know when the first release of "Ars Longa Vita Brevis" was? I know it was in late 1968 in the UK. First USA release was in February of 1969. Anyway, It looks like "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida" wins, unless I'm overlooking any epics that predate it.

btw, I agree with the reviewer above who says that Iron Butterfly are not prog, but "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida" definitely is.

Another close contender by a non-prog band was "Get Ready" by Rare Earth in 1969. 

Snow Dog wrote: Cygnus X-2 wrote: Snow Dog wrote: NetsNJFan wrote: hmmm..... Procol Harum's "in Held Twas I" was 1968, I believe that's the first real prog side long epic The Nice's 1968-1969 "Ars Longa Vita Brevis" and "Five Bridges" are both able candidates, but are now split into seperate tracks on CD Does that matter, so is Tarkus and many others! Where is Tarkus multiple tracks on a cd? On all the cd's I have with Tarkus on it, Tarkus is always one track. On the original album they are seperated, you can see by looking at the grooves. On Cd it depends on who issued it, I think thatthe Sanctuary version is the one that has it as one track.

I own the Rhino reissue (and I own an older copy, I don't why I bought it again), and they both are one track.

Walker wrote: According to my CD, Procol Harum's Shine On Brightly (which contained "In Held Twas In I") was released in December of 1968. Anyone know when the first release of "Ars Longa Vita Brevis" was? Statisticly, it should come from earlier in '68, but I don't know for sure that it did.

Yeah, I think it's that one.

Cygnus X-2 wrote: Snow Dog wrote: Cygnus X-2 wrote: Snow Dog wrote: NetsNJFan wrote: hmmm..... Procol Harum's "in Held Twas I" was 1968, I believe that's the first real prog side long epic The Nice's 1968-1969 "Ars Longa Vita Brevis" and "Five Bridges" are both able candidates, but are now split into seperate tracks on CD Does that matter, so is Tarkus and many others! Where is Tarkus multiple tracks on a cd? On all the cd's I have with Tarkus on it, Tarkus is always one track. On the original album they are seperated, you can see by looking at the grooves. On Cd it depends on who issued it, I think thatthe Sanctuary version is the one that has it as one track. I own the Rhino reissue (and I own an older copy, I don't why I bought it again), and they both are one track.

Yuo'll have to believe me then that they are seperate, Three Fayes will tell you the same.

Afs far as I know guys Ars Longa is late '68

Snow Dog wrote: Cygnus X-2 wrote: Snow Dog wrote: Cygnus X-2 wrote: Snow Dog wrote: NetsNJFan wrote: hmmm..... Procol Harum's "in Held Twas I" was 1968, I believe that's the first real prog side long epic The Nice's 1968-1969 "Ars Longa Vita Brevis" and "Five Bridges" are both able candidates, but are now split into seperate tracks on CD Does that matter, so is Tarkus and many others! Where is Tarkus multiple tracks on a cd? On all the cd's I have with Tarkus on it, Tarkus is always one track. On the original album they are seperated, you can see by looking at the grooves. On Cd it depends on who issued it, I think thatthe Sanctuary version is the one that has it as one track. I own the Rhino reissue (and I own an older copy, I don't why I bought it again), and they both are one track. Yuo'll have to believe me then that they are seperate, Three Fayes will tell you the same.

All right... I'll believe you.

C'mon-we all know that Scenes From A Memory Metropolis Part II was the first Prog Epic.

Or was it Metropolis Part I

Cygnus X-2 wrote: Snow Dog wrote: Cygnus X-2 wrote: Snow Dog wrote: Cygnus X-2 wrote: Snow Dog wrote: NetsNJFan wrote: hmmm..... Procol Harum's "in Held Twas I" was 1968, I believe that's the first real prog side long epic The Nice's 1968-1969 "Ars Longa Vita Brevis" and "Five Bridges" are both able candidates, but are now split into seperate tracks on CD Does that matter, so is Tarkus and many others! Where is Tarkus multiple tracks on a cd? On all the cd's I have with Tarkus on it, Tarkus is always one track. On the original album they are seperated, you can see by looking at the grooves. On Cd it depends on who issued it, I think thatthe Sanctuary version is the one that has it as one track. I own the Rhino reissue (and I own an older copy, I don't why I bought it again), and they both are one track. Yuo'll have to believe me then that they are seperate, Three Fayes will tell you the same. All right... I'll believe you.

