MASTER OF PUPPETS
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Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: General Music Discussions
Forum Description: Discuss and create polls about all types of music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8211
Printed Date: February 16 2025 at 23:19
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Topic: MASTER OF PUPPETS
Posted By: Publius
Subject: MASTER OF PUPPETS
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:01
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OK, a subject much dodged around, Lets go in all guns blazing...in terms of prog metal, what do y'all make of the Master Of Puppets album? I personally think, in terms of prog metal, that it is rather prog and is definitely an influence for many bands that are actually known as prog metal. Come on, just listen to this album! I hate thrash metal but I LOVE Master Of Puppets. The song structures are inventive, listenable and very varied. They are also of a very substantial length. Your turn! :P ------------- I'm so prog, I clap in 9/8 |
Replies:
Posted By: Arioch
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:04
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Metallica=non prog. ------------- Knight of the Swords Lord of Entropy Duke of Chaos |
Posted By: Publius
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:08
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Thanks for that...anyone else? ------------- I'm so prog, I clap in 9/8 |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:09
Absolutely right!!! It's the first prog metal album - at least, first in terms of what is now called prog metal (as everyone knows, Rush were first). Ride The Lightning is a kind of proto-prog metal, but Master really underpins everything that's happening in prog metal now - nearly 20 years on. Even Dream Theater seem to recognise this, as they covered the album in it's entirity - and had real difficulties doing so. It's prog metal alright. No question. |
Publius wrote:Posted By: Cygnus X-2
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:09
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It has progressive moments, but nothing I would call Prog Metal. And Orion is easily one of my favorite instrumentals. ------------- 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:11
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I wonder how Metallica might have developed if Cliff hadn't died. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: MANTICORE
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:11
in that case... I vote for.....And justice for all.. -------------  |
Posted By: Zargus
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:12
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I absolutly think its prog metal, nothing to talk about yust lisen to it its very progresiv... and a great album. ------------- 
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Posted By: MANTICORE
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:13
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but metallica not prog ....heavy metal. ------------- |
Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:17
I totally agree with that |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:19
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go home ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:20
I agree. But Hendrix and Deep Purple are not Metal.... |
Posted By: Arioch
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:20
It must be that single same unchanging beat that echoes so loudly through the speakers , that it makes your ears bleed, that makes it so progressive. ------------- Knight of the Swords Lord of Entropy Duke of Chaos |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:21
Master Of Puppets is, and Ride The Lightning also. The rest is raw Metal (Kill 'Em All), Thrash (... And Justice For All), Modern (Commercial) Metal (The Black Album, Load, Reload) and Emocore Foobar Trash (St. Anger). ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:22
unchanging??? I love those statements that show that they didn't even listen to the album. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:24
See my thread in non-prog music about the history of metal. I hadn't thought that Hendrix was metal, but I've been told otherwise by many of the older (err... more experienced) members here. In fact, High Tide (1968) seem to be the first prog metal band. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Dreamer
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:24
| I really like the album, but NOT prog, in my opinion at least |
Posted By: BleedingGum
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:25
Yep... that's the only reason.  ------------- ...this is called....BleedingGum ... ! |
Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:25
Eh... Well it all depends on your views on such things, but oh well... |
Posted By: Publius
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:26
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I'm sticking with my prog opinion. :) ------------- I'm so prog, I clap in 9/8 |
Posted By: Arioch
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:26
I love those statements which refer to statements, that refer to other statements, etc..... The only change I hear is the level of ringing in my ear at their bloody loud music. ------------- Knight of the Swords Lord of Entropy Duke of Chaos |
Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:27
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All right, then what was your point in starting this thread? Trying to convince extremely close-minded people or something? Cause In my mind, that's pretty hopeless. |
Posted By: Publius
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:29
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Heh, just wanted to know what kind of reception they got. ------------- I'm so prog, I clap in 9/8 |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:30