Sometimes I don't understand the people who print these CD,s. For example, on Elps Works Vol 1 , the Piano Concerto, which is in 3 Movements, is one track!

BaldFriede wrote: It matters if the record company puts pauses between the "tracks". Example for that is the first CD-edition of "Please Don't Touch" by Steve Hackett. The songs all merge into each other, yet for some reason the record company that produced the first CD-version of "Please Don't Touch" was of the opinion there should be a few seconds silence between the tracks. which made the album unlistenable to in the CD-version.

Although we were'nt talking about pauses between tracks, I've only noticed what you mention between these tracks!

7. Land of a Thousand Autumns (1:57)
8. Please Don't Touch (3:39)

If only Hackett could get all his early albums on Camino Records ( his own label) all these problems could be sorted out!

That Zappa track is barely prog rock- it's just bizarre, with weird barking noises, monologues et al. over a rock drumming backtrack.

I think I'd read that the first four Steve Hackett albums were to be remastered by Virgin, which will hopefully put right the dreadful flaws of the earlier ones.

To be quite honest, I don't think that Zappa track is ANYTHING- it's unclassifiable, and to me, unlistenable- I always stop the CD before this 'song' comes on. Actually, I think the first UK vinyl of 'Freak Out' actually omitted it from the running order, showing how unmarketable that song was (that said, I think they cut other, slightly poppier, if thats not a contradiction in terms with Zappa, tracks too, defeating that theory )

In fact, it's suddenly hit me that Zappa's 'King Kong', from 'Uncle Meat' could be a contender, which was one of the first tracks that I would identify as 'progressive' ever attempted.

Even earlier, Zappa's 'Lumpy Gravy', which was in fact 2 sides long, dates from 1968 (recorded in 1967 I think, too) and that was possibly the most daring album ever attempted by someone who was considered a 'rock' musician at the time.

Soft Machine's 'Third' album was probably the first (double) album to feature 4 side long tracks from 1970, and was, I think, the last until Yes' 'Tales From Topographic Oceans'.

I've edited it...

The first side long track by someone that could be called prog probably is 'The Return Of The Son Of Monster Magnet'- I may not personally find it that progressive, but accept others may not agree (apologies if you felt I was trying to force my views- thus why I edited my comments).

This may be a left-field choice, but it's possible the first song to fill 2 sides, though it is admittedly split into 4 separate movements, could have been John Coltrane's 'A Love Supreme' from 1965, though I imagine people would possibly just call that a jazz album.

gabbel ratchett wrote: I have that album, bought it new in the '60's, side 4 is indeed only filled with "Return of the son of the monster magnet". Although it is short, it is a side long track. No time restraints were included in this topic to my knowledge. And to say that it is barely prog is to say that it is prog. Granted, it is not like "Suppers Ready" or "Close To The Edge",("Close To The Edge" is only 18:50) what would you expect in 1966?

This Zappa song is only about 12 minutes long, so I'll go for either " In Held Twas in I" or "Ars Longa" , both from 1968

This thread has people saying Zappa's Freak Out ISN'T prog while IN-a-Godda-Da-Vida is?

There's no hope for this genre.... 

gabbel ratchett wrote: Even if you count Iron Butterfly as prog, The Mothers/Zappa "Freak Out" still has them beat by several years.

But its only 12 minutes!

But it still took up a full side of the LP when it was released. This thread had no mention of a time duration when it was posted. Most US pop albums from the 1960's barely had more than 18 minutes of material per side on them.

There's something strange about The Return of the Son of Monster Magnet.

Sometimes I love the track and another times I hate it, am I UNDEFINIED? Or am I crazy?

I love the Suzy's Creamcheese's speech and the freak screams and the drums throughout the piece. Am I bizarre? But that's only Frank Zappa.

By the way, that "song" it's not epic, but it's prog and it's a side long.

gabbel ratchett wrote: But it still took up a full side of the LP when it was released. This thread had no mention of a time duration when it was posted. Most US pop albums from the 1960's barely had more than 18 minutes of material per side on them.

I don't care, its a cop out. Sounds like he had 3 sides of material and bunged it on the last side. OK you count it as the first, I don't! We differ in opinion and thats fine!

Truly, it is fine.

Thats not one of my favorite Zappa tracks anyway. I was just trying to answer the  question. I am still hopeful that someone will come up with a track that predates Monster Magnet.

Any of you Zappaphiles know what Frank had to say about Monster Magnet?

Aerosol Grey wrote: This thread has people saying Zappa's Freak Out ISN'T prog while IN-a-Godda-Da-Vida is? There's no hope for this genre....

I don't recall anyone saying 'Freak Out' wasn't prog- I love the rest of the album,and I think it's one of the first progressive rock albums myself. But I just hate the last track....

In a Gadda da Vida Prog'? I always believed it was the clearest example of pure psychedelia, not even proto prog'.

But it's a good song.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: In a Gadda da Vida Prog'? I always believed it was the clearest example of pure psychedelia, not even proto prog'. But it's a good song. Iván

Psychedelic music is one kind of proto prog, IMO. "In a Gadda da Vida" may not be as free as the early krautrock, but I think it is an important step towards prog. And I like that music (grew up with it, in fact. My parents were 18 when I was born in Dec 1968 in San Francisco. Do I need to say more? Bead curtains, incense sticks, love-ins, sweet smoke - I saw it all. My parents hid nothing from me).

The 1967 movie "The Trip", starring Peter Fonda and Dennis Hopper, has one scene towards the end in which a band plays some really wild psychedelic music. I love that part of it.

And, speaking of psychedelic music, the movie version of "Twin Peaks" has a long scene in which some band plays what I would call "space blues". Really trippy music. Does anyone know who plays it?

Ars Longa Vita Brevis was released in November 1968 in the UK, and came out before Procol Harum's Shine on Brightly (December 1968) - so the Nice wins by a short head.

Even though I like it, I don't think In a Gadda Da Vida is prog - it just sounds like a long psychedelic song to me with no prog-like structure. Re Zappa's Freak Out - it is prog but 12 minutes doesn't count as a proper 'side' in my (nitpickingly British) view.

Logos wrote: Snow Dog wrote: OK you count it as the first, I don't! We differ in opinion and thats fine! It is a fact that it took a whole side on the original vinyl, everyone knows it's true, and yet you say it's doesn't take a whole side. You must be a bit dumb.

And you're obviously an arsehole!

Drachen Theaker wrote: Ars Longa Vita Brevis was released in November 1968 in the UK, and came out before Procol Harum's Shine on Brightly (December 1968) - so the Nice wins by a short head. Even though I like it, I don't think In a Gadda Da Vida is prog - it just sounds like a long psychedelic song to me with no prog-like structure. Re Zappa's Freak Out - it is prog but 12 minutes doesn't count as a proper 'side' in my (nitpickingly British) view.

It seems the Nice wins (slightly)

good for them a brilliant band

and Zappa's Monster Magnet is not a side long

NetsNJFan wrote: Drachen Theaker wrote: Ars Longa Vita Brevis was released in November 1968 in the UK, and came out before Procol Harum's Shine on Brightly (December 1968) - so the Nice wins by a short head. Even though I like it, I don't think In a Gadda Da Vida is prog - it just sounds like a long psychedelic song to me with no prog-like structure. Re Zappa's Freak Out - it is prog but 12 minutes doesn't count as a proper 'side' in my (nitpickingly British) view.   It seems the Nice wins (slightly) good for them a brilliant band and Zappa's Monster Magnet is not a side long

Thanks Nets and any others that can see sense! And thanks Drachen Theaker for the release dates! Now wheres that idiot Cygnus X-2 who started this thread! Hey we got an answer buddy!