You sound like my mother. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Odd24
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:31
Only for the odd signatures.... .. ------------- Right down the line |
Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:37
But Odd Signatures don't make you Progressive at all. |
Posted By: HeirToRuin
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:38
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Master of Puppets is to incorporate fusion with progressive tendencies,
but it's still largely just a thrash album with an occassional odd time
signature thrown in for effect. I will give the instrumental sections on MoP and Orion to be quite proggy, but by and large, the album is thrash metal in 4/4. ------------- ARTEMIA - http://www.reverbnation.com/artemiamusic" rel="nofollow - http://www.reverbnation.com/artemiamusic L.i.E. - http://www.reverbnati |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:38
Master Of Puppets was unlike any other metal album before. It's not just the signatures. It's the way the guitars are recorded in the intro - 3-4 guitars layered on top of another to create a baroque harpsichord like sound. And the interludes, inspired by classical music, with multi voice solos arranged like violin duets normaly are. And the riffing, which is nothing special today, but was introduced on a few metal albums back then, Master Of Puppets being one of them. And the downtuning of one of the strings (The Thing That Should Not Be), which enabled them to play riffs that would normally not be possible. And of course Orion. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:39
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To call it one unchanging beat is absurd. I'm not keen on all that many Metallica songs - and I'll agree Lars is not a good or even vaguely subtle drummer, but compare Metallica to most of the '80s Bay Area and they sound like bloody Yes! (that's not to put any other bands down, I'm totally digging that sound at the moment). + Plenty of AJFA and most more recent stuff is not in the remotest bit loud - the intro and verses of "One", long sections of "To Live is to Die", the intro to the title track... surely the quiet bits are outweighed by the loud bits but there's more dynamic variation in "One" or "To Live is to Die" than there is in 21st Century Schizoid Man.
In essence, my view on Metallica: A competent band who stretched thrash to new places ("progressed", if you will), with some bits I find absolutely sublime (2-3 tracks an album, roughly), lots that leave me lukewarm, and recently some completely turgid pieces of sh*t. Generally not my cup of tea, and (perhaps for that reason, but I'd like to think not) I don't feel they're at all at home on a prog site. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:41
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Let me recap ... the other guy complained about odd signatures and signature changes, and that they don't make something prog. Now you come along and say that it isn't prog, because there's not enough of them ... BTW: 4/4 doesn't may that something is easy to play. Ask Meshuggah. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:41
| + I think The Thing That Should Not Be is bloody awful! I don't think that large a proportion of MOP is in 4/4 though, or at least not entirely, they tend to cut short bars at the end of riffs (or 4 repeats). That's done in the title track and Damage Inc., although I can't remember offhand any others. |
Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 17:46
I agree. |
Posted By: Manunkind
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 18:05
------------- "In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun |
Posted By: Ed_The_Dead
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 18:07
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Metallica prog... hmmmm... The problem is I hate them and can't give a opinion... In what way is Master of Puppets more prog than 7th Son of a 7th Son?(I'm Still forcing THEM in here! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ed_the_dead/?chartstyle=asimpleblue5"> 
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Posted By: Lyzarrd
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 18:16
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What it seems here is that alot, if not most metal, has this
'progressive' structure, with shifting time signatures, interludes,
among many other things. Basically, if it isn't pop metal (Motley Crue,
White Snake etc.) than its progressive. I guess I tend to look at metal being a bit like fusion except metal fuses classical style/structure with gritty or heavily distorted guitars. Sounds like prog to me but I feel as if metal branched off into its own genre all together. ------------- Can you tell me where my country lies... |
Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 18:18
Oh C'mon Metallica isn't that bad. If you want bad, I reckon you get some St. Anger |
Posted By: Ed_The_Dead
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 18:26
Muahaha I love St. Anger... It sucks soooo much ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ed_the_dead/?chartstyle=asimpleblue5">
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Posted By: Dream Theater
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 18:29
------------- [IMG]http://www.travelwithachallenge.com/Images/Travel_Article_Library/Sacred-Travel/Machu-Picchu-350.jpg"> [IMG]http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/panchopc1/machupicchu-1.jpg"> |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 18:31
Dream Theater = Not flexible. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Ed_The_Dead
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 18:35
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Money gooooood!!!! Napster baaaaaaaaaaaad!!!!! Thinking baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad!!!!!!!! Beer gooooooooood!!!!!
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ed_the_dead/?chartstyle=asimpleblue5">
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Posted By: frenchie
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 18:42
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IMO metallica's only prog tunes - (excluding the crap post black album albums) ------------- The Worthless Recluse 
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Posted By: Publius
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 18:45
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Hehehe...I assume thats a reference to the Metallica of today... Yep, they're mindless corporate whores now. Such a shame good bands have to go out on a bad note (a la Genesis). ------------- I'm so prog, I clap in 9/8 |
Posted By: Publius
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 18:46
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(That refers to Ed_The_Dead's post) ------------- I'm so prog, I clap in 9/8 |
Posted By: Ed_The_Dead
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 18:47
You don't know the anti - metallica napster movies??!!!! .. Damn waait I have to find the link....------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ed_the_dead/?chartstyle=asimpleblue5">
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Posted By: Retrovertigo
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 18:47
| Who cares if they're prog or not, it's a sweet album, enjoy it. |
Posted By: herbie53
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 18:48
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Okay, in the days of my youth I liked very much of Master of Puppets, but never thinked of it in a prog style... Metallica was really innovative among the others metal bands, but this is what they really are: A METAL BAND (don't matter if thrash or alternative metal, in actual days). If anyone ask to James Hetfield if he likes prog rock, probably he will give a kick in your ass |
Posted By: Ed_The_Dead
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 18:50
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http://www.campchaos.com/show.php?iID=233 - http://www.campchaos.com/show.php?iID=233 Theres my favourite, metallica milionaire..... Move around the page to find more.. Any metallica anti-fan will enjoy this (I loved it ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ed_the_dead/?chartstyle=asimpleblue5">
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Posted By: decypher
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 19:17
they have to be prog: yours, I like this better...  |
Posted By: bamba
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 19:28
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whatttt the hell that horrible metal sound. i like a little orion but "no way(guey no seas)" that can be called prog at all ------------- Learning Flute [Amigo de Manticore y Memowakeman] (primo)[IMG]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2187/2437702285_fbb450500d_o.jpg |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 19:31
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Master of Puppets is NOT prog metal.And Justice for All is prog metal IMHO. -------------  |
Posted By: rushlady2112
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 19:42
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Early Metallica can be catagorized as thrash metal as a whole - Kill Em All, Ride the Lightning, Master of Puppets, and And Justice For All. After those albums, it all went downhill for Metallica. I agree with the posters who say that Metallica may have some individual prog-metal tunes, but I wouldn't overall catagorize them as prog-metal, nor place an entire album in the prog-metal catagory. Metallica had so much potential - those first 4 albums are among my favorites of any band. ------------- The more that things change, the more they stay the same. If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. |
Posted By: decypher
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 19:52
what is a 'newbie'? what would it change if I weren't one (if I am one, hm, probably, it's beneath my sceen name?!)? if it would change something - do you suggest that I say hello to you when I reached about 112 postings? yours, I agree to the second part btw. I was joking. if at all then maybe ...and justice for all. I don't care anyway, but it seems to be important to some to categorize. |
Posted By: Salmacis72
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 20:44
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Master Of Puppets is great, a classic, but I prefer ...And Justice For All. It's just too bad the bass is mixed completely off the album. ------------- 
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Posted By: Bj-1
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 20:57
I have to diagree with you. Slayer's "Hell Awaits" came out one year earlier than Master Of Puppets, and that album is very progressive and complex at times. But i think "And Justice For all" is even more progressive than both. P.S.- Master of Puppets is an awesome album ------------- RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on! |
Posted By: HeirToRuin
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 21:45
I don't think I said that at all about "not enough" odd time signatures. I wouldn't call "Them Bones" by Alice In Chains in 7/8 progressive at all. Also, I didn't say 4/4 was necessarily easy. I only said Master of Puppets was largely in 4/4. Reading comprehension... Meshuggah plays polyrhythms. Metallica does not. I mastered Metallica's drum parts when I was 15. Almost 15 years later, I am scared of Meshuggah. ------------- ARTEMIA - http://www.reverbnation.com/artemiamusic" rel="nofollow - http://www.reverbnation.com/artemiamusic L.i.E. - http://www.reverbnati |
Posted By: HeirToRuin
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 21:47
How can you call Damage Inc prog?? It's thrash song through and through. ------------- ARTEMIA - http://www.reverbnation.com/artemiamusic" rel="nofollow - http://www.reverbnation.com/artemiamusic L.i.E. - http://www.reverbnati |
Posted By: Cinema
Date Posted: June 30 2005 at 23:09
Hendrix? Metal? Not in my book. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: July 01 2005 at 02:56
The main difference between "Hell Awaits" and "Master..." is that "Hell Awaits" sticks purely to a thrash metal format and style and makes no attempt to be anything other than a thrash metal album, albeit a quite incredible one despite the awful production. The same argument could be taken to "Kill 'Em All" - which blew away everything that had previously described metal in the past. Metallica redefined metal 5 times, once with each album up to the self titled "black" album. "Master Of Puppets" was the lynchpin - the album that gave rise to the music we now call prog metal. "...And Justice For All" took it to the next level, although I feel there's too much "complexity for complexity's sake" (given that complexity is relative). Both albums have been plundered to death by so-called progressive metal bands. I say so-called, because Metallica WERE progressive - they sounded like no-one before them and added subtleties and insights to metal that few had attempted before them. Budgie and Diamond Head are the obvious influences - but Metallica did not simply nick their riffs, instead, they covered songs from the bands in their own style. Something modern "prog metal" bands could learn from. Megadeth were even more progressive, it's true, but, like Slayer, didn't really venture outside of the metal arena - at least, not on the early albums. Slayer could in no way be considered Prog, IMO - they never tried to reach outside of the metal "box" - more they developed their own style of thrash metal to it's ultimate extremities, in Reign In Blood (an absolute killer of an album). Progressive != Prog Rock. I'm not sure of the inclusion of Metallica in the archives - but the first 4 albums should certainly have honourary places. Even "Kill 'Em All" has pseudo-prog-metal classics like "Jump In The Fire", "The Four Horsemen", "Seek And Destroy" and "Metal Militia". The closed-minded will probably hear nothing but repetitive riffs in those tracks - but I call for the comparison with Hawkwind, who used repetitive riffs in order to bring about a hypnotic state. For me, "Kill 'Em All" achieves something very similar. The next three albums all progress that style several levels each. That's why Metallica were not only progressive, but true Progressive Metal in every sense. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 01 2005 at 02:57
Those were your words: Master of Puppets is to incorporate fusion with progressive tendencies, but it's still largely just a thrash album with an occassional odd time signature thrown in for effect. Regarding Meshuggah: Thank you for rephrasing my post. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Valarius
Date Posted: July 01 2005 at 03:59
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"Master Of Puppets" is an amazing album, but isn't prog metal. It may have inspired what we know as prog metal, but when it all comes down to it, "MOP" is thrash metal. IMO "And Justice For All" is a lot proggier, and that's still a metal album. |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: July 01 2005 at 05:32
| Please, one time for all, stop polluting this forum with your teenage "music"!!! |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 01 2005 at 05:50
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You remind me of the teacher in "The Wall", or the screaming mother in "Joe's Garage". ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: July 01 2005 at 06:29
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I don't get it. Whats "teenage" about Metallica? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: July 01 2005 at 07:06
| I can do nothing for you anymore... |
Posted By: goose
Date Posted: July 01 2005 at 07:09
| Is there any difference between metal being called teenage music and fifty years ago rock being called teenage music? |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 01 2005 at 07:16
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I hope so ... I want my mind to remain open. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: July 01 2005 at 07:19
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I don't need you to do anything for me, neither does anyone here! You don't like Heavy Metal......So?.....And you're point is? You obviously feel superior to people who like this type of music, but you're not!.......I am though! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Manunkind
Date Posted: July 01 2005 at 08:17
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Plenty of people wouldn't even call some of the stuff you seem to listen to (psychadelic, kraut) "music". At best they'd say that it is full of boring, pointless solos, the songs have no structure and that the lyrics are drivel. At worst they'd just say it's worthless noise. Not that I'm one of them. I have limited means of checking out this stuff, but for the most part what I've heard I like. Gong, Amon Dull, a little Can here and there... I wouldn't have even tried if I shared your attitude. Fortunately, the Dalai Lama encourages having an open mind and an open heart, and this relates to music as well. His advice has never failed me. So if you want to keep arguing whether MoP is "true" prog, argue it out with the Dalai Lama ------------- "In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun |
Posted By: sideways
Date Posted: July 01 2005 at 11:05
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Well, from my experience, there was no Metal when I was a teenager. My Mom and Dad always referred to my groups at the time as "Teenage garbage music" Lets see...who were those bands? Led Zeppelin Pink Floyd ELP you get the idea ------------- "Who would wish this on our people?..And proclaim that his will be done" Sacrificed Sons - Dream Theater |
Posted By: glass house
Date Posted: July 01 2005 at 11:39
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Irony: Put Metallica in the Archives just as meshuggah ( still amazed about that. ). Master is one of the classics of heavy music. Nothing prog about that. Disposable heroes is a gigantic piece of music. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: July 01 2005 at 15:12
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Master may be 19 years old, but it's fans must be in their 30s or 40s by now... And what ARE Meshuggah doing in the archives If that's prog, I'm giving up my day job as a Ballerina in the Bolshoi. |
Posted By: glass house
Date Posted: July 03 2005 at 16:43
| To Certified Who HAS decided that Meshuggah are in the archives ???? |
Posted By: IDDQD
Date Posted: July 03 2005 at 18:41
| For Progressive Speed Metal, check out Watchtower, Coroner, and Rigor Mortis. |
Posted By: Bj-1
Date Posted: July 04 2005 at 15:30
But what about Iron Maiden's 'Powerslave'? That one is even more progressive than 'Master..', and it came out 2 years before it. I think Powerslave is one of the very first Prog metal albums. ------------- RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on! |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 04 2005 at 15:37
I don't think it's progressive. It's my favourite Iron Maiden (even before Number Of The Beast), but I fail to see how it is progressive. I created an interesting poll, maybe you want to vote there to bring the subject up again (just search for "maritime" in the prog polls). I don't think that every piece of "interesting" music has to be included in the archives. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: July 04 2005 at 18:57
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One of the most important things about music that you don't seem to understand it there are no age limits or boundaries.Anyone can listen to anything,music is timeless and ageless.You have a very closed mind. ------------- |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: July 05 2005 at 03:13
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I wish I knew - it's a complete mystery to me. I listened to Catch 33 several times, and while it's interesting, and the band experiment on one or two progressive levels, the music certainly isn't prog rock by any stretch of the imagination - or am I just being harsh? I've just located a copy of I, and will listen to more of their music to see if I've got it wrong somehow, as I never berate a band without listening deeply and analytically to their music first.
On Iron Maiden; while they were progressive for a metal band - and one of my favourite bands in the early 1980s until Metallica came along - Master Of Puppets goes way beyond anything Maiden, or indeed any other metal band ever did in terms of progressiveness, IMO. As one example, the sheer variety and (relative) complexity of the music is quite staggering; everything from slow rock tempo to out and out thrash (Orion and Damage Inc. respectively) to powerful self-referential music (Battery). What Metallica did with the thrash genre on that album is mind-blowing when you consider what went before in metal; they unleashed the potentials which others have since exploited. While Maiden's offering was admittedly way ahead of the game, Metallica's music rewrote the rules of the game and stomped on the old ones. You simply won't find anything like Master that gives it a precedent, apart from, maybe, Ride The Lightning. |