Snow Dog wrote: NetsNJFan wrote: Drachen Theaker wrote: Ars Longa Vita Brevis was released in November 1968 in the UK, and came out before Procol Harum's Shine on Brightly (December 1968) - so the Nice wins by a short head. Even though I like it, I don't think In a Gadda Da Vida is prog - it just sounds like a long psychedelic song to me with no prog-like structure. Re Zappa's Freak Out - it is prog but 12 minutes doesn't count as a proper 'side' in my (nitpickingly British) view.   It seems the Nice wins (slightly) good for them a brilliant band and Zappa's Monster Magnet is not a side long Thanks Nets and any others that can see sense! And thanks Drachen Theaker for the release dates! Now wheres that idiot Cygnus X-2 who started this thread! Hey we got an answer buddy!

No problem guys. It warms the cockles of my heart. We may have lost an empire, we may get bombed by terrorists but we CAN legitimately lay claim to 'history's first truly side long prog rock concept track'

Snow Dog wrote: NetsNJFan wrote: Drachen Theaker wrote: Ars Longa Vita Brevis was released in November 1968 in the UK, and came out before Procol Harum's Shine on Brightly (December 1968) - so the Nice wins by a short head. Even though I like it, I don't think In a Gadda Da Vida is prog - it just sounds like a long psychedelic song to me with no prog-like structure. Re Zappa's Freak Out - it is prog but 12 minutes doesn't count as a proper 'side' in my (nitpickingly British) view.   It seems the Nice wins (slightly) good for them a brilliant band and Zappa's Monster Magnet is not a side long Thanks Nets and any others that can see sense! And thanks Drachen Theaker for the release dates! Now wheres that idiot Cygnus X-2 who started this thread! Hey we got an answer buddy!

I can see, you stupid mongrel!

EDIT: I thought this would be a good topic of discussion. Thanks Nets, Snowie, and Drachen Theaker.

Its been fun,

Thanks kids, 

Logos wrote: Snow Dog wrote: Logos wrote: Snow Dog wrote: OK you count it as the first, I don't! We differ in opinion and thats fine! It is a fact that it took a whole side on the original vinyl, everyone knows it's true, and yet you say it's doesn't take a whole side. You must be a bit dumb. And you're obviously an arsehole! And you're obviously taking things just a little bit too seriously!

Am I? Have I taken you calling me dumb to seriously? If I misunderstood I apologise!

(It certainly looks like you called me dumb though, am I missing something?)

Has to be Todd Rundgren's 'A Treatise On Cosmic Fire' from his 'Initiation' album- think it was from 1975, and is a whopping 36 (!) minutes on one side.

However, I have to say this is one of the biggest pieces of garbage I've ever heard in my life....

Snow Dog wrote: Am I? Have I taken you calling me dumb to seriously? If I misunderstood I apologise! (It certainly looks like you called me dumb though, am I missing something?)

Well can you say you didn't deserve it?

And does a message always need smileys at the end for people understand it's not totally serious?

Well here goes..  

Logos wrote: Snow Dog wrote: Am I? Have I taken you calling me dumb to seriously? If I misunderstood I apologise! (It certainly looks like you called me dumb though, am I missing something?) Well can you say you didn't deserve it? And does a message always need smileys at the end for people understand it's not totally serious? Well here goes..

In what way did I possibly deserve it? For having a different opinion? So if you call me a f**king twat c**t sh*thead I should laugh too?

Snow Dog wrote: Logos wrote: Snow Dog wrote: Am I? Have I taken you calling me dumb to seriously? If I misunderstood I apologise! (It certainly looks like you called me dumb though, am I missing something?) Well can you say you didn't deserve it? And does a message always need smileys at the end for people understand it's not totally serious? Well here goes..   In what way did I possibly deserve it? For having a different opinion? So if you call me a f**king twat c**t sh*thead I should laugh too?

well I will laugh

but then again maybe not.

Facts are not matters of opinion .. ?

In my opinion Close to the Edge was actually only about 10 minutes long. Some jerks here seem to think it's over 18 minutes!!

Logos wrote: Facts are not matters of opinion .. ? In my opinion Close to the Edge was actually only about 10 minutes long. Some jerks here seem to think it's over 18 minutes!!

You've lost me! I've no idea what you're talking about!

Logos wrote: Where's Tony R when you need some one to crack a joke to lighten the mood?!

I still don't understand what problem you have with me?

Snow Dog wrote: I still don't understand what problem you have with me?

You seemed to have problems first!

I just made a post and forgot to put a smiley in the end ( people just take everything so seriously if don't, and you can say anything you like if you just correct with a few smileys  ) and you got all angry and stuff.

I don't have any problems what-so-ever.

Life is good! It's summer. The women seem to be at their most beautiful. So why should I have any problems?

Logos wrote: Snow Dog wrote: I still don't understand what problem you have with me? You seemed to have problems first! I just made a post and forgot to put a smiley in the end ( people just take everything so seriously if don't, and you can say anything you like if you just correct with a few smileys  ) and you got all angry and stuff. I don't have any problems what-so-ever. Life is good! It's summer. The women seem to be at their most beautiful. So why should I have any problems?

I had problems first? No I was very happy until you're post ruined my day!!!!
You attack me with no provocation, jumping into an amicable conversation!!!!!
Yes life was good. Now it has turned sour!!!

I never attacked you!

Look in the mirror dude  ...

Logos wrote: I never attacked you! Look in the mirror dude  ...

You did, you called me dumb!

Snow Dog wrote: Logos wrote: Snow Dog wrote: I still don't understand what problem you have with me? You seemed to have problems first! I just made a post and forgot to put a smiley in the end ( people just take everything so seriously if don't, and you can say anything you like if you just correct with a few smileys  ) and you got all angry and stuff. I don't have any problems what-so-ever. Life is good! It's summer. The women seem to be at their most beautiful. So why should I have any problems? I had problems first? No I was very happy until you're post ruined my day!!!! You attack me with no provocation, jumping into an amicable conversation!!!!! Yes life was good. Now it has turned sour!!!

Sorry I forgot the "Smileys"!

The Doctor wrote: Yes you did.  No I didn't.  Yes you did.  No I didn't.  Yes you did.  No I didn't.  And on and on it goes.

The evidence is in the thread QED!

Logos wrote: Facts are not matters of opinion .. ? In my opinion Close to the Edge was actually only about 10 minutes long. Some jerks here seem to think it's over 18 minutes!!

Ugh..... Are you on crack or something?

gabbel ratchett wrote: When Michael Jackson first wrote "Close To The Edge" it was over 47 minutes long. After he sold it to Yes they cut it down to less than 20 minutes before they recorded it. Some poor folks were sold defective copies of the record that had the track cut down to about 10 minutes.

Did Michael Jackson write Close to the Edge and that version was 47 minutes long? What is next? Marillion become punk and change the name into FUGAZI? Am I Drunken or what?

 

Logos wrote: Well Snow Dog said the truth: I'm obviously an arsehole!

No you're not! And I'm not dumb. If it was a joke, then I failed to understand it. As I don't "know" you, it is wise to use Emoticons, how else am I supposed to understand you're intentions?

People I know on this site don't need to so much as I am familiar with them through shared experience on this site!

I feel you have misread what I have said on this thread and then called me dumb! If I am wrong about this, please answer and correct me